Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Yeah, the schwer is the "turn epsilon," which looks like a small
3. The hook represents rhoticity. So if it has a hook, then it's a
rhoric schwer, like American "err." If it doesn't have a hook, then
it's a non-rhotic schwer, like British "err." The unstressed
equivalent of schwer is schwa (the turn e). Both can have a hook to
represent rhoticity. I also pronounce "array" like "a ray," which is
why I would prefer to use "err." And I would prefer to spell "array"
with a schwa followed by an "r;" "arE" in Shavian.

--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> Joe wrote:
> > The "ah," "on," "awe" distinction seems to vary greatly
between
> > accents -- perhaps more than any other sounds, as far as I know.
I
> > also live in Southern Indiana (though I'm originally from Terre
> > Haute, so my speech is more representative of, that area); and I
> > distinguish "awe" when I'm not being lazy with my speech,
but "ah,"
> > and "on" both come out like "ah" when I say them. This is the
way i
> > talk, but I can't say what the "standard" pronunciation is. It
just
> > depends on who's talking.
> > I take "semi-vowel" as a reference to what I would call an
> > approximant. This would take a good while to explain fully; but
> > suffice to say they're barely impeded, and they're almost like
vowels.
> > Actually, "err" is a pure vowel sound. It's a rhotic schwer
> > (not schwa). "Err" and "array" don't contain any true R sounds.
And
> > the distinction between them is not really significant. "Err"
occurs
> > only in stressed syllables, and "array" occurs only in unstressed
> > syllables. The pronunciation is decided by stress, and is no
more
> > significant to meaning than the stress is. There is really no
need
> > to distinguish them in spelling if you know which syllable to
> > stress. With that in mind, I wish Reed had created some way to
> > indicate stress in spelling. I've dabbled in creating some
> > alternative notations of my own, and the method I've come to like
> > best is to use an apostrophe (') before a syllable with primary
> > stress, and a comma (,) to indicate secondary stress (if
desired).
> > Both would come before the syllable they mark. I don't mean to
try
> > to change the way we use Shavian, but this could be useful for
obsure
> > words or to distinguish between words that are otherwise
identical.
> >
> > -AllegroX
>
> Is schwer the IPA symbol that looks like a small 3 with a little
hook on
> the top?
>
> One good way to determine if a sound is a vowel is if your tongue
> doesn't touch any part of your mouth while you say it, and it can
form a
> syllable by itself. The letter "err" as pronounced by most
Americans
> fits this criterion.
>
> You mention the letter "array" and its use in unaccented
syllables. It
> sounds like something similar to the difference between the letters
> "ado" and "up", which I do use, but sometimes inconsistantly. I
could
> use "array" for unaccented "schwer" syllables, I suppose, but my
> confusion over the matter stems from the word "array", which I
pronounce
> like "a ray", with a distinct "roar" consonant after the "ado".
Thus
> the letter "array" seems like a non-syllabic letter to me. Maybe I
need
> to revise my usage. But if I do, then I will have to spell the
word
> *array* as /arE/, rather than /DE/, since that's the way I
pronounce it.
> I have been using "err" for both accented and non-accented
syllables.
>
> Even if we use slightly different spellings, according to the way
we
> talk, we can still be understood, just as we can understand the
speech
> of someone with a different accent. Maybe even easier.
>
> --
> Ethan



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I like that idea! Now I have to break out my fabric paints!

--Star

--- Joe <allegrox_2000@...> wrote:
> I've been thinking about this for some time myself. I was
> thinking maybe I could get a shirt made with a catchy phrase written
> in Shavian just to get people asking. Perhaps a quote from Shaw,
> something like "Nothing is ever done in this world until men are
> prepared to kill one another if it is not done." That's my
> favorite. How does that idea sound to you? Do you have any other
> suggestions for what to put on it?
>
> -AllegroX
>


=====
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What about a shavian phrase or quote and in TO something like a
website, shavian.org or something....? Now this is what we need!

--Star

PS, once again, the tennesseeans have the best ideas ;) Wink wink nudge
nudge!

--- RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:
> AllegroX suggests a T-shirt.
>
> Great idea - most adults can do with size XL - would suggest a short
> text
> done in Shavian and in traditional orthography - remembering that the
> vast
> majority of viewers of the T-shirt will have no idea that Shavian
> exists.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville TN
>


=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"

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Sorry, credit redo

AllegroX: Great Tee-shirt idea
Bob: Addition of TO idea

sorry, thanks all
-Star

--- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
> What about a shavian phrase or quote and in TO something like a
> website, shavian.org or something....? Now this is what we need!
>
> --Star
>
> PS, once again, the tennesseeans have the best ideas ;) Wink wink
> nudge
> nudge!
>
> --- RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:
> > AllegroX suggests a T-shirt.
> >
> > Great idea - most adults can do with size XL - would suggest a
> short
> > text
> > done in Shavian and in traditional orthography - remembering that
> the
> > vast
> > majority of viewers of the T-shirt will have no idea that Shavian
> > exists.
> >
> > Bob Richmond
> > Knoxville TN
> >
>
>
> =====
> "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster
> killing...Hello!"
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com
>


=====
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Joe wrote:
> Yeah, the schwer is the "turn epsilon," which looks like a small
> 3. The hook represents rhoticity. So if it has a hook, then it's a
> rhoric schwer, like American "err." If it doesn't have a hook, then
> it's a non-rhotic schwer, like British "err." The unstressed
> equivalent of schwer is schwa (the turn e). Both can have a hook to
> represent rhoticity. I also pronounce "array" like "a ray," which is
> why I would prefer to use "err." And I would prefer to spell "array"
> with a schwa followed by an "r;" "arE" in Shavian.

I saw a good explanation of how the American "er" is pronounced. First,
say a prolonged schwa, as in the "RP" or "BBC" ur in "turn" or
"further". Then, as you maintain this sound, curl the tip of your
tongue toward the roof of your mouth without touching it, and slightly
toward the back, in a retroflex position. You should glide into a
"rhotic schwer", such as Americans use in these words.

When I took linguistics training in preparation for foreign missionary
work, my instructor used an older phonetic alphabet system based on
Latin characters modified mostly using diacritics, as he was not a fan
of the IPA. In this alphabet, American "er" was signified using an "r"
with a short vertical line underneath, denoting a "syllabic r". That's
when I first learned that "er" was not a consonant sound.

--
Ethan



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Hugh Birkenhead wrote:

> Is schwer the IPA symbol that looks like a small 3 with a little
> hook on
> the top?
>
> Schwa is just a small letter 'e' rotated 180 degrees.

Yep, I know about schwa! The most common sound in the English language.
It was the word "Schwer" that I was unsure about. Joe confirmed that
for me.

<snip>


> There's nothing wrong with this - Androcles does it, I think in the word
> "arrest" (a-rest). I would still do it in traditional Shavian, but in my
> revised version (that I'm still testing for integrity) there are no
> compound letters so it's always split.

I'm afraid that in my (almost standard American) usage, Err (and Array
too, I guess) is not a compound letter, but a single vowel. If you were
to drop Err and Array, you would have to have another letter to replace
them, or else you would be corrupting the alphabet with a digraph, two
letters for one sound. For me, and most other Americans, "Ado + Roar"
is definitely different from Array and Err. Also, if you dropped Are,
Or, Air, and Ear, we would be forced to spell them as "Ah + Err", etc.
If you were to require the use of Roar as a syllabic consonant, then you
might as well drop Eat and Ooze, and replace them with Yay and Woe, to
be consistent.

> We really don't want to accentuate accents in Shavian. It will never be
> useful as a solid, unambiguous communication and information storage
> method, which is probably the main defence of traditional orthography.
>
> This is why I still maintain the increased unambiguity of the revised
> alphabet... You can still understand what you write, but it doesn't
> allow for even half of the spelling variations that can occur needlessly
> right now. And this is when you are consciously writing according to
> your dialect.
>
> Hugh

Well, Chinese ideographs don't differ with accent, either, but I'm sure
we wouldn't want to go that route!

I still believe that a system based on the way we talk is superior to
one in which an arbatrary set of rules govern the way we spell.
Standardization I believe can be done, but I would suggest doing it
according to "standard" accents, such as "BBC English" and "Standard
American". And by all means, let people spell the way they talk, if
they want to. I don't mind reading people's accents! We hear their
accents all the time, why not read them too?

--
Ethan



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Ethan:

The people of southern Indiana sound mostly southern to me!

I have lived in southern Indiana all my life except for three years in Bloomington at Indiana University (central Indiana) so I doubt I have a pronounced southern accent. I think your quote above points up what I experienced years ago. The question of accent or dialect, if you prefer, depends on the perspective of the person hearing it. When I was in New York City a New Yorker asked me what part of the South I was from. Another time in Atlanta, a Georgian asked me what part of the North I came from. On several occasions, I have asked people whom I have met whether my accent sounded 'southern' to them, and invariably they have said no.


I guess I'd have to record and post the sounds in order to really
demonstrate. But as far as "awe" goes, in British pronunciation, it
sounds to me more like "oh" than "ah". At least the people I've heard!
For instance, when I hear someone from England say "all", it sounds to
me like they are saying "oll". That's the "awe" sound that I'm
referring to when I say it's not used (that I'm aware of) in American
speech. If you distinguish between "awe" and "on", then you probably
pronounce "on" like "ah" as in "father", but pronounce "awe" just a bit
further back in the mouth, which sound is similar to the "o" in "hot"
the way some people pronounce it.

