From: James Cheshire
Date: 2003-02-11 23:49:14 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: New file uploaded to shavian
It's Shaw Roman No. 1 for Macintosh.
James
--- In shavian@..., shavian@...
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
> group.
>
> File : /fonts/macintosh/Shaw Roman No. 1
> Uploaded by : columbellidae <columbellidae@y...>
> Description :
>
> You can access this file at the URL
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/fonts/macintosh/
Shaw%20Roman%20No.%201
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> columbellidae <columbellidae@y...>
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2003-02-16 23:08:17 #
Subject: [shavian] Revisting the International Shaw Alphabet
I was having a discussion with Steve on your Ikon Board, And we came
to the conclusion that Quikskript with 40 letters is very similar to
the proposed International introductory subset of the Shaw Alphabet.
I have to thank Steve for pointing out the numbered subset of
Quikskript of 40 basic English sounds that Kingsley Read intended to
focus on, after his experiance with the Shavian Alphabet.
It gives me solid confirmation that we are going in the right
direction. Apparently, Kingsley Read decided to revise the Shaw
Alphabet concept in the direction of a simpler set of sounds to
represent.
I asked myself, "How does numbered Quikscript match up with Hugh's
numbered subset of the Shaw Alphabet".
And are all the letters essentially the same?
According to a post from Steve the Quikskript letters are as ordered
as follows.
In Quikscript, it is "P, B, T, D, K, 'Go', 'THaw', 'THey', F, V, S,
Z, SH, ZH, 'CHeer', J, Y, W, H, WH, NG, M, N, L, R, 'It',
EA, 'Ever,' 'Able,' 'At,' 'mY,' cALm,' 'hAUl,' 'On,' OY, 'Utter,'
OU, 'tOE,' 'fOOt,' & 'OOze.'
These letters are numbered 1 through 40.
After comparing them with Hugh's list,
It appears to me that the only differences are that Quikskript
retains the On/cALm distinction which has been consolidated by Hugh
in the Shaw Alphabet and adds another letter for the disputed "wh"
sound.
Steve & I consider these addition 2 letters of only optional use as
most non-British English speakers do not make a clear distinction
between w/wh and o/ah.
But these 2 extra letters do explain the difference between Hugh's
Shaw Subset of 38 and the 40 numbered Quikskript letters.
Personally, I think 38 is a very good number of basic letters to
introduce to a novice, And then later, once he is competent with
those we can then bring up the additional/optional letters that might
apply only to his particular accent group.
As to whether there are any other common English sounds which I
would included with Basic 38, I can only think of one, and it is
probably better to introduce it after the Basic 38 sounds.
It would be useful, though.
Hugh, this is the technical issue that I put off discussing.
I was thinking of introducing a Dot letter to indicate a Schwa sound
construct.
I think many people don't bother to put in the implicit Schwa sound
at the end of a word, just before the consonant, where it makes the
last consonant into a syllable.
WHILE most of time it is better not to differentiate a Schwa and
the "up" sound, I think the Schwa construct might be an exception
where we would want to retain a seperate letter.
Look at my examples and see what I mean..
For example, girl, walker, mirror, blossom, picket, foxes,
fishes, places, wicked, tale, table, taken, spoken, token and tire
all have an indistinct or Schwa vowel sound merged with the final
consonant.
I sometimes hear the Schwa sound after a vowel to make up some of the
seldom heard dipthongs, ia, oa, ua, that only seem to be common in
Hawai'i names.
We could either bring back the ado/up split, or maybe just put a
period immediately before the consonant. I prefer using a period
myself, as it is the smallest of signs to represent the minimum vowel
sound.
So the examples above would be spelt.
girl g.r.l,
walker wyk.r,
mirror mir.r,
blossom blys.m,
picket pik.t,
foxes fyks.z,
fishes fiS.z,
places plEs.z,
wicked wik.d,
tale tE.l,
table tEb.l,
taken tEk.n,
spoken spOk.n
idea FdI.
boa bO.
Thanks again, Steve
Please let me know your opinion Hugh?
Regards, Paul V.
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2003-02-17 19:12:59 #
Subject: [shavian] Revisting the International Shaw Alphabet
I made up some new Shavian examples using the new restricted
International Shaw Alphabet subset.
I put them in the American Dictionary posting under the Shaw Ikon
Board posting. Please take a look and let me know if my spelling is
consistent?
I added the dot/period to indicate a Schwa beginning a syllable,
within a word. For example in girl, travel, twirl and squirrel,
the "el" sound forms a stand-alone syllable on its own.
To differentiate it from an ordinary "l" that begins a syllable, we
mark it with a dot before the "l"
For example, girl -> gar.l
cruel -> krM.l
growl -> grQl
travel -> trAv.l
twirl -> twar.l
squirrel -> skwar.l
It also common to find a standalone r and occasionally an n,m or z.
walker -> wyK.r
actor -> akt.r
flier -> flF.R
often -> yf.n
blossom -> blys.m
foxes -> fyks.z
But anyway take a look at the other examples in Hugh's Ikonboard
Shaw Forum.
Regards, Paul V.
________________________attached__________________
--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink
<pvandenbrink@s...>" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Hugh & Steve
>
> I was having a discussion with Steve on your Ikon Board, And we
came
> to the conclusion that Quikskript with 40 letters is very similar
to
> the proposed International introductory subset of the Shaw Alphabet.
>
> I have to thank Steve for pointing out the numbered subset of
> Quikskript of 40 basic English sounds that Kingsley Read intended
to
> focus on, after his experiance with the Shavian Alphabet.
> It gives me solid confirmation that we are going in the right
> direction. Apparently, Kingsley Read decided to revise the Shaw
> Alphabet concept in the direction of a simpler set of sounds to
> represent.
>
> I asked myself, "How does numbered Quikscript match up with Hugh's
> numbered subset of the Shaw Alphabet".
> And are all the letters essentially the same?
> According to a post from Steve the Quikskript letters are as
ordered
> as follows.
> In Quikscript, it is "P, B, T, D, K, 'Go', 'THaw', 'THey', F, V, S,
> Z, SH, ZH, 'CHeer', J, Y, W, H, WH, NG, M, N, L, R, 'It',
> EA, 'Ever,' 'Able,' 'At,' 'mY,' cALm,' 'hAUl,' 'On,' OY, 'Utter,'
> OU, 'tOE,' 'fOOt,' & 'OOze.'
> These letters are numbered 1 through 40.
> After comparing them with Hugh's list,
> It appears to me that the only differences are that Quikskript
> retains the On/cALm distinction which has been consolidated by
Hugh
> in the Shaw Alphabet and adds another letter for the disputed "wh"
> sound.
> Steve & I consider these addition 2 letters of only optional use as
> most non-British English speakers do not make a clear distinction
> between w/wh and o/ah.
> But these 2 extra letters do explain the difference between Hugh's
> Shaw Subset of 38 and the 40 numbered Quikskript letters.
>
> Personally, I think 38 is a very good number of basic letters to
> introduce to a novice, And then later, once he is competent with
> those we can then bring up the additional/optional letters that
might
> apply only to his particular accent group.
>
> As to whether there are any other common English sounds which I
> would included with Basic 38, I can only think of one, and it is
> probably better to introduce it after the Basic 38 sounds.
> It would be useful, though.
>
> Hugh, this is the technical issue that I put off discussing.
> I was thinking of introducing a Dot letter to indicate a Schwa
sound
> construct.
> I think many people don't bother to put in the implicit Schwa sound
> at the end of a word, just before the consonant, where it makes the
> last consonant into a syllable.
> WHILE most of time it is better not to differentiate a Schwa and
> the "up" sound, I think the Schwa construct might be an exception
> where we would want to retain a seperate letter.
>
> Look at my examples and see what I mean..
> For example, girl, walker, mirror, blossom, picket, foxes,
> fishes, places, wicked, tale, table, taken, spoken, token and tire
> all have an indistinct or Schwa vowel sound merged with the final
> consonant.
>
> I sometimes hear the Schwa sound after a vowel to make up some of
the
> seldom heard dipthongs, ia, oa, ua, that only seem to be common in
> Hawai'i names.
>
> We could either bring back the ado/up split, or maybe just put a
> period immediately before the consonant. I prefer using a period
> myself, as it is the smallest of signs to represent the minimum
vowel
> sound.
>
> So the examples above would be spelt.
> girl g.r.l,
> walker wyk.r,
> mirror mir.r,
> blossom blys.m,
> picket pik.t,
> foxes fyks.z,
> fishes fiS.z,
> places plEs.z,
> wicked wik.d,
> tale tE.l,
> table tEb.l,
> taken tEk.n,
> spoken spOk.n
> idea FdI.
> boa bO.
>
> Thanks again, Steve
> Please let me know your opinion Hugh?
> Regards, Paul V.
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From: Star Raven
Date: 2003-02-19 14:26:05 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Revisting the International Shaw Alphabet
From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2003-02-19 15:21:27 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Revisting the International Shaw Alphabet
From: Craig Butz
Date: 2003-02-19 18:27:05 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Revisting the International Shaw Alphabet
From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2003-02-19 21:00:18 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Revisting the International Shaw Alphabet
From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2003-02-19 21:00:32 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Revisting the International Shaw Alphabet
From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2003-02-19 22:28:52 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Revisting the International Shaw Alphabet
The namer dot is larger and higher placed.
You are right though, about punctuation. It could be confused with
the period if the schwa sound followed a vowel and ended a word.
Normally, as in the examples below it precedes the consonant, and as
it is embedded in the word there is no way, it could be confused.
Now, if only I could say the same.
Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
P.S. I was born in mid West Canada. Lived in Edmonton and Calgary
growing up. Transferred to Toronto in my 30's.
__________________attached_________________________
--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> Wouldn't a period be confusing with both the punctuation and the
namer
> dot? If you can't hear the difference, use the schwa where there is
no
> accent and up where there is. "butter" bib-up-tot-urge "Mia" Namer
> dot-mim-eat-ado (schwa).
>
> Try this sentance: Her name is Mia.
>
> --Star
>
>
> PS. Where are you frrom?
>
> > girl -> gar.l
> > cruel -> krM.l
> > growl -> grQl
> > travel -> trAv.l
> > twirl -> twar.l
> > squirrel -> skwar.l
>
> Travel, okay, but there is no schwa where I come from in the
others...
> I still believe that uing a dot would add more confusion than it
would
> solve.
>
> > It also common to find a standalone r and occasionally an n,m or
z.
> > walker -> wyK.r
> > actor -> akt.r
> > flier -> flF.R
> > often -> yf.n
> > blossom -> blys.m
> > foxes -> fyks.z
>
>
> =====
> "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster
killing...Hello!"
>
> __________________________________________________
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From: Star Raven
Date: 2003-02-20 02:05:26 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Revisting the International Shaw Alphabet