Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Thanks, I've already learned from your site that some of the letters
are compounds. I was really racking my brain trying to figure out
what SINGLE sound they represented. what a relief.

I'm going to put a beta of my Shavian Letter online game up tonight,
i'll post it as soon as i have it up.


--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...>
wrote:
> Hi Eric
>
> You could try my website at
http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/ - it will give you all
the information you need to get started, I think!
>
> Regards
> Hugh B
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric Draven
> To: shavian@...
> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 11:06 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: New here
>
>
> I'm actually been wanting to learn for awhile. I finally got the
time
> and I'm writing a online game to help me learn which letters are
> which.
>
> Can anyone point me to a websites that gives the actual names of
the
> letters?
>
>
> Nice to meet you hugh.
>
>
>
> --- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...>
> wrote:
> > Hi there Eric! Welcome to the group!
> >
> > Do you have much experience with the Shaw Alphabet or are you
> learning / hoping to learn?
> >
> >
>
>
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I've got it online. It quizzes you on all 48 basic shivan letters.
Right now it just goes on forever, i plan add a score and difficulty
levels. From there i'm going to add a "shivan word reading game"
where it gives you a word in shivan and you have to type it out in
roman characters. After that, I may clean up the appearance a bit.

Let me know what you think of the beta.



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Hi Joe
I believe you would have to put a hard G after finger (fiNgD)
but not after singer (siND).
Just like for banker (bFNkD), there is another phoneme,

Regards, Paul V.
_________________attached____________________________
--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> Are there any native words which contain this vowel +
> > tl + vowel combination where the "l" is not a syllable?
>
> The only one I can think of at the moment is butler. But the
> personal suffis -er does some weird things. It affects other
sounds,
> too. As far as I can tell, "ng" is always followed by a "g" when
it
> comes before a vowel, except before this suffix. This is
> why "finger" has a hard "g" and "singer" doesn't. So there is
really
> no need to write the "g" after "ng," as far as I know. For these
> distinctions, we may consider using abbreviations for common
suffixes
> (or even prefixes, for that matter).
>
> -AllegroX



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Hi Joe

Unfortunately, it will be difficult to create a Shaw letter or even a
diagraph for every possible English vowel vocalization.
As many English speaker pronounce aim, pain, fair and Dane, with the
long A (Em, pEn, fEr, DEn), it is probably considered a variant
pronunciation.
Interesting, you probably differentiate fair and fare, where as in my
pronunciation, they are homonyms.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. A Scots pronunciation?

___________________________attaached__________________


--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> I've noticed the same thing. I've had to use two letters to write
> what I consider a single phoneme. The letter Ian is great, but we
> need more like it. For example, how else would you distinguish
> aim/am, pain/pan, Dane/Dan? I have seen ash used for age + ado,
but
> we really need another letter. Using ash doesn't distinguish
aim/am,
> pain/pan, main/man. I think we need more letters for these
sounds.
> But for now I'm forced either to write them with two letters or
> invent letters of my own.
>
> -AllegroX
>
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > I also notice a non-intuitive Schwa at the end of some uncommon
> > Dipthongs, for which the Original Shaw Letter Ian, is a good
> example.
> > (Mamma Mia, India, idea). But there are other less common
> > examples, "oa", (boa, Mona Koa), Aia, (Iacocca).
> > I don't know if this sound is consistently applicable to General
> > American or British R.P. pronunciation.
> > But the question of how to handle these sounds does needs to be
> > addressed.



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Hi Ethan
I hear pain, aim and fair pronounced as a dipthong on occassion.
It would be spelt pAan, Aam and fAD/feD
instead of pEn, Em and fR.
It is normal pronunciation in some aaares of Britian.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> Joe wrote:
> > I've noticed the same thing. I've had to use two letters to
write
> > what I consider a single phoneme. The letter Ian is great, but
we
> > need more like it. For example, how else would you distinguish
> > aim/am, pain/pan, Dane/Dan? I have seen ash used for age + ado,
but
> > we really need another letter. Using ash doesn't distinguish
aim/am,
> > pain/pan, main/man. I think we need more letters for these
sounds.
> > But for now I'm forced either to write them with two letters or
> > invent letters of my own.
> >
> > -AllegroX
>
> I write aim, am: Em, Am (age-mime, ash-mime)
> Also pain, pan: pEn, pAn
> Dane, Dan: /dEn, /dAn
> main, man: mEn, mAn
>
> You get the idea. Different vowel sounds, not double vowels or
> diphthongs. At least that's the way I say it.
>
> --
> Ethan



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Hello,

For those of you running Mac OS X Jaguar I have created a Shavian
keyboard layout. This allows you to input Shavian in Unicode format
(using the Conscript code points). At some point in time this will be
updated to the code points that are officially adopted by the Unicode
Consortium. Of course this requires a Unicode font that can display
Shavian at those points. All this is available from my website at:
http://www.mithrandir.com/Shavian/Shavian.html

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86



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----- Original Message -----
From: paul vandenbrink <mailto:pvandenbrink@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 6:45 AM
Subject: [shavian] Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset - Bonus Round

Just like for banker (bFNkD)

You mean "bANkD"?
:-/

sabJekt: GpitmAn letD

1980 kPespondens wiT sx GJEmz pitmAn.

hiz t.O. trAnzkripSan v mF letD t him--riten in H SY Alfabet:

F red jUr invitESan in H GSY Alfabet ediSan v GAndoklIz n wUd aprISiEt hAviN H Adresez v Yl individValz hM rId n rFt wiT HIz 48 kXAktDz.

F wUd YlsO aprISiEt hAviN H Adresez v H Jqnt winDz wiH GkiNzlI rId n sIiN a kopi v H PiJinal dezFnz v Ic.

F lxnd meni TiNz from jUr bUk, Alfabets n rIdiN. GGrFemas

bUk, hQ HE mxdDd H sekond r, YlsO konvinsd mI on H vAlV v jUr F.t.E.

[Hen F menSand hAviN sent a rekwest t GpitmAn pabliSiN n not hAviN resIvd a respons.]

folOiN iz H respons: from sir james pitman, k.b.e.

58 chelsea park gardens,

london sw3 6ae, england 01-352 7004

sept.14th 80

dC mr. Gdesimas:

F enklOz a list v bUks avElabal in I.T.A.

from Gbriten. H GpitmAn bUks apC fxst.

[Hen hI refDz t H list, rekomendiN pRtikVlD volVmz, espeSali H tIcDz mAnVal, n givz H Adresez v sevDal pabliSDz. non v hiz letD woz riten in H GSY Alfabet. hI kontinVz: ]

F Am YlsO enklOziN a kopi v a rIsent Rtikal bF a sekondXi skMl hed v depRtment v remIdiESan wic V wil fFnd intxestiN n vXi Aplikabal fP H V.s. grEdz 3 in pRtikVlD. wen V rId it plIz pE atenSan t H pAsaJez mRkd mRJinali in pensil on p. 32 n 33. H pqnt iz HAt it iz not a krAS kPs fP F.t.E., eksept on HAt fxst dE, bat a kPs in F.t.E. in H nPmal kDikVlam wic, bIiN hAndald in F.t.E. givz H pVpalz H dEli inhQs prAktis in F.t.E. t giv Hem H skil in bOT rIdiN n rFitiN in F.t.E. sO HAt HE sMn bekam Ebal t rId n rFt (wiH gUd t.O. speliNz bIiN developd!) in bOT F.t.E. n t.O. HE Hen Jqn H mEn strImz in H skMlm, n nevD lUk bAk.

wen nekst V rFt--wic F hOp V wil dM--pklIz adres it t mF adres on H nOt pEpD n plIz rFt P tFprFt in t.O. it iz OvD 10 jCz sins F desFded not t stAnd fP pRliment bat t giv mF hOl tFm t promOtiN F.t.E. its YlsO som 20 jCz sins F woz Ebal t desFfD GSyvWn kXAktDz n, At mF EJ v 79, mF viZVal memPi hAz bekam a vXi wIk help. it Has tUk mI sevDal QDz t desFfD Iven H ekstrAkt v wic F enklOz a kopi.

