Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Ethan wrote:

(blank message)

Now that's strange. It appears my email program was doing funny things
without my knowlege! Sorry about the blank message. It wasn't sent on
purpose, and has nothing to do with the group.

--
Ethan



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Hi,

Let their be rejoicing!

Now can the people who make true type fonts for Shavian please encode
the glyphs at their proper Unicode code points. I have been using a
font created by Phillip Driscoll with the Shavian characters at their
temporary Unicode points, but that will need to be updated, and
unfortunately I do not have software to manipulate true type fonts. In
fact, I would like to have fonts that contain only the Shavian
characters at their Unicode points, with no other glyphs present. This
should work out best.

Once I have a proper font I will update all my documents to the proper
Unicode values.

Thanks. Have fun!

--Scott

On Wednesday, Apr 23, 2003, at 15:27 US/Eastern, Ethan wrote:

> Good news! Unicode 4.0 is now officially released, and Shavian is now
> officially a part of Unicode. I was especially happy to see that the
> "SHAVIAN
> LETTER RUN" has been corrected to "SHAVIAN LETTER NUN".
>
> The official data file for Unicode can be found at
> <http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt>
>
> I have included the Shavian portion below. The code points are in the
> first
> column.
> --
> Ethan
>
> 10450;SHAVIAN LETTER PEEP;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10451;SHAVIAN LETTER TOT;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10452;SHAVIAN LETTER KICK;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10453;SHAVIAN LETTER FEE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10454;SHAVIAN LETTER THIGH;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10455;SHAVIAN LETTER SO;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10456;SHAVIAN LETTER SURE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10457;SHAVIAN LETTER CHURCH;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10458;SHAVIAN LETTER YEA;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10459;SHAVIAN LETTER HUNG;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1045A;SHAVIAN LETTER BIB;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1045B;SHAVIAN LETTER DEAD;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1045C;SHAVIAN LETTER GAG;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1045D;SHAVIAN LETTER VOW;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1045E;SHAVIAN LETTER THEY;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1045F;SHAVIAN LETTER ZOO;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10460;SHAVIAN LETTER MEASURE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10461;SHAVIAN LETTER JUDGE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10462;SHAVIAN LETTER WOE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10463;SHAVIAN LETTER HA-HA;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10464;SHAVIAN LETTER LOLL;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10465;SHAVIAN LETTER MIME;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10466;SHAVIAN LETTER IF;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10467;SHAVIAN LETTER EGG;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10468;SHAVIAN LETTER ASH;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10469;SHAVIAN LETTER ADO;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1046A;SHAVIAN LETTER ON;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1046B;SHAVIAN LETTER WOOL;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1046C;SHAVIAN LETTER OUT;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1046D;SHAVIAN LETTER AH;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1046E;SHAVIAN LETTER ROAR;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1046F;SHAVIAN LETTER NUN;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10470;SHAVIAN LETTER EAT;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10471;SHAVIAN LETTER AGE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10472;SHAVIAN LETTER ICE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10473;SHAVIAN LETTER UP;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10474;SHAVIAN LETTER OAK;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10475;SHAVIAN LETTER OOZE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10476;SHAVIAN LETTER OIL;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10477;SHAVIAN LETTER AWE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10478;SHAVIAN LETTER ARE;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 10479;SHAVIAN LETTER OR;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1047A;SHAVIAN LETTER AIR;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1047B;SHAVIAN LETTER ERR;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1047C;SHAVIAN LETTER ARRAY;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1047D;SHAVIAN LETTER EAR;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1047E;SHAVIAN LETTER IAN;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1047F;SHAVIAN LETTER YEW;Lo;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
>
>
>
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On Thursday, Apr 24, 2003, at 08:53 US/Eastern, Newton, Philip wrote:

> Scott Harrison wrote:
>> Now can the people who make true type fonts for Shavian
>> please encode the glyphs at their proper Unicode code points.
>
> It would be nice if they also stayed in the Private Use area, since
> not all
> systems can access Plane 1 (or higher) characters (with a code >
> U+FFFF) --
> for example, Windows NT cannot. (I think Java [or some versions of
> it?] is
> limited to UCS-2 as well, i.e. only the BMP.)
>

I disagree. When Shavian is in the private use area anyone can
overwrite the meaning of the Shavian characters. However, when it is
defined where it now is everyone in the world will know that those
characters are Shavian characters no matter what.

It is unfortunate that there are systems out there that people use
that will not be able to handle Shavian. But the world moves on.
Remember that Microsoft is trying their hardest to kill all the
remaining NT machines out there (including mine).

>> In fact, I would like to have fonts that contain only the
>> Shavian characters at their Unicode points, with no other
>> glyphs present. This should work out best.
>
> You'll probably want at least punctuation and numbers as well, I would
> think.
>
> or else your sentences will simply be strung together like this there
> will
> be nothing to say where one begins and the other ends since you have no
> commas or full stops you can also not really write dates that is
> unless you
> write out the numbers such as today is the twenty fourth of april oops
> no
> quotes or hyphens either
>
>
Actually, no. Since I create documents with multiple alphabets in
them I rely on technology that allows a document to automatically
determine which fonts to use based on the characters in the document.
Therefore, I can create a document with Shavian, French and Bulgarian
in it and I do not need a single font that has Shavian, Latin and
Cyrillic characters in it. I can have three fonts that have each
separate and the system handles it all for me automatically.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86



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04/24/03 8:47:12 AM, Scott Harrison <scott@...> wrote:

>Hi,
>
> Let their be rejoicing!
>
> Now can the people who make true type fonts for Shavian please encode
>the glyphs at their proper Unicode code points. I have been using a
>font created by Phillip Driscoll with the Shavian characters at their
>temporary Unicode points, but that will need to be updated, and
>unfortunately I do not have software to manipulate true type fonts. In
>fact, I would like to have fonts that contain only the Shavian
>characters at their Unicode points, with no other glyphs present. This
>should work out best.
>
> Once I have a proper font I will update all my documents to the proper
>Unicode values.
>
> Thanks. Have fun!
>
>--Scott

Scott, I am currently in the final process of creating a Unicode font which
includes the Shavian characters both in their final location as well as in the
private use area, so that texts and web pages encoded at either location will
work with this font. It also contains the Latin-1 characters, and eventually
(as I have time to work on it) should contain the Greek and Cyrillic characters
as well, perhaps more. I intend for it to be a general-purpose Unicode font
that you can use for just about everything. I also will make versions with more
limited encodings, such as Shavian only in the Latin area, for viewing "Keyboard
Shavian" texts.

The current status of this font is basically, I have the Shavian portion done,
but still have some work to do on the Latin portion. As soon as that is
finished I will release it (probably under the GPL) on my website. I'll post
the location here when I get it done. That will be the difinitive location for
the most up-to-date version, since I will be improving it over time. I hope to
offer TrueType, Open Type, and bitmap (a.k.a. system or screen) fonts. I could
offer Adobe Type 1 fonts too, if anybody wants them. The problem is, they don't
work with Unicode encoding, but have their own Adobe-specific encoding, which
I'm not sure will be too useful, but they are available if needed. Oh, and I
can make Mac-format fonts too, but I can't test them!

Hope this will be useful.

--
Ethan





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04/24/03 1:52:12 PM, Scott Harrison <scott@...> wrote:

>
>On Thursday, Apr 24, 2003, at 08:53 US/Eastern, Newton, Philip wrote:
>
>> Scott Harrison wrote:
>>> Now can the people who make true type fonts for Shavian
>>> please encode the glyphs at their proper Unicode code points.
>>
>> It would be nice if they also stayed in the Private Use area, since
>> not all
>> systems can access Plane 1 (or higher) characters (with a code >
>> U+FFFF) --
>> for example, Windows NT cannot. (I think Java [or some versions of
>> it?] is
>> limited to UCS-2 as well, i.e. only the BMP.)
>>
>
> I disagree. When Shavian is in the private use area anyone can
>overwrite the meaning of the Shavian characters. However, when it is
>defined where it now is everyone in the world will know that those
>characters are Shavian characters no matter what.
>
> It is unfortunate that there are systems out there that people use
>that will not be able to handle Shavian. But the world moves on.
>Remember that Microsoft is trying their hardest to kill all the
>remaining NT machines out there (including mine).
>
>>> In fact, I would like to have fonts that contain only the
>>> Shavian characters at their Unicode points, with no other
>>> glyphs present. This should work out best.
>>
>> You'll probably want at least punctuation and numbers as well, I would
>> think.
>>
>> or else your sentences will simply be strung together like this there
>> will
>> be nothing to say where one begins and the other ends since you have no
>> commas or full stops you can also not really write dates that is
>> unless you
>> write out the numbers such as today is the twenty fourth of april oops
>> no
>> quotes or hyphens either
>>
>>
> Actually, no. Since I create documents with multiple alphabets in
>them I rely on technology that allows a document to automatically
>determine which fonts to use based on the characters in the document.
>Therefore, I can create a document with Shavian, French and Bulgarian
>in it and I do not need a single font that has Shavian, Latin and
>Cyrillic characters in it. I can have three fonts that have each
>separate and the system handles it all for me automatically.
>
>--
>Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

Hey, Scott! I downloaded the font on your website and tried to view the
material there, and the only thing that showed up was the Shavian text. The
Latin text was invisible. I found the reason to be because the font didn't
contain any glyphs for Latin, just blanks. So you have to remember, not all
people have systems that will piece together characters from one font or
another. So it's still good for a font to contain as many characters as
possible. But if there is a need for a font that contains only Shavian
characters, it's very easy for me to do, and I can offer that as an option as
well with my font.

Also, when I tried to download your keyboard dll, I got an error message. Could
you look into that? It seems to be trying to point me to 127.0.0.1, and of
course I can't access your localhost over the internet.

Talk to you later!

--
Ethan





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On 24 Apr 2003 at 13:52, Scott Harrison wrote:

> Actually, no. Since I create documents with multiple alphabets in
> them I rely on technology that allows a document to automatically
> determine which fonts to use based on the characters in the document.
> Therefore, I can create a document with Shavian, French and Bulgarian
> in it and I do not need a single font that has Shavian, Latin and
> Cyrillic characters in it. I can have three fonts that have each
> separate and the system handles it all for me automatically.

True, you do not need a single font if you have appropriate technology.
However, using one font that includes multiple scripts tends to imply
that the characters will look similar to one another and match up
optically.

If I have a Times-like font that includes only basic ASCII, a Helvetica-
like font that includes Greek, and a Courier-like font that includes
Cyrillic, and then write a text with English, Greek, and Bulgarian,
then it would look extremely ugly (to me) to have three so different
typefaces mixed haphazardly. Much better (in my opinion) to have one
font which includes all three scripts in a consistent style.

I already see that in my browser, which uses a serif font by default
but chooses another font to represent a character if necessary. If
someone uses IPA, then I might get "random" characters in a sans-serif
font because that font includes IPA while my main font does not. The
effect is a little disconcerting; it might be better if the document
used only the sans-serif font, since even if I do not like its look as
much, it would, at least, be uniform in appearance. (It also seems to
pick Japanese kanji and kana from two different fonts with different
baselines, which makes for a very jumpy effect.)

Opinions may vary on this.

Cheers,
Philip


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Philip scripsit:
> True, you do not need a single font if you have appropriate
technology.
> However, using one font that includes multiple scripts tends to
imply
> that the characters will look similar to one another and match up
> optically.
>
> If I have a Times-like font that includes only basic ASCII, a
Helvetica-
> like font that includes Greek, and a Courier-like font that
includes
> Cyrillic, and then write a text with English, Greek, and Bulgarian,
> then it would look extremely ugly (to me) to have three so
different
> typefaces mixed haphazardly. Much better (in my opinion) to have
one
> font which includes all three scripts in a consistent style.

I've found that documents with multiple scripts usually don't
have them mixed haphazardly. Rather, they tend to be in distinctly
seperate blocks or groups. But I agree that it would definitely be
easiere on the eyes if all the text were of a similar style. And
aside from that, most computers don't kern between different fonts.
This can make for ugly gaps in the text, or letters that are too
close together.


> I already see that in my browser, which uses a serif font by
default
> but chooses another font to represent a character if necessary. If
> someone uses IPA, then I might get "random" characters in a sans-
serif
> font because that font includes IPA while my main font does not.
The
> effect is a little disconcerting; it might be better if the
document
> used only the sans-serif font, since even if I do not like its look
as
> much, it would, at least, be uniform in appearance. (It also seems
to
> pick Japanese kanji and kana from two different fonts with
different
> baselines, which makes for a very jumpy effect.)

Really? What two Japanese fonts do you use? I have MS Mincho
and MS Gothic. I have my browser set to use Times New Roman for
Roman text and MS Gothic for Japanese text, and I think they work
well together. But I haven't noticed any different baselines.
However, I don't usually see the two fonts next to each other. I
also used to have a font from Union Way, which had a very ugly name
that started with "UWMG," but I can't remember the rest.

-AllegroX



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On 25 Apr 2003 at 1:02, Joe wrote:

> Philip scripsit:
> > ([My browser] also seems to pick Japanese kanji and
> > kana from two different fonts with different
> > baselines, which makes for a very jumpy effect.)
>
> Really? What two Japanese fonts do you use?

I think the problem may be that I have not only Japanese, but also
Traditional and Simplified Chinese fonts on my system, so it might be
picking up the kana from a Japanese font and the kanji from a Chinese
one.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>



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On Thursday, Apr 24, 2003, at 14:31 US/Eastern, Ethan wrote:

>
> Hey, Scott! I downloaded the font on your website and tried to view
> the
> material there, and the only thing that showed up was the Shavian
> text. The
> Latin text was invisible. I found the reason to be because the font
> didn't
> contain any glyphs for Latin, just blanks. So you have to remember,
> not all
> people have systems that will piece together characters from one font
> or
> another. So it's still good for a font to contain as many characters
> as
> possible. But if there is a need for a font that contains only Shavian
> characters, it's very easy for me to do, and I can offer that as an
> option as
> well with my font.
>

Which font did you download? I thought things in this area would be
working properly.

> Also, when I tried to download your keyboard dll, I got an error
> message. Could
> you look into that? It seems to be trying to point me to 127.0.0.1,
> and of
> course I can't access your localhost over the internet.
>
>
I see the problem. I made the web server redirect all requests for a
DLL to 127.0.0.1 in an attempt to get around all the machines out there
that are infected with a virus. That of course made the real attempt
to get the one DLL I have on my site fail. I will attempt to make it
so this one DLL is downloadable.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86



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04/29/03 1:04:42 AM, Scott Harrison <scott@...> wrote:

> Which font did you download? I thought things in this area would be
>working properly.
>

I downloaded the only one listed under Windows fonts, the link was
http://www.mithrandir.com/Shavian/cshaws2u.ttf

> I see the problem. I made the web server redirect all requests for a
>DLL to 127.0.0.1 in an attempt to get around all the machines out there
>that are infected with a virus. That of course made the real attempt
>to get the one DLL I have on my site fail. I will attempt to make it
>so this one DLL is downloadable.
>
>--
>Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

Yes, I understand that one. I run an Apache web server on my Linux machine, and
I find those all the time in my server log. Of course I have no dlls on my
machine, being a Linux box, so all they get is a 404.

The simplest thing would be to put your dll in a zip file. Or a tarball, for us
in the Linux/Unix crowd! But I can do zips too.

--
Ethan





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