Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

You've hit the nail squarely on the head regarding err and up. Use them only when stressed. That's the only difference there is between them and array and ado. It's there as a clever means of indicating the stress in the words without having to resort to accentation (in accordance with Shaw's wish that the alphabet "not use diacritical marks").

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Schmertz <mailto:rschmertz@...>
To: Mike <mailto:theomnis@...>
Cc: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] (unknown)

IMHO as a fellow American, one who believes that there should be little
if any difference between American and British/other spelling in
Shavian, I'd say "err" and "up" should not be used anywhere near as much
as their unstressed counterparts, "array" and "ado". Many of us prefer
to use the former two letters only in stressed positions in words. I'd
use "up" in "something" and "does" below, but not "dialect" or
"American". And I would use "err" in "word" and "prefer", but not
"father", letter, or "preference".

On Wed, 7 May 2003, Mike wrote:

>That's good...I did use "ah" in father, so that means I'm doing
>something correctly. I seem to be using "err" and "up" quite a bit,
>does anyone know if this is normal for my dialect?
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz




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I wouldn't say that the 'ar' in "Richard" would use 'err' as it's not stressed (the stress is on the "Rich"), or in "available" (stress on the "vail").

Definitely use 'err' in the "mur" in "muder" (the stress is on it) but 'array' for the "er" at the end (no stress).

Hugh B

P.S. in the simplified Shaw subset, we can surely merge the two pairs of letters, as I still think it works. But for conventional Shavian (which we're talking about now) they should still remain distinguished.

----- Original Message -----
From: paul vandenbrink <mailto:pvandenbrink@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:39 PM
Subject: [shavian] Pronunciation - Up and Err

Hi Craig

I agree with you in that I prefer to use array and ado by default,
and only use Err and Up when those sounds are uncommonly stressed out.
Say for example when those 2 sounds start a syllable. (i.e. Rich-ard,
Seven-Up, Umbrella, Urge and the A in Available.)

As a counter example, in the words Mirror and Murder, I would always
use the Shaw Letter Array.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. And of course I would support any proposition to consolidate
such letters, where their is such a slight distinction in American
Pronunciation.

P.P.S. My pronunciation is Mid-West Canadian

_____________attached_________________

--- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
> IMHO as a fellow American, one who believes that there should be
little
> if any difference between American and British/other spelling in
> Shavian, I'd say "err" and "up" should not be used anywhere near as
much
> as their unstressed counterparts, "array" and "ado". Many of us
prefer
> to use the former two letters only in stressed positions in words.
I'd
> use "up" in "something" and "does" below, but not "dialect" or
> "American". And I would use "err" in "word" and "prefer", but not
> "father", letter, or "preference".
>
> On Wed, 7 May 2003, Mike wrote:
>
> >That's good...I did use "ah" in father, so that means I'm doing
> >something correctly. I seem to be using "err" and "up" quite a
bit,
> >does anyone know if this is normal for my dialect?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Bob Schmertz



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



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Hi Raven, Craig and Hugh
I notice serious differences in how we are all using the Shaw
letters "err" and "Array". It doesn't seem to be strictly speaking a
British, American split, although British speakers appear to prefer
to use the "Array" letter to indicate a potential Non-Rhotic
pronunciation. I think the problem is that we have not really defined
the difference in sound between these two letters. Can everyone send
in a list of words that use these sounds, and maybe I can figure out
the difference. Let's avoid using murder. It's been done to death.
Sorry Hugh, I do not think it is simply a matter of stressed or un-
stressed. In that case, there would be no reason to have 2 letters,
when one would be sufficient.

I can hear a differeence between "Ado" (Schwa) and the "Up" letter.
But I find the "Array" / "Err" sound difference to be too subtle to
nail down.

"Array/ " "Err/Urge"

ermine irksome
richer Rich-ard
her herd/heard
fur further
tailor urgent
turn purge
learn burn
cur earn/urn
courage early
courtesy
fern
furnace
spurn
Turk
turkey
mirror

Regards, Paul V.


_______________attached_______________________________________

--- In shavian@..., embryomystic@c... wrote:
> Of course, in my dialect (or idiolect), both syllables of murder
are stressed equally. mxdx. I think...
>
> Raven
>
>
> > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] Pronunciation - Up and Err
> > ** Original Sender: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...>
> > ** Original Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 19:35:59 -0400 (EDT)
>
> > ** Original Message follows...
>
> >
> > I wouldn't say that the 'ar' in "Richard" would use 'err' as it's
not stressed (the stress is on the "Rich"), or in "available" (stress
on the "vail")..
> >
> > Definitely use 'err' in the "mur" in "muder" (the stress is on
it) but 'array' for the "er" at the end (no stress).
> >
> > Hugh B
> >
> > P.S. in the simplified Shaw subset, we can surely merge the two
pairs of letters, as I still think it works. But for conventional
Shavian (which we're talking about now) they should still remain
distinguished.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: paul vandenbrink
> > To: shavian@...
> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:39 PM
> > Subject: [shavian] Pronunciation - Up and Err
> >
> >
> > Hi Craig
> >
> > I agree with you in that I prefer to use array and ado by
default,
> > and only use Err and Up when those sounds are uncommonly
stressed out.
> > Say for example when those 2 sounds start a syllable. (i.e.
Rich-ard,
> > Seven-Up, Umbrella, Urge and the A in Available.)
> >
> > As a counter example, in the words Mirror and Murder, I would
always
> > use the Shaw Letter Array.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> >
> > P.S. And of course I would support any proposition to
consolidate
> > such letters, where their is such a slight distinction in
American
> > Pronunciation.
> >
> > P.P.S. My pronunciation is Mid-West Canadian
> >
> > _____________attached_________________
> >
> > --- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...>
wrote:
> > > IMHO as a fellow American, one who believes that there should
be
> > little
> > > if any difference between American and British/other spelling
in
> > > Shavian, I'd say "err" and "up" should not be used anywhere
near as
> > much
> > > as their unstressed counterparts, "array" and "ado". Many of
us
> > prefer
> > > to use the former two letters only in stressed positions in
words.
> > I'd
> > > use "up" in "something" and "does" below, but not "dialect"
or
> > > "American". And I would use "err" in "word" and "prefer",
but not
> > > "father", letter, or "preference".
> > >
> > > On Wed, 7 May 2003, Mike wrote:
> > >
> > > >That's good...I did use "ah" in father, so that means I'm
doing
> > > >something correctly. I seem to be using "err" and "up"
quite a
> > bit,
> > > >does anyone know if this is normal for my dialect?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > > Bob Schmertz
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
>
> >
>
> ---
>
> A tiger can smile
> A snake will say it loves you
> Lies make us evil



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paul vandenbrink wrote:
> Hi Raven, Craig and Hugh
> I notice serious differences in how we are all using the Shaw
> letters "err" and "Array". It doesn't seem to be strictly speaking a
> British, American split, although British speakers appear to prefer
> to use the "Array" letter to indicate a potential Non-Rhotic
> pronunciation. I think the problem is that we have not really defined
> the difference in sound between these two letters. Can everyone send
> in a list of words that use these sounds, and maybe I can figure out
> the difference. Let's avoid using murder. It's been done to death.
> Sorry Hugh, I do not think it is simply a matter of stressed or un-
> stressed. In that case, there would be no reason to have 2 letters,
> when one would be sufficient.
>
> I can hear a differeence between "Ado" (Schwa) and the "Up" letter.
> But I find the "Array" / "Err" sound difference to be too subtle to
> nail down.
>
> "Array/ " "Err/Urge"
>
> ermine irksome
> richer Rich-ard
> her herd/heard
> fur further
> tailor urgent
> turn purge
> learn burn
> cur earn/urn
> courage early
> courtesy
> fern
> furnace
> spurn
> Turk
> turkey
> mirror
>
> Regards, Paul V.

Well, this list is interesting. I pronounce every one of these words
using the exact same sound. That's why it has been difficult for me to
figure out which letter to use. I also distinguish between Up and Ado,
and there is a distinct difference in sound quality between them. But
when it comes to words like those above, I pronounce the "er" sounds the
same throughout. I don't distinguish any difference with regards to
accented or non-accented syllables, it's no different than any other
English vowel sound, which can have either a strong (á), light (à), or
no accent (a), for example, cònsístent, rèsignátion, hérder, bétter,
éasìer, arráy, érr, garáge/gárage, ... Wouldn't we be better off
indicating stress using marked letters, whenever it's thought necessary,
rather than using separate letters depending on stress? To be really
accurate, we'd need three different forms of each and every vowel!

My preference has always been to write this sound using the letter Err,
not because of how easy or difficult it is to write by hand, but because
it cannot be confused with Ado + Roar as the letter Array can. If
someone were to change the name to something which always represents the
sound of the letter, then I might be inclined to use Array because, as
has been said, it is a little bit easier to write by hand. But the name
appears to be fairly permanent, and the two letters are each available,
so I would be inclined to teach those who speak as I do to use whichever
letter they are most comfortable using, and to be consistent.

--
Ethan



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This is how the lists should look:

"Array"
Rich-ard
richer
tailor
mirror

"Err"
ermine
irksome
her
fur
turn
learn
cur
courage (if not "up"+"roll")
courtesy
fern
furnace
spurn
Turk
turkey
herd/heard
further
urgent
purge
burn
earn/urn
early

It may sound "too simple" that the only difference is stress. But that's how it is.

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: paul vandenbrink <mailto:pvandenbrink@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 5:18 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Pronunciation - Up and Err

Hi Raven, Craig and Hugh
I notice serious differences in how we are all using the Shaw
letters "err" and "Array". It doesn't seem to be strictly speaking a
British, American split, although British speakers appear to prefer
to use the "Array" letter to indicate a potential Non-Rhotic
pronunciation. I think the problem is that we have not really defined
the difference in sound between these two letters. Can everyone send
in a list of words that use these sounds, and maybe I can figure out
the difference. Let's avoid using murder. It's been done to death.
Sorry Hugh, I do not think it is simply a matter of stressed or un-
stressed. In that case, there would be no reason to have 2 letters,
when one would be sufficient.

I can hear a differeence between "Ado" (Schwa) and the "Up" letter.
But I find the "Array" / "Err" sound difference to be too subtle to
nail down.

"Array/ " "Err/Urge"

ermine irksome
richer Rich-ard
her herd/heard
fur further
tailor urgent
turn purge
learn burn
cur earn/urn
courage early
courtesy
fern
furnace
spurn
Turk
turkey
mirror

Regards, Paul V.


_______________attached_______________________________________

--- In shavian@..., embryomystic@c... wrote:
> Of course, in my dialect (or idiolect), both syllables of murder
are stressed equally. mxdx. I think...
>
> Raven
>
>
> > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] Pronunciation - Up and Err
> > ** Original Sender: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...>
> > ** Original Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 19:35:59 -0400 (EDT)
>
> > ** Original Message follows...
>
> >
> > I wouldn't say that the 'ar' in "Richard" would use 'err' as it's
not stressed (the stress is on the "Rich"), or in "available" (stress
on the "vail")..
> >
> > Definitely use 'err' in the "mur" in "muder" (the stress is on
it) but 'array' for the "er" at the end (no stress).
> >
> > Hugh B
> >
> > P.S. in the simplified Shaw subset, we can surely merge the two
pairs of letters, as I still think it works. But for conventional
Shavian (which we're talking about now) they should still remain
distinguished.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: paul vandenbrink
> > To: shavian@...
> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:39 PM
> > Subject: [shavian] Pronunciation - Up and Err
> >
> >
> > Hi Craig
> >
> > I agree with you in that I prefer to use array and ado by
default,
> > and only use Err and Up when those sounds are uncommonly
stressed out.
> > Say for example when those 2 sounds start a syllable. (i.e.
Rich-ard,
> > Seven-Up, Umbrella, Urge and the A in Available.)
> >
> > As a counter example, in the words Mirror and Murder, I would
always
> > use the Shaw Letter Array.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> >
> > P.S. And of course I would support any proposition to
consolidate
> > such letters, where their is such a slight distinction in
American
> > Pronunciation.
> >
> > P.P.S. My pronunciation is Mid-West Canadian
> >
> > _____________attached_________________
> >
> > --- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...>
wrote:
> > > IMHO as a fellow American, one who believes that there should
be
> > little
> > > if any difference between American and British/other spelling
in
> > > Shavian, I'd say "err" and "up" should not be used anywhere
near as
> > much
> > > as their unstressed counterparts, "array" and "ado". Many of
us
> > prefer
> > > to use the former two letters only in stressed positions in
words.
> > I'd
> > > use "up" in "something" and "does" below, but not "dialect"
or
> > > "American". And I would use "err" in "word" and "prefer",
but not
> > > "father", letter, or "preference".
> > >
> > > On Wed, 7 May 2003, Mike wrote:
> > >
> > > >That's good...I did use "ah" in father, so that means I'm
doing
> > > >something correctly. I seem to be using "err" and "up"
quite a
> > bit,
> > > >does anyone know if this is normal for my dialect?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > > Bob Schmertz
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
>
> >
>
> ---
>
> A tiger can smile
> A snake will say it loves you
> Lies make us evil



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----- Original Message -----
From: Ethan <mailto:ethanl@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Pronunciation - Up and Err

Wouldn't we be better off indicating stress using marked letters, whenever it's thought necessary, rather than using separate letters depending on stress? To be really accurate, we'd need three different forms of each and every vowel!

For one, it was one of the 'conditions' of the alphabet that NO diacritical marks be used (i.e. no accents). Imagine Shavian littered with accents - with English's complex stress patterns, that would mean on more or less every word. This is what Shaw wanted to avoid and what we should not forget.

The 'ado'/'up' + 'array'/'err' solution is surely the best compromise? The stress of the vast majority of English words can be determined by simply making the distinction between these letters. Like it or not this is how Shavian works and it can be made to work well if people recognise where stress is and where stress isn't. All major dictionaries indicate where stress is - they can be consulted easily if the position of stress is in doubt.

My preference has always been to write this sound using the letter Err,
not because of how easy or difficult it is to write by hand, but because
it cannot be confused with Ado + Roar as the letter Array can.

Would you need to separate 'array' into 'ado'+'roar'?

Hugh B

On Mon, 12 May 2003, Hugh Birkenhead wrote:

>Would you need to separate 'array' into 'ado'+'roar'?
>

I would do so for "around". In fact, I'm even inclined to do so for the
word "array", notwithstanding the fact that in TO it is broken down as
"ar-ray".

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz



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----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Schmertz <mailto:rschmertz@...>
To: Shavian List <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 2:36 AM
Subject: [shavian] ado + roar

On Mon, 12 May 2003, Hugh Birkenhead wrote:

>Would you need to separate 'array' into 'ado'+'roar'?
>

I would do so for "around". In fact, I'm even inclined to do so for the
word "array", notwithstanding the fact that in TO it is broken down as
"ar-ray".

Array has two 'r's because it is descended from Latin 'arredare' (where the stress was on the 'a'). It has no bearing on modern pronunciation.

But, I see your point. There should be no harm by separating them to differentiate it from the rhotic schwa - Androcles does exactly the same with many words.

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz

Hugh B

Hi all,

In my opinion as to this whole phonetic fiasco, I think it is most
important to be consistent when using characters. Because some
people cannot differentiate between certain sounds, I feel that they
should simply choose one letter for the sound, and use that
consistently. It is far better to be consistent than to attempt to
use the correct characters and further complicate things.

Just my two cents...

-Mike Stolz



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Hi Ethan & Hugh
As I said before, we may be putting the cart before the horse.
That is to say that it may just be that the way that words in English are
stressed is such that only syllables with an embedded "err" sound are
eligible to be stressed.

Using Hugh's list of words as a sample let me suggest a simpler way to
determine which sound is pronounced as "Array" and which word is pronounced
"Err/Urge". This rule only pertains, to those people who can hear the
difference. If you can't hear the difference, probably you should always
use "Err", since it appears to be more common in ordinary English
Pronunciation.

The 6 rules are based on the position of "er" sound in the syllable, so
you would have to know the syllable breaks of the word.

1. If the er-sound begins a word or is in the first syllable, it will be
the "Err" sound.
2. If the er-sound is embedded within or ends a one syllable word, it will
be the "Err" sound.
3. If the er-sound is not in the first syllable and is a complete syllable
in itself, then it will be the "Array" sound.
4. If the er-sound ends a two or greater syllable word, or starts the final
syllable, it will be the "Array" sound.
5. Otherwise if the er-sound begins or ends a later syllable (not the first
syllable) it is probably an "Array".
6. If the er-sound is embedded in a later syllable (not the
first syllable) between 2 consonants, it is probably an "Err".

Perhaps, some who distinguishes these two sounds, can suggest some other
words, that would be an exception to these rules.
All of Hugh's words, seem to be spelt in manner consistent with the rules.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. While examining the list, I noticed Array should be pronounced "Err"
"Roar" "Egg" like "Hurrah", but in fact it is usually pronounced "Ado"
"Roar" "Egg" like "a ray" . I don' t think this letter has an appropriate
name.
In fact, According to the rules, there shouldn't be an English word
starting with this sound?
Any suggestions on how to get out of this conundrum?



>This is how the lists should look:
>
>"Array"
>Richard
>richer
>tailor
>mirror

rider
braggart
southern

>"Err"

earth

>ermine
>irksome
>her
>fur
>turn
>learn
>cur
>courage (if not "up"+"roll")
>courtesy
>fern
>furnace
>spurn
>Turk
>turkey
>herd/heard
>further
>urgent
>purge
>burn
>earn/urn
>early
>
>It may sound "too simple" that the only difference is stress. But that's
>how it is.
>
>Hugh B
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:pvandenbrink@...>paul vandenbrink
>To: <mailto:shavian@...>shavian@...
>Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 5:18 PM
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Pronunciation - Up and Err
>
>Hi Raven, Craig and Hugh
> I notice serious differences in how we are all using the Shaw
>letters "err" and "Array". It doesn't seem to be strictly speaking a
>British, American split, although British speakers appear to prefer
>to use the "Array" letter to indicate a potential Non-Rhotic
>pronunciation. I think the problem is that we have not really defined
>the difference in sound between these two letters. Can everyone send
>in a list of words that use these sounds, and maybe I can figure out
>the difference. Let's avoid using murder. It's been done to death.
>Sorry Hugh, I do not think it is simply a matter of stressed or un-
>stressed. In that case, there would be no reason to have 2 letters,
>when one would be sufficient.
>
>I can hear a differeence between "Ado" (Schwa) and the "Up" letter.
>But I find the "Array" / "Err" sound difference to be too subtle to
>nail down.
>
>"Array/ " "Err/Urge"
>
>ermine irksome
>richer Rich-ard
>her herd/heard
>fur further
>tailor urgent
>turn purge
>learn burn
>cur earn/urn
>courage early
>courtesy
>fern
>furnace
>spurn
>Turk
>turkey
>mirror
>
>Regards, Paul V.
>
>
>
>_______________attached_______________________________________
>
>--- In shavian@..., embryomystic@c... wrote:
> > Of course, in my dialect (or idiolect), both syllables of murder
>are stressed equally. mxdx. I think...
> >
> > Raven
> >
> >
> > > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] Pronunciation - Up and Err
> > > ** Original Sender: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...>
> > > ** Original Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 19:35:59 -0400 (EDT)
> >
> > > ** Original Message follows...
> >
> > >
> > > I wouldn't say that the 'ar' in "Richard" would use 'err' as it's
>not stressed (the stress is on the "Rich"), or in "available" (stress
>on the "vail")..
> > >
> > > Definitely use 'err' in the "mur" in "muder" (the stress is on
>it) but 'array' for the "er" at the end (no stress).
> > >
> > > Hugh B
> > >
> > > P.S. in the simplified Shaw subset, we can surely merge the two
>pairs of letters, as I still think it works. But for conventional
>Shavian (which we're talking about now) they should still remain
>distinguished.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: paul vandenbrink
> > > To: shavian@...
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:39 PM
> > > Subject: [shavian] Pronunciation - Up and Err
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Craig
> > >
> > > I agree with you in that I prefer to use array and ado by
>default,
> > > and only use Err and Up when those sounds are uncommonly
>stressed out.
> > > Say for example when those 2 sounds start a syllable. (i.e.
>Rich-ard,
> > > Seven-Up, Umbrella, Urge and the A in Available.)
> > >
> > > As a counter example, in the words Mirror and Murder, I would
>always
> > > use the Shaw Letter Array.
> > >
> > > Regards, Paul V.
> > >
> > > P.S. And of course I would support any proposition to
>consolidate
> > > such letters, where their is such a slight distinction in
>American
> > > Pronunciation.
> > >
> > > P.P.S. My pronunciation is Mid-West Canadian
> > >
> > > _____________attached_________________
> > >
> > > --- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...>
>wrote:
> > > > IMHO as a fellow American, one who believes that there should
>be
> > > little
> > > > if any difference between American and British/other spelling
>in
> > > > Shavian, I'd say "err" and "up" should not be used anywhere
>near as
> > > much
> > > > as their unstressed counterparts, "array" and "ado". Many of
>us
> > > prefer
> > > > to use the former two letters only in stressed positions in
>words.
> > > I'd
> > > > use "up" in "something" and "does" below, but not "dialect"
>or
> > > > "American". And I would use "err" in "word" and "prefer",
>but not
> > > > "father", letter, or "preference".
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 7 May 2003, Mike wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >That's good...I did use "ah" in father, so that means I'm
>doing
> > > > >something correctly. I seem to be using "err" and "up"
>quite a
> > > bit,
> > > > >does anyone know if this is normal for my dialect?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Bob Schmertz
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>Service.
> >
> >
> > >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
> >
> > >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > A tiger can smile
> > A snake will say it loves you
> > Lies make us evil
>
>
>
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