Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Clear

From: Philip Newton
Date: 2003-03-17 16:16:58 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Unsubscribing

Toggle Shavian
On 17 Mar 2003 at 7:52, gerald baker wrote:

> Please let me out of this group. It's wasting my
> meager computer time this week. Gerald Baker

You'll have to do that yourself. Go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/ and click on "Leave Group" on
the right.

(Sending email to shavian-unsubscribe@... should also work
if you do it from the email address that you are subscribed as.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=569095246>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

From: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
Date: 2003-03-17 16:48:33 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Back to the Cot/Caught Merger

Toggle Shavian
Paul Vandenbrink writes:

>>I am shocked to find out most American users of the Original Shaw Alphabet required a solid phonetic background, (English Teacher, Linguistics Professor, Dialog Voice Coach) in order to learn the Shaw Alphabet, and appreciate all of its benefits.<<

Gee, I was a medical student when I learned the Shaw Alphabet in the early 1960's, and I'm an elderly pathologist now - and I didn't have any trouble learning the Shaw Alphabet and appreciating all of its benefits. Now I'm wondering - as confusion on this list mounts - whether I was missing something.

I'm a strongly rhotic North American speaker with a full cot/caught contrast, and no father/bother contrast, and a fully phonemic /hw/. I never had trouble distinguishing the stressed and unstressed schwa and schwerr symbols. This distinction was commonly made in analyses of English phonemes in the 1960's, and Kingsley Reed may have got the idea from such analyses. I like the distinction because of the very different contrastive environment of English stressed and unstressed vowels. English speakers have at most three unstressed syllable vowel contrasts: handed/candid/candied (lack the handed/candid contrast). I've always found it logical to have separate symbols for this much reduced contrast, compared to the numerous vowels and diphthongs that are realized in stressed syllables.

Once again - we badly need some native speakers of Indian English (Third World English) on this list. After all, they will soon become - if they have not already - the world's largest English speech community.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee
(parents from Oregon)


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=838461244>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

From: Star Raven
Date: 2003-03-17 17:25:29 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Shavian T-shirts

Toggle Shavian
There is also printer paper that is Iron on for tee-shirts though it
does not work well, I prefer to either do it free hand or transferred.
Stencils are difficult, I have found.

--Star

--- Joe <allegrox_2000@...> wrote:
> Thanks for all your great suggestions and support. And thanks, Star,
>
> for mentioning fabric paints. I was actually thinking about paying
> somebody to airbrush it for me! *smacks myself* That's better. I
> don't know much about fabric painting, though. Does anybody know if
> there's a sort of fabric spray paint? And what kind of lettering
> should I use? I was thinking of typing and printing it (outlined to
> save ink) and then cutting it out to use as a stencil. I thought
> about using Androclese because it's easier to read, and I like the
> rough look, but a font like Ghoti or Lionspaw would stand out
> better. I'm also making a variation on Androclese that has basically
>
> the same look, but it's smoother. I'll upload the font when it's
> finished.
>
> -Joe
> a.k.a. AllegroX, Zeshin, Kesakichi, and a whole list of other
> pseudonyms I can't remember
>
>


=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=173152817>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

From: Star Raven
Date: 2003-03-17 17:31:22 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Back to the Cot/Caught Merger

Toggle Shavian
I must agree with Ethan here, As I have found that the alphabet works,
I see only that it needs to be used and exposed to the public view. As
an American, I do not have a problem with err-urge/array nor do i have
a problem with up/ado. These are questions to be sure, but the simple
answer is the best.

/Up/ is for a stressed syllable, /ado/ is a schwa, and by it's nature,
unstressed. In cases of syllabic r, l, and d, I tend to use these
alone, since they make the sound all by themselves. tunnel:
Tot-up-nun-lol. This decreases the amount of needed letters making
writing shorter, but I believe that by no means should any letter be
"dropped" to help one group or another, as you will find those inside
the group that will feel slighted or misrepresented.

Soapbox dismounted, Whip removed from vicinity of dead horse,
--Star


> My own preference would be to see a separate letter for syllabic L,
> but
> as there is none, I will use it as it is. I haven't run into any
> problems so far with it. I'm not in favor of making a multitude of
> changes to the alphabet, since that would tend to fragment the whole
> thing and work against its being adopted or taken seriously by many
> people. We have to have some stability, or else things tend to fall
> apart. That's why I use the original 48 letter alphabet, and will
> continue to use it in its unmodified form, as long as it works. And
> I
> have found no insurmountable problems with it as of yet.
>
> --
> Ethan
>
>


=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=780084297>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

From: Scott Stephens
Date: 2003-03-17 18:53:14 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Shavian T-shirts

Toggle Shavian
Hmmm ... they already have a Shavian store ... showing
the alphabet mostly.

http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=shavian



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=927791605>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

From: Craig Butz
Date: 2003-03-17 23:04:08 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Digest Number 420

Toggle Shavian
The tip of the tongue doesn't touch in a retroflex R, but everything besides
the tip touches, at least in my mouth. On the other hand, the tongue does
not have to touch to make an L. When I say "I'll go" or "almost" the center
of my tongue dips, but the tip, which does point up, doesn't touch the
alveolar ridge. These impure Ls meet Ethan's vowel rule better than any R I
produce. When the L doesn't touch, it's not all that far from a schwa,
while R is closest to ZH, but less constricted.

So, how 'bout we just leave these sounds, along with W and Y, as
approximants, kinda vowel-like consonants, where the IPA creators put 'em.

Craig

In a previous episode, shavian@... said:

> P.S. The R sound could be classified by Ethan's rule as a vowel
> because the tongue never touches the mouth in a normal English
> Retroflex R.
> Perhaps that is the reason we treat the R (Schwerr) differently than
> the syllabic L.



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=599566276>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

From: Ethan
Date: 2003-03-17 23:19:55 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Back to the Cot/Caught Merger

Toggle Shavian
Star Raven wrote:
> I must agree with Ethan here, As I have found that the alphabet works,
> I see only that it needs to be used and exposed to the public view. As
> an American, I do not have a problem with err-urge/array nor do i have
> a problem with up/ado. These are questions to be sure, but the simple
> answer is the best.
>
> /Up/ is for a stressed syllable, /ado/ is a schwa, and by it's nature,
> unstressed. In cases of syllabic r, l, and d, I tend to use these
> alone, since they make the sound all by themselves. tunnel:
> Tot-up-nun-lol. This decreases the amount of needed letters making
> writing shorter, but I believe that by no means should any letter be
> "dropped" to help one group or another, as you will find those inside
> the group that will feel slighted or misrepresented.
>
> Soapbox dismounted, Whip removed from vicinity of dead horse,
> --Star

I say, keep all the letters in the alphabet and give everybody the
opportunity to use them all. Providing a list or chart of example words
would be good for making it easier for others to learn the alphabet.
And above all, encourage people to use it!

Crrrack! I'm done, too.

--
Ethan



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=485859534>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

From: Ethan
Date: 2003-03-17 23:20:13 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Digest Number 420

Toggle Shavian
Craig Butz wrote:
> The tip of the tongue doesn't touch in a retroflex R, but everything besides
> the tip touches, at least in my mouth. On the other hand, the tongue does
> not have to touch to make an L. When I say "I'll go" or "almost" the center
> of my tongue dips, but the tip, which does point up, doesn't touch the
> alveolar ridge. These impure Ls meet Ethan's vowel rule better than any R I
> produce. When the L doesn't touch, it's not all that far from a schwa,
> while R is closest to ZH, but less constricted.
>
> So, how 'bout we just leave these sounds, along with W and Y, as
> approximants, kinda vowel-like consonants, where the IPA creators put 'em.
>
> Craig

My thoughts exactly. That's why they have been called various names
such as semi-vowels, semi-consonants, or approximates. They tend to go
both ways. Let's not argue about it, which accomplishes nothing. I like
the alphabet the way it is, and I don't think it's hard to use at all.
Surely the Latin alphabet is much harder to use! If someone wants to
spell things with fewer letters, let them. But I will continue to use
the full complement of 48, when appropriate, and encourage others to use
whatever letters they pronounce.

--
Ethan



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=665309543>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

From: Ethan
Date: 2003-03-17 23:30:41 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Err and lol

Toggle Shavian
gerald baker wrote:
> Please let me out of this group. It's wasting my
> meager computer time this week. Gerald Baker

I'm a member of a group that doesn't normally get that kind of response
until it's getting more than 50 postings a day! I've seen it at more
than 100 a day during a hot discussion.

If you enjoy a topic, enjoy it. If not, unsubscribe.
shavian-unsubscribe@...

--
Ethan



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=740827726>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

From: gerald baker
Date: 2003-03-18 00:25:35 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Err and lol

Toggle Shavian
I went to that address and couldn't see a way to get
out of this group. I don't have all day to fool around
with that stuff. Just let me out. GB


--- Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
> gerald baker wrote:
> > Please let me out of this group. It's wasting my
> > meager computer time this week. Gerald Baker
>
> I'm a member of a group that doesn't normally get
> that kind of response
> until it's getting more than 50 postings a day!
> I've seen it at more
> than 100 a day during a hot discussion.
>
> If you enjoy a topic, enjoy it. If not,
> unsubscribe.
> shavian-unsubscribe@...
>
> --
> Ethan
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1430287/rand=348243807>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .