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rubik67 wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
>
>>True, the ado can often be heard before syllabic consonants. But I
>>think you would be hard put to say it should be distinguished as a
>>phoneme. We need to remember not to make distinctions based on
>>phonetics, since there are many little sounds that appear in normal
>>speech which are not phonemes in themselves. For instance, I don't
>>believe there is a phonemic schwa before the final l in little.
>>You could easily spell it litl, without the silent final e, and you
>>would still be showing all the phonemes, l, i, t, l. So in this case,
>>the schwa isn't a phoneme. But in the case of the words "about"
>>and "bout", the schwa distinguishes the words, and you can easily
>>see that it is a phoneme.

>
> In the case of "little", it is indeed possible to leave out the
> schwa, but not in all it's forms. For example, compare the
> word "littler" (lit-l-er), versus "Hitler" (Hit-ler). Without the
> schwa in there, we wouldn't know if it should be pronounced "lit-l-
> er" or "lit-ler". L8r.

Hey, you found one! Good point - an example of at least a phonetic
difference between syllabic "l" and non-syllabic. While I'm not aware
of either a "lit-ler" or a "hitl-er", still the discovery of this
difference tends to make one reconsider having only one letter for this
"liquid". I would say it at least warrents further study as to whether
these two ways of pronouncing "l" amount to a phonemic difference, that
is, a difference important enough to be worthy of the status of phoneme,
and thus worth having its own letter. I can tell you with all certainty
that I do not pronounce any vowel sound such as "ado" between the "t"
and "l", but rather pronounce the "l" as a syllable by itself. Perhaps
other people do prounounce an "ado" there. Worthy of study, for sure.

Don't forget, Hitler is a foreign name, rather than a normal English
word. Occasionally foreign words are used with somewhat unusual
pronunciation, which, although they may become phonemic eventually, more
often than not they never go beyond the borrowed word or phrase, and
often the pronunciation will change to conform more over the years.
Imagine people years from now pronouncing "Hitler" so that it rhymes
with "littler". Are there any native words which contain this vowel +
tl + vowel combination where the "l" is not a syllable?

--
Ethan



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----- Original Message -----
From: Ethan <mailto:ethanl@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset - Bonus Round

Don't forget, Hitler is a foreign name, rather than a normal English
word. Occasionally foreign words are used with somewhat unusual
pronunciation, which, although they may become phonemic eventually, more
often than not they never go beyond the borrowed word or phrase, and
often the pronunciation will change to conform more over the years.
Imagine people years from now pronouncing "Hitler" so that it rhymes
with "littler". Are there any native words which contain this vowel + tl + vowel combination where the "l" is not a syllable?


Butler
Witless
Sedately

...many more!

This is why you include the 'ado' letter when the 'l' is treated as a syllable in the middle of a word. I agree that if it's word-final then the 'ado' could be omitted. But a separate letter for this allophone isn't really necessary; it's considered to be the same phoneme by English speakers and so should have the same letter.

Hugh B

I've noticed the same thing. I've had to use two letters to write
what I consider a single phoneme. The letter Ian is great, but we
need more like it. For example, how else would you distinguish
aim/am, pain/pan, Dane/Dan? I have seen ash used for age + ado, but
we really need another letter. Using ash doesn't distinguish aim/am,
pain/pan, main/man. I think we need more letters for these sounds.
But for now I'm forced either to write them with two letters or
invent letters of my own.

-AllegroX

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> I also notice a non-intuitive Schwa at the end of some uncommon
> Dipthongs, for which the Original Shaw Letter Ian, is a good
example.
> (Mamma Mia, India, idea). But there are other less common
> examples, "oa", (boa, Mona Koa), Aia, (Iacocca).
> I don't know if this sound is consistently applicable to General
> American or British R.P. pronunciation.
> But the question of how to handle these sounds does needs to be
> addressed.



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--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
Are there any native words which contain this vowel +
> tl + vowel combination where the "l" is not a syllable?

The only one I can think of at the moment is butler. But the
personal suffis -er does some weird things. It affects other sounds,
too. As far as I can tell, "ng" is always followed by a "g" when it
comes before a vowel, except before this suffix. This is
why "finger" has a hard "g" and "singer" doesn't. So there is really
no need to write the "g" after "ng," as far as I know. For these
distinctions, we may consider using abbreviations for common suffixes
(or even prefixes, for that matter).

-AllegroX



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In a previous episode, AllegroX said:

> Using ash doesn't distinguish aim/am,
> pain/pan, main/man.

It's not supposed to. It's not the same phoneme if there are minimal pairs
like the ones you've given that are only distinguished by that one sound
change. Clearly you use AGE for "pain" and ASH for "pan". There are two
allophones of the ASH sound; it gets nasalized before N and M in many
dialects. But no words are differentiated only by that sound change, so
they are not distinct phonemes deserving of separate letters. "Pan" and
"pat" are distinguished by the N and T. Only after the phonemes are
arranged does the A get altered to make it "easier" to pronounce.

Craig



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Joe wrote:
> I've noticed the same thing. I've had to use two letters to write
> what I consider a single phoneme. The letter Ian is great, but we
> need more like it. For example, how else would you distinguish
> aim/am, pain/pan, Dane/Dan? I have seen ash used for age + ado, but
> we really need another letter. Using ash doesn't distinguish aim/am,
> pain/pan, main/man. I think we need more letters for these sounds.
> But for now I'm forced either to write them with two letters or
> invent letters of my own.
>
> -AllegroX

I write aim, am: Em, Am (age-mime, ash-mime)
Also pain, pan: pEn, pAn
Dane, Dan: /dEn, /dAn
main, man: mEn, mAn

You get the idea. Different vowel sounds, not double vowels or
diphthongs. At least that's the way I say it.

--
Ethan



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Hi I'm new, just thought I would introduce myself.



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Hi there Eric! Welcome to the group!

Do you have much experience with the Shaw Alphabet or are you learning / hoping to learn?

Regards
Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Draven <mailto:moonlightembrace_1999@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:51 AM
Subject: [shavian] New here

Hi I'm new, just thought I would introduce myself.



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I'm actually been wanting to learn for awhile. I finally got the time
and I'm writing a online game to help me learn which letters are
which.

Can anyone point me to a websites that gives the actual names of the
letters?


Nice to meet you hugh.



--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...>
wrote:
> Hi there Eric! Welcome to the group!
>
> Do you have much experience with the Shaw Alphabet or are you
learning / hoping to learn?
>
>



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Hi Eric

You could try my website at http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/ - it will give you all the information you need to get started, I think!

Regards
Hugh B


----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Draven <mailto:moonlightembrace_1999@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 11:06 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: New here

I'm actually been wanting to learn for awhile. I finally got the time
and I'm writing a online game to help me learn which letters are
which.

Can anyone point me to a websites that gives the actual names of the
letters?


Nice to meet you hugh.



--- In shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> , "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b <mailto:mixsynth@b> ...>
wrote:
> Hi there Eric! Welcome to the group!
>
> Do you have much experience with the Shaw Alphabet or are you
learning / hoping to learn?
>
>



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