I pronounce nautical just like the "ah" sound in "father", "not", and
"awful", which words all have exactly the same "ah" sound in my speech.

Perhaps I missed something. I am not sure why you are discussing British accents. The foregoing confirms what I said in my post yesterday. Your accent ignores "au" where it appears in trad. orth, and you pronounce it as if it were an "o."

In my Merriam-Webster dictionary (9th ed., 1988), the pronunciation guide states "[s]ome U.S. speakers (a perhaps growing minority) do not distinguish between cot -- caught, cod -- cawed, and collar -- caller, usually because they lack lip rounding..." [which the "au" sound requires]. Obviously, your accent falls in this group.

I just finished reading a book titled "Practical Phonetics" two days ago.



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I agree with you, Ethan. I feel that, in time, a standard of spelling
for a specific group will emerge, but instead of one dictionary of
pronunciation in play, there will be two, three, five, twenty, based on
where you live and the accent group to which you belong. Australia, New
Zealand, England, Ireland, Canada, the US, will each have their own
dictionary to reflect how the language has adapted.

--Star

> I still believe that a system based on the way we talk is superior to
>
> one in which an arbatrary set of rules govern the way we spell.
> Standardization I believe can be done, but I would suggest doing it
> according to "standard" accents, such as "BBC English" and "Standard
> American". And by all means, let people spell the way they talk, if
> they want to. I don't mind reading people's accents! We hear their
> accents all the time, why not read them too?
>
> --
> Ethan
>
>


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In a previous episode, C. Paige Gabhart said:

> I have always distinguished "awe" from "on" and can't imagine
> why one wouldn't.... For instance, in the sentence, "He was
> in awe," what does the last word sound like: "ah"or "o"? If that is
> the case, and I heard the sentence, I probably would not understand the
> meaning without further explanatory remarks.

There's a bit of a contradiction here. Your first statement suggests that
you've never noticed that many people do not distinguish ON and AWE (what is
known by linguists as the caught/cot merger.) But because it is so
widespread, there is no doubt that you have listened to a great deal of
speech with this merger. If it actually was interfering with your
comprehension, certainly you would have noticed it.

> In my Merriam-Webster dictionary (9th ed., 1988), the pronunciation
> guide states "[s]ome U.S. speakers (a perhaps growing minority) do not
> distinguish between cot -- caught, cod -- cawed, and collar -- caller,
> usually because they lack lip rounding..." [which the "au" sound
> requires]. Obviously, your accent falls in this group.

Yes, and it is not a "small but growing" minority, but one which covers most
of the country geographically (and almost all of Canada). It does not
affect the South or the Northeast Megalopolis, but aside from a chunk of the
northern Midwest around Chicago, it includes just about all of the Midland
dialect that is generally equated with "General American." See the map and
text below:

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/Map1.html

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/ICSLP4.html#Heading2

Another rhotic digraph that gives me fits is OR. Only recently have I
noticed that some people (Northeasterners) pronounce this syllable such that
it sounds just like ARE to me: "authority". When I learned the Shaw
alphabet, I just couldn't figure out what vowel was being joined with ROAR
to create that digraph, because OR to me is clearly OAK+ROAR.

There are many vowel distinction issues that would make Shavian cumbersome
for everyday users. English is overburdened with vowel-sounds, as is
evidenced by the Latin alphabet's inability to represent them all. However,
there seems to be a general trend in speech towards simplification. Many
Americans do not pronounce "pin" differently from "pen." When college
students move to Athens, Ohio from further north, they always ask whether
the county to the south--Meigs--is pronounced "migs" or "megs". I finally
realized that there is no right answer because the question is meaningless.
To most people living there, it's the same phoneme.

If Shavian insists that people maintain these distinctions in writing when
they don't in speech, it becomes a cumbersome archaic system just like TO.
And there is no perfect systematic solution because language is organic, not
systematic.

***

On the array/err issue, if one were to eliminate the distinction, I go for
the simpler to write one: array.

Speaking of syllabic R, what about syllabic L? It makes no sense to put a
schwa before L in "little" (LOLL-IF-TOT-LOLL). This seems very similar to
the situation in "litter." So why even put a ligatured schwa there?
Shouldn't it just be LOLL-IF-TOT-ROAR?

Craig



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Those are great charts. Do you know if they have that
data available in tabular format somewhere? I think
it would be interesting to set up a test which asks
you some questions and tells you your most likely
regional accent ... or one that tells you what sounds
you need to practice to imitate another regions accent
... or, more appropriately for this group, detect your
regional variation and come out with a Shavian
dictionary/converter/spelling checker specific for
your region. Is there similar data for British
regional dialects? Is there similar data for ethnic
dialects?




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