Fm sori GpitmAnz fEld t replF. its YlsO a loN tFm sins F retFDd n sins retFDiN F hav ben kXfal t kIp rFt Qt from Ani intDfCens. H enklOzd bUk list wil SO V HAt GJEmz bromli, H prezent dCektD v H F.t.E. fQmdESan... iz vXi

efektiv in kXIiN H tPc.

Fm glAd V lFkd Alfabets n rIdiN bF GJPJ rEnDz. F woz vXi fond v him.

jUrz sinsCli, GJEmz pitmAn

[Aded aloN H top mRJin v H letDhed:]

GkiNzli rId hAz dFd. hQ impPtAnt iz it t hAv H Adresez n H PiJinal dezFnz v H oHD winDz? it wil tEk a lot v tFm t get Ani infPmESan AftD sO mAni jCz.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]][[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

kE kOd: rOman leterz IdentifI e kEz Uzd t transkrIb e shaw alfabet on e lIn belO them

_____________________________________________________________

pb td kg fv TH sz SZ cJ jw Nh lr mn iI eE AF a u oO UM Qq yY RP Xx DC W V

pb td kg fv TH sz SZ cJ jw Nh lr mn iI eE AF a u oO UM Qq yY RP Xx DC WV

________________________________or just the extra 29 non-roman leterz:_____

TH SZ cJ jw Nh iI eE AF a u oO UM Qq yY RP Xx DC W V

TH SZ cJ jw Nh iI eE AF a u oO UM Qq yY RP Xx DC WV









































































bbbbbbb











































t = to e = the v = of n = and

AEIOU az in Age Eat Ice Oak yoU

digrafs: ah au ch oo ou oi/oy sh th zh.

http://groups.msn.com/konsosiashunforspiritualiti



________________________________

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Hi Hugh

It is an interesting point. You are correct. (bANkD)
I don't really speak with a Liverpool accent.
I notice that in those English words where the "a" comes before
the "ng", sound I am stretching the "a" vowel to get to the "ng"
sound more fluidly. I typically write Dipthongs starting with "A"
as "F".
But you are right, it is closer to the long "a" of "Bah" or "sAaN"
(sang)

Regards, Paul V.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: paul vandenbrink
> To: shavian@...
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 6:45 AM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset - Bonus
Round
>
> Just like for banker (bFNkD)
> You mean "bANkD"?
> :-/



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I still don't see any need to write the hard G. We pronounce it that
way naturally based on its environment. In the middle of a word, it
will always have a hard g. At the end of a word, it will not. When
two words (or morphemes) are joined, the first one ending in ng, it
also doesn't get a hard g.
For an explanation of this, let's look to Anglo-Saxon (Old
English). In A-S, the NG was pronounced with a hard G in all
positions. The N was lost at the beginning of words, so we'll just
respell that as G. The hard G was lost at the end of words. Then
when words were combined or inflected, it still didn't have the hard
G. This has produced a highly regular pronunciation for this
phoneme. So as long as you know where the boundary is between
morphemes, you will also know how to pronounce the NGs.
It might be considered more formal to indicate the hard G, but
it's really not necessary. Of course, I also use some invented
letters of my own for common suffixes like the ED ending for the past
tense (or passive when it's formed that way) or for ING as it is used
with verbals. I would make one for the personal suffix ER, but it's
already one letter, anyway, and it's always the same. The purpose of
these letters is to reduce the most common morphemes to a single
letter whenever possible (i.e. when their pronunciation is decided by
their position.) I am very pleased with what I've come up with.

-AllegroX

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Joe
> I believe you would have to put a hard G after finger (fiNgD)
> but not after singer (siND).
> Just like for banker (bFNkD), there is another phoneme,
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> _________________attached____________________________
> --- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> > --- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> > Are there any native words which contain this vowel +
> > > tl + vowel combination where the "l" is not a syllable?
> >
> > The only one I can think of at the moment is butler. But the
> > personal suffis -er does some weird things. It affects other
> sounds,
> > too. As far as I can tell, "ng" is always followed by a "g" when
> it
> > comes before a vowel, except before this suffix. This is
> > why "finger" has a hard "g" and "singer" doesn't. So there is
> really
> > no need to write the "g" after "ng," as far as I know. For these
> > distinctions, we may consider using abbreviations for common
> suffixes
> > (or even prefixes, for that matter).
> >
> > -AllegroX



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