Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Stages:

There are two kinds of staged reforms:

1. the familiar one of introducing a few respellings
-or consistently applying a rule such as f for /f/ or
e for /e/

2. the relatively unfamiliar one of introducing a
parallel phonemic writing system.

The idea of a parallel writing system was popularised
by Twain and Shaw. In both cases, the model was
Pitman's shorthand. What they both wanted was
something almost as phonemic and easy to write as
Pitman but more linear.

Isaac Pitman produced several versions of phonotypy
which were designed primarily for printing rather than
handwriting. These were certainly parallel writing
systems but were not endorsed by either Twain or Shaw.

The Shaw alphabet is often used as proof that the
parallel route does not work. Shavian was purposely
non-Roman. The reason for this is explained in the
writings of Twain and Shaw. The primary concern seems
to be a belief that any alternate use of Roman
letters would be considered "uneducated" by the
masses. The visual disparity, as in the sample below,
would also be considered as lacking in aesthetics.

No one has ever responded to these opinions.
Personally, I don't see how a phonemic representation
of spoken English such as EngliS could ever be
mistaken for a series of typos or misspellings. It is
too different for that. It respells 60% of the words
in an English dictionary but it still retains enough
visual similarity to recognize the respelled words in
context. One would have to learn the key for the code
to recognize all words in isolation. eg, a as in ado,
q as in ax, c-ox, w-uu-ooze, D-the, T-thumb.

Sovian iz prcbably Da best exqmpl ov a pqralel rYtiN
sistem qnd Da fakt Dqt it wuz nct pcpUlar haz led meny
tu aswm Dat ol pqralel sistamz wvd sufar a similar
fAt.

The problem with parallel writing system is two-fold:


1. Even if it can be "read" or deciphered, it is
tiring to read. No one who had mastered the
logographic traditional writing system would prefer
the new code to the old one.

2. Non-roman symbol systems such as the non-linear
Pitman shorthand or the linear Shavian have a steep
learning curve. Not as steep as the one for tradspel
but requiring more time than most people are willing
to spend.

No one has investigated just how long it would take
before text written in Shavian could be read
logographically or just as fast as tradspel. It
probably would take most people six months. Reading
by sound-spelling is relatively slow and tiring. The
advantage is that it does enable you to read words you
have never seen spelled before.

No one has investigated just how easy it is to spell
in Shavian. The 90 members of the Shaw discussion
group certainly have trouble sound spelling some
words. One problem is that with members speaking at
least 5 varieties of English, there is no consensus
on a standard dialect or a standard spelling.

Comments welcomed.

Steve

=====

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--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...>
wrote:
> This is exactly why you should take a look at the cut Shavian
alphabet I devised.
>
> It consolidates those characters that cause confusion between the
two dialects.
>
> Another quote from the Shavian forum:-
>
> 37. ah - on, psalm, hot, part, palmolive
> 38. awe - paw, wrought, core, call, hawthorn
>
> That's it. No confusion. Try it out.

Well... no confusion except for ah and awe, of course, which to me
sound identical to on. Part I'd write witht the rhotic, everything
else I'd write with on, except for core and thorn, which I'd write
with oak. I never really saw much point to ah, except for possibly
transliterating Japanese words using their "a" sound, and none
whatsoever for awe. Then again, that's just me. Before anyone makes
the claim, no, I'm not an American. :-) I'm a west coast Canadian.
L8r.




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--- In shavian@..., Steve Bett <stbett@y...> wrote:
> Stages:

> No one has investigated just how easy it is to spell
> in Shavian. The 90 members of the Shaw discussion
> group certainly have trouble sound spelling some
> words. One problem is that with members speaking at
> least 5 varieties of English, there is no consensus
> on a standard dialect or a standard spelling.

Would we really need a standard spelling? For the most part, people
speaking English can understand others in spite of differences in
accent, eg. Jean Cretien (Canadian Prime Minister) vs. Dave Lister
(Red Dwarf) vs. Charles "Trip" Tucker III (Enterprise). In time,
people will be able to "read" accents justas fluently. L8r.




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Hi Rubik

Our concern is not so much the regular vowel shifts that occur in different
English accent groups. As you quite rightly say people can quickly learn to
accommodate them.
Our main concern is that in some accent groups; there is no clear
distinction between the pronunciation of 2 different letters, so people use
those letters in hap-hazard (random) way. This is all quite confusing when
the note is read by someone who does produce distinctly different sounds
from those 2 letter.
We would like to remove this random element, by more closely defining the
Subset of Shaw letters actually used by the average Mid-West American
English Speaker.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Any questions?

___________________-attached-_________________
At 10:54 PM 2/26/03 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In shavian@..., Steve Bett <stbett@y...> wrote:
> > Stages:
>
> > No one has investigated just how easy it is to spell
> > in Shavian. The 90 members of the Shaw discussion
> > group certainly have trouble sound spelling some
> > words. One problem is that with members speaking at
> > least 5 varieties of English, there is no consensus
> > on a standard dialect or a standard spelling.
>
>Would we really need a standard spelling? For the most part, people
>speaking English can understand others in spite of differences in
>accent, eg. Jean Cretien (Canadian Prime Minister) vs. Dave Lister
>(Red Dwarf) vs. Charles "Trip" Tucker III (Enterprise). In time,
>people will be able to "read" accents justas fluently. L8r.
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





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This finally makes some sense, and I do understand...

will send more later
--Star

--- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> Hi Rubik
>
> Our concern is not so much the regular vowel shifts that occur in
> different
> English accent groups. As you quite rightly say people can quickly
> learn to
> accommodate them.
> Our main concern is that in some accent groups; there is no clear
> distinction between the pronunciation of 2 different letters, so
> people use
> those letters in hap-hazard (random) way. This is all quite confusing
> when
> the note is read by someone who does produce distinctly different
> sounds
> from those 2 letter.
> We would like to remove this random element, by more closely defining
> the
> Subset of Shaw letters actually used by the average Mid-West American
>
> English Speaker.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. Any questions?
>
> ___________________-attached-_________________
> At 10:54 PM 2/26/03 +0000, you wrote:
> >--- In shavian@..., Steve Bett <stbett@y...> wrote:
> > > Stages:
> >
> > > No one has investigated just how easy it is to spell
> > > in Shavian. The 90 members of the Shaw discussion
> > > group certainly have trouble sound spelling some
> > > words. One problem is that with members speaking at
> > > least 5 varieties of English, there is no consensus
> > > on a standard dialect or a standard spelling.
> >
> >Would we really need a standard spelling? For the most part, people
> >speaking English can understand others in spite of differences in
> >accent, eg. Jean Cretien (Canadian Prime Minister) vs. Dave Lister
> >(Red Dwarf) vs. Charles "Trip" Tucker III (Enterprise). In time,
> >people will be able to "read" accents justas fluently. L8r.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>


=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"

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Hi Sid
Good Gracious
I am not saying that you can not use a British Accent when writing
Shaw.
A lot of people affect a British accent for many reasons. It has high
status. But for the people who haven't had a chance to watch a lot of
British TV (Monty Python and the 2 Ronnies are great) and just want
to write clearly and quickly in the American Style. Why not use the
restricted alphabet and avoid the headaches and resulting confusion.
I won't think any less of you. And as you say minor regional
variations can be charming if they are consistently applied. It is
the multiple spellings for the same word, even when it would be
pronounced exactly the same, which we are trying to eliminate.

Regards, Paul V.____
_________attached______________________


--- In shavian@..., "" <sidban2@e...> wrote:
> May I disagree about understanding dialects? As a native English
speaker I even have trouble with dialects in the south and I am from
Missouri. My modest suggestion is write the alphabet in your own
dialect and establish Mr. Reed's English for everyone else. IT is
not that difficult to learn to use the pronunciation found in
Androcles and the Lion. MOreover, it has its own charm. Why be
nationalistic about one's dialect? It is not a big deal.Sid--- On
Wed 02/26, rubik67 < rubik67@y... > wrote:From: rubik67
[mailto: rubik67@y...]To: shavian@y...: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 22:54:42 -
0000Subject: [shavian] Re: Spelling reform in stages--- In
shavian@..., Steve Bett wrote:> Stages:> No one has
investigated just how easy it is to spell> in Shavian. The 90
members of the Shaw discussion> group certainly have trouble sound
spelling some> words. One problem is that with members speaking
at> least 5 varieties of English, there is no consensus> on a
standard dialect or a standard spelling. Would we really need a
standard spelling? For the most part, people speaking English can
understand others in spite of differences in accent, eg. Jean Cretien
(Canadian Prime Minister) vs. Dave Lister (Red Dwarf) vs.
Charles "Trip" Tucker III (Enterprise). In time, people will be able
to "read" accents justas fluently. L8r.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
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How do you all react to articles like this?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/03/03/offbeat.text.essay.reut/index.html

I'm irked by the unexamined implication that there's something wrong with
spelling phonetically (and the seeming equation of correctness and
morality.)

Craig



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Where did you get the reference to morality? It
seemed to me that the article was warning against the
threat posed by phonetic English in a modern world. I
did see the word "decline" snuck in there as the
obviously subjective opinion of the reporter. How is
one spelling a "decline" compared to another? I
suspect it's merely because simplified spelling and
abbreviations seem less aesthetic to someone who has
been raised on OT, which is why some call for a new
alphabet.





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Happens all too much here. So many people I see in chat rooms are starting to speak like this:

"so wot ru doin 2moz?me +my bro r goin 2town dats so cool like innit"

I can't wait till email finally replaces "txt msgs" and we aren't forced to squeeze what we write into a piddly 160 characters. Using things like "2" for 'to' and "2moz" for 'tomorrow' is hardly phonetic. It's just lazy... :-P

I admit, I do it myself, but I never ever do it outside text messages!

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Butz <mailto:shavian@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 10:41 PM
Subject: [shavian] Text messaging

How do you all react to articles like this?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/03/03/offbeat.text.essay.reut/index.html

I'm irked by the unexamined implication that there's something wrong with
spelling phonetically (and the seeming equation of correctness and
morality.)

Craig



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In a previous episode, Hugh Birkenhead said:

> I can't wait till email finally replaces "txt msgs" and we aren't forced to
> squeeze what we write into a piddly 160 characters. Using things like "2" for
> 'to' and "2moz" for 'tomorrow' is hardly phonetic. It's just lazy... :-P

I think most likely the kid in the article was fully aware that they were
"breaking" the rules, and thus were doing something creative, interesting,
and potentially subversive with language. I disagree with the assessment of
laziness. It probably takes a fair bit of brain to remember all those
codes. This sort of stuff is like any slang, it marks membership in a
group, which is exactly the same thing that our difficult spelling system
does, it closes out those who haven't invested the time in
'education'--meaning arcane rules that are not practically useful, except
for proving that you've mastered the system.

I'm disturbed that reporters and teachers look at text messaging and
conclude it's phonetic writing. To me that reveals a lack of observation
skills and a lack of knowledge about language, their supposed area of
expertise. Certainly phonetic transcription is one aspect of it, but the
alphabet is also being used as a syllabary. At other times, the symbols are
being used ideograhpically.

All writing systems are technologies. How much sense does it make to use a
technology designed to work with ink and quills for instant messaging? The
reason this grass-roots language change is so radical is because the needs
of that medium are radically different than any previous form of
communication. One approach to readapting language is a system of strict
and logical rules, such as shavian. We see how much consensus and change
that creates. The more natural way to adapt is through creativity and
natural selection. Text messaging still has to convey meaning. There still
has to be consensus between writers and readers about symbols and meaning.
Obviously the most extreme examples aren't going to survive, but they add
pressure to the language community to change. And it is changing, and not
at the hands of linguists. It's a bunch of teenagers who hold the future of
the English language, and I say, more power to them.

Craig



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