Shavian eGroup Archive Browser
From: pgabhart@...
Date: 2003-07-19 01:04:25 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] aesthetics
Toggle Shavian
Hugh:
[Hugh Birkenhead wrote:]
Paige
My view is this: In the desire to allow letters to connect more fluidly in
handwriting, Read to a large degree sacrificed the cleanliness and
consistency of the individual letter shapes in Quikscript. The need to
create a clean typeface for print was not on the top of his mind.
I appreciate the point you are making and understand it to some extent. However, I assume the "consistency" you are referring to concerns the reversed letter pairs for voiced and unvoiced consonants. In my opinion, most speakers of English could not care less about this although this symmetry of design apparently appeals to people interested in alphabets. Since non-linguists do not think about whether a letter is voiced or unvoiced as they write, I cannot believe the presence or absence of such pairs affects how quickly a student learns to read. In TO lower case "b" and "d" are mirror images. Would it have been easier for beginning readers to associate the appropriate sound with each symbol if the "b" had represented the "t" phoