Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

internashunal english alfabet with an amerikan aksent::::::::::

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ pEpD 107 ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

PiJin n nEcD v TYt aJastDz

YlHO H VnivDsal foHD iz pxsonali rezident on pXadFs, At H vXi sentD v H VnivDsez, hI iz YlsO AktVali prezent on H wxldz v spEs in H mFndz v hiz kQntles cildren v tFm, fP hI indwelz Hem Az H mistDi monitDz. H Itxnal foHD iz At wan n H sEm tFm fRHest remMvd from, n mOst intimatli asOsiEted wiH, hiz plAnetXi mPtal sonz.

H aJastDz R H AktVAliti v H foHDz lav inkRnat in H sOlz v men; TE R H vXitabal promis v mAnz Itxnal karC imprizond wiHin H mPtal mFnd; HE R H esens v manz pxfekted fFnAlitD pxsonAliti, wic hI kAn fPtEst in tFm Az hI progresivli mAstDz H divFn teknIk v acIviN H liviN v H foHDz wil, step bF step, TrM H asenSan v VnivDs upon VnivDs until hI aktVali atEnz H divFn prezens v hiz pXadFs foHD.

god, hAviN komanded mAn t bI pxfekt, Iven Az hI iz pxfekt, haz desended Az H aJastD t bekam mAnz ekspCienSal pRtnD in H acIvment v H sMpxnal destinI wic hAz ben Has PdEnd. H fragment v god wic indwelz H mFnd v man iz H AbsolMt n unkwylifFd aSDans HAt mAn kAn fFnd H VnivDsal foHD in asOsiESan wiH His divFn aJastD, wic kEm fPT from god t fFnd mAn n sonSip him Iven in H dEz v H fleS.

Ani mPtal hM hAz sIn a krIEtD son hAz sIn H VnivDsal foHD, n hI hM iz indwelt bF a divFn aJastD iz indwelt bF H pXadFs foHD. evDi mPtal hM iz konSasli P unkonSasli folOiN H lIdiN v hiz indweliN aJastD iz liviN in akPdAns wiH H wil v god. konSasnes v aJastD prezens iz konSasnes v godz prezens. ItDnal fVZon v H aJastD wiH H evolMSanXi sOl v mAn iz H fAktVal ekspCiens v ItDnal VnWn wiH god Az a VnifDs asOsiat v dIiti.

it iz H aJastD hM krIEts wiHin mAn HAt unkwencabal jxniN n insesAnt loNiN t bI lFk god, t atEn pXadFs, n HX befP H AktVal pxson v dIiti t wxSip H infinit sPs v H divFn gift. H aJastD iz H liviN prezens wic AktVali linNks H mPtal son wiH hiz pXadFs foHD n drYz him nCD n nCD t H foHD. H aJastD iz QD kompensatPi IkwalizESan v H enPmas VnivDs tenSan wic iz krIEted bF H distAns v mAnz remMval from god n bF H degrI v hiz pRSiAliti in kontrAst wiH H VnivDsAliti v H Itxnal foHD.

H aJastD iz An AbsOlMt esens v An infinit bIiN imprizond wiHin H mFnd v a fFnFt krIcD wic, dependiN on H cMziN v sac a mPtal, kAn eventVali konsMmEt His tempPXi VnWn v god n mAn n vXitabli AktVlFz a nM PdD v bIiN fP unendiN VnivDs sxvis. H aJastD iz H divFn VnivDs rIAliti wic fAktValFzez H trMT HAt god iz mAnz foHD. H aJastD iz mAnz infAlibal kozmik kompAs, YlwEz n unxiNli pqntiN H sOl godwDd.

on H evolMSanXi wxldz, wil krIcDz trAvxs 3 JenDal developmental stEJez v bIiN: from H DFval v H aJastD t kompXativ fal grOT, abQt 20 jCz v EJ on GVranSW, H monitDz R somtFmz dezignEted TYt cEnJDz. from His tFm t H atEnment v diskreSan, abQt 40 jCz, H mistDi monitDz R kYld TYt aJastDz. from H atEnment v diskreSan t delivDAns from H fleS, HE R Yfen refDd t Az TYt kontrOlDz. HIz 3 fEzez v mPtal lFf hAv nO konekSan wiH H 3 stEJez v aJastD progres in mFnd dMplikESan n sOl evolMSan.

1. PiJin v TYt aJastDz: B

1. orijin f thaut ajusterz



Faraday Fordham <for03001@...> wrote:

'K... Im an american. I just joined this group. Real name = Bryan,
but Faraday is my cat's name. i wanted to see how much Spam i would
get from my Yahoo account. my cat has been approved for several
credit cards so far, and has "won" several thousand dollars..
anyway, on to shavian. Americans pronounce so many things
differently.. especially the whole "r" thing. i've downloaded and
deciphered the five orange pips, and several other shavian stories,
but am having difficulties cuz everything is so... british sounding.
are there any booke with american accents that i can download or
read? I've done so much Shavian that my roommates say im stahting to
sound slahtly british, dahling. also... isn't the "egg" sound
phonetically identical to "age"??? or do the redcoats
pronounce "egg" to rhyme with "peg" or "beg"??? we also pronounce
Ado/up the same. comments??? answers??? thanx, friends!!!



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




t = to e = the v = of n = and

AEIOU az in Age Eat Ice Oak yoU

digrafs: ah au ch oo ou oi/oy sh th zh.

http://groups.msn.com/konsosiashunforspiritualiti

________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/tag/*http://calendar.yahoo.com> with sync to Outlook(TM).

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=249982.3179269.4495679.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1524963/R=0/SIG=12ongbbsq/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/autoredir?camp=556&lineid=3179269&prop=egroupweb&pos=HM>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=249982.3179269.4495679.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1524963/rand=185714404>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

I went around for a while to see if there was a nice
general keyboard solution for shavian, especially one
that didn't involve any shift keys. I even looked at
Dvorak experiments and did some sound frequency
analysis to take a stab at a good arrangement of
characters. Unfortunately, 40 keys is too much. The
typical human hand has 10 fingers, of which the thumbs
are only good for spacebar. This limits the number of
keys that can be hit to about 30 keys. Has anyone
seen a cut-down version of Shavian with only 30
letters? I even looked at really extreme variant
computers, (one in which you stick fingers in a hole
and push up, down, left or right). I eventually
decided that the only solution was to admit double-key
strokes, where you hit two keys in succession to get a
specific sound. Ideal candidates? s+h -> sh, c+h ->
ch, and the rhotic sounds. I tried it once and still
couldn't get down to just 30 keys, but didn't have any
more time to spend on it.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Why is the shift key so bad? I use it all the time, So WhAt wOUld Be SO
HarD AbOUt UsInG THe shiFt KeY? Or perhaps in the future, we will have
two lage buttons (one for each thumb) and that will be the shift key.
Until then, As I cannot, and I'm reasonably sure it's rather impossible
to touch-type in the current shavian key-layout, then why do we also
make it impossible to learn? The learning curve for the current layout
is, at best, A little steep.

--Star

--- Scott Stephens <swstephe@...> wrote:
> I went around for a while to see if there was a nice
> general keyboard solution for shavian, especially one
> that didn't involve any shift keys. I even looked at
> Dvorak experiments and did some sound frequency
> analysis to take a stab at a good arrangement of
> characters. Unfortunately, 40 keys is too much. The
> typical human hand has 10 fingers, of which the thumbs
> are only good for spacebar. This limits the number of
> keys that can be hit to about 30 keys. Has anyone
> seen a cut-down version of Shavian with only 30
> letters? I even looked at really extreme variant
> computers, (one in which you stick fingers in a hole
> and push up, down, left or right). I eventually
> decided that the only solution was to admit double-key
> strokes, where you hit two keys in succession to get a
> specific sound. Ideal candidates? s+h -> sh, c+h ->
> ch, and the rhotic sounds. I tried it once and still
> couldn't get down to just 30 keys, but didn't have any
> more time to spend on it.
>


=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

The shift key slows your typing down. With Roman
letters, the shift key is used mainly for capitals and
punctuation, which are never, ever, pronounced and are
pretty much cultural baggage, used for royal
honorifics, (like the Roman alphabet is to Shavian).
My goal was to get all phonetic keys into the base
keyboard, (like the Roman letters currently are), to
make a phonetic alphabet that was easier to type than
Roman. It is just my personal goals, not something I
want to impress on others. I realize change is a
difficult thing for some people. Look at the Dvorak
keyboard, (I'm typing on one now). It has been
demonstrated many times that you can type 50-100%
faster than you do now on your QWERTY keyboard, and
yet it is very hard to find Dvorak keyboards anywhere.
The company I bought mine from has already
discontinued their line. I'm just a weirdo who wants
to free myself from handicaps to my creativity. You
can certainly use your own keyboard mapping, (not
necessarily related to font), and I'll use mine.

--- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
> Why is the shift key so bad? I use it all the time,
> So WhAt wOUld Be SO
> HarD AbOUt UsInG THe shiFt KeY? Or perhaps in the
> future, we will have
> two lage buttons (one for each thumb) and that will
> be the shift key.
> Until then, As I cannot, and I'm reasonably sure
> it's rather impossible
> to touch-type in the current shavian key-layout,
> then why do we also
> make it impossible to learn? The learning curve for
> the current layout
> is, at best, A little steep.
>
> --Star


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

06/10/03 1:32:43 PM, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

>Why is the shift key so bad? I use it all the time, So WhAt wOUld Be SO
>HarD AbOUt UsInG THe shiFt KeY? Or perhaps in the future, we will have
>two lage buttons (one for each thumb) and that will be the shift key.
>Until then, As I cannot, and I'm reasonably sure it's rather impossible
>to touch-type in the current shavian key-layout, then why do we also
>make it impossible to learn? The learning curve for the current layout
>is, at best, A little steep.
>
>--Star

While it has been my experience that the current Shavian layout is far from
ideal (I think the TO Qwerty layout is easier, in fact) still it is possible to
touch type. I have done it almost from day one. It's very similar to the
qwerty keyboard, and so it's easy to learn. But I find that it is difficult to
have to type so many shift key combinations (thigh, sure, hung, they, measure,
judge, ash, wool, out, eat, age, ice, oak, ooze, awe, are, or, air, array, ear,
ian, yew) But as I see it, if you could put just the least frequently used
letters on the shift key combos, you would not have to shift very often. You
get just 26 unshifted letters if you don't take over any symbol/punctuation
keys. You can put 33 letters on non-shifted keys, but only if you replaced your
,./;'[] keys with letters. You would then have to find a place for these, and
this may be difficult. You can get 45 letters if you take over every key which
is mostly guaranteed available on every keyboard (not counting ` or \),
including the number row. That would still leave three letters with no simple
key, plus you would have to shift all your punctuation, symbols, and numerals,
and decide on what keys to use for all those.

As for double letter combos, it sounds nice on the surface, but don't forget
that for every double letter combo you use, you have to take away some single
letter key(s). So for instance if you used "h" combos such as "th" for "thigh",
"eh" for "age", "oh" for "oak", you would have to have "escape" combos like
"thh" for words containing "tot ha-ha" as in "Beethoven" (behthhohvan? Is that
easier than bEthOvan?), because "h" becomes a special modifier key. Also ehh
for age-haha, ohh for oak-haha. Also there's the multiplication of letters to
be typed, when you have to type digraphs all the time. I tend to think that a
shift key is easier in the long run, and potentially faster, as long as you
don't use it very often, that is, use shift combos only for the lesser used
letters.

--
Ethan




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

The purpose of an orthography is to expedite and promote literacy.

I don't have much of a problem with Shavian but I do have
a slight problem with the ASCII representation used for the fonts.

There was a certain insensitivity and arbitrariness to some of the
sound-symbol correspondenes. Some of this is avoidable some not.
I think the ligatures can be initially avoided.

Some of the spelling errors below are due to the opaqueness of the
keyboard equivalents.

Unifon: an apcl and c nIs pEC
ENgliS: qn qpal qnd a nYs pEC.
Shavian: An Apal And a nFs pIC.
Spanglish: an appl and a nais piech [shows stress]
Truespel: an apul and u nies peech [shows stress]
Kirshenbaum: &n &p@l &nd @ nais piitS
SAMPA }n }p@l }nd @ nais piitS

Spanglish is the most like tradspel and the easiest to read.
However, Spanglish is positional and the sound symbol assignments
in one syllable words is not alwaysthe same as in multisyllable
words. In polysyllables, a is @ [schwa]. It has to be stressed
to be iterpreted as /ae/ as in axe.

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:

> Hi Mike
> A good first draft.
> Did you want me to edit it and point out the missed spellings?
>
> Unfortunately, there is no spell-checker out yet for the Shaw
> Alphabet.
>
> For example in your first paragraph. I noticed a few typos.
ENgliS
> You used E instead of F for seaside and night. sEsYd nYt
> Overlooks had a M instead of a U. trw viw/vyw
> You used T for (THE) insead of H Da Tug
> you have grin instead of green grEn
> and glum instead of gloom. glum glwm
> Unused needs a V unUzd unywzd
> and near is usually spelt nC or maybe nID nir or nia or niar
or nEr or nEar

ENgliS does not solve all the problems but it can represent
English dialects and also make sense of many traditional spellings.
eg. fear = fEar irrigate = irigAt
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/en/englis-chart.html

> P.S. It is good practice to always use a for a and not E.
> Likewise an for an.

Sound spelling involves spelling the way you speak but habits are
hard to overcome.

> --- In shavian@..., "Mike" <theomnis@y...> wrote:
> > It seems I almost forgot to provide the address.
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/theomnis/overruled.rtf

E lEdI n Jentulmen R sitiN on a cestxfIld in E rItFxd kPnx v H lQnJ
v a sIsEd [sIsFd] hotel.

a lAdE n Jentalman cr sitiN on a C[h]estafEld in a rEtYArd? korner
uv Da lounj uv a sEsYd hOtel.

**Is this supposed to be retired? rytYrd or ritYad in ENgliS.

Which is easier to read in the original? Which keyboard notation
would minimize the number of soundspelling errors?

Regards,
Steve


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Ethan

I would spell retired as ratFDd or ritFDd.
It is interesting how much variablity there is in the English vowel
sounds.

Regards, Paul V.

as for:
E lEdI n Jentulmen R sitiN on a cestxfIld in E rItFxd kPnx v H lQnJ
v a sIsEd [sIsFd] hotel.

a lAdE n Jentalman cr sitiN on a C[h]estafEld in a rEtYArd? korner
uv Da lounj uv a sEsYd hOtel.

**Is this supposed to be retired? rytYrd or ritYad




--- In shavian@..., "Steve Bett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
> The purpose of an orthography is to expedite and promote literacy.
>
> I don't have much of a problem with Shavian but I do have
> a slight problem with the ASCII representation used for the fonts.
>
> There was a certain insensitivity and arbitrariness to some of the
> sound-symbol correspondenes. Some of this is avoidable some not.
> I think the ligatures can be initially avoided.
>
> Some of the spelling errors below are due to the opaqueness of the
> keyboard equivalents.
>
> Unifon: an apcl and c nIs pEC
> ENgliS: qn qpal qnd a nYs pEC.
> Shavian: An Apal And a nFs pIC.
> Spanglish: an appl and a nais piech [shows stress]
> Truespel: an apul and u nies peech [shows stress]
> Kirshenbaum: &n &p@l &nd @ nais piitS
> SAMPA }n }p@l }nd @ nais piitS
>
> Spanglish is the most like tradspel and the easiest to read.
> However, Spanglish is positional and the sound symbol assignments
> in one syllable words is not alwaysthe same as in multisyllable
> words. In polysyllables, a is @ [schwa]. It has to be stressed
> to be iterpreted as /ae/ as in axe.
>
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Mike
> > A good first draft.
> > Did you want me to edit it and point out the missed spellings?
> >
> > Unfortunately, there is no spell-checker out yet for the Shaw
> > Alphabet.
> >
> > For example in your first paragraph. I noticed a few typos.
> ENgliS
> > You used E instead of F for seaside and night. sEsYd nYt
> > Overlooks had a M instead of a U. trw viw/vyw
> > You used T for (THE) insead of H Da Tug
> > you have grin instead of green grEn
> > and glum instead of gloom. glum glwm
> > Unused needs a V unUzd unywzd
> > and near is usually spelt nC or maybe nID nir or nia or niar
> or nEr or nEar
>
> ENgliS does not solve all the problems but it can represent
> English dialects and also make sense of many traditional spellings.
> eg. fear = fEar irrigate = irigAt
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/en/englis-chart.html
>
> > P.S. It is good practice to always use a for a and not E.
> > Likewise an for an.
>
> Sound spelling involves spelling the way you speak but habits are
> hard to overcome.
>
> > --- In shavian@..., "Mike" <theomnis@y...> wrote:
> > > It seems I almost forgot to provide the address.
> > >
> > > http://www.geocities.com/theomnis/overruled.rtf
>
> E lEdI n Jentulmen R sitiN on a cestxfIld in E rItFxd kPnx v H lQnJ
> v a sIsEd [sIsFd] hotel.
>
> a lAdE n Jentalman cr sitiN on a C[h]estafEld in a rEtYArd? korner
> uv Da lounj uv a sEsYd hOtel.
>
> **Is this supposed to be retired? rytYrd or ritYad in ENgliS.
>
> Which is easier to read in the original? Which keyboard notation
> would minimize the number of soundspelling errors?
>
> Regards,
> Steve


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

CMU posts a pronouncing dictionary on the web at
www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/cmudict. In it, a word like "cheese" is
transliterated as "CH IY Z", with spaces between the phonemes. With a
little manipulation, this could be transliterated into Shavian
letters "cIz". Of course, Carnegie Mellon University's file is in
American dialect, but if CMU has a list out there, maybe one of the UK
universities has a similar list in Received Pronounciation. We could
then have an official list of Shavian spellings.

Is this idea worth pursuing?

Gary


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

The British dictionary you are looking for is "BEEP".
A lot of people have already done this. I have
Shavian versions of both CMU and BEEP for automated
translation of English texts. The problem with the
CMU dictionary being American pronunciation is that
there are fewer sounds than what Shavian uses, so some
letters will never get used. BEEP dictionary uses all
the sounds, but separates rhotic sounds and adds "h+w"
as a single sound. But it is easy to convert BEEP
into Shavian with that file, and even write a utility
that converts normal Roman-based text into Shavian
text. The trick is getting the size and speed down.
I started playing around with a neural net that could
correctly predict pronunciation from even mispelled
words and words never encountered before when I got
busy with other things.


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005

Scott Stephens incurred the wrath of Bob on Jun 16, by saying

>The British dictionary you are looking for is "BEEP".
>A lot of people have already done this.

...because Shavian is exactly the geeky sort of thing that computer
programmers love. My utility for doing this is at
http://www.geocities.com/rschmertz/Shavian_Converter.html, and I first
mentioned it on the list in a message you can find at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/message/1364 . I now think used
the wrong approach to the whole thing, though.

I have more to say on this, but I'm at work now, and think I should
probably go and do some right about now...

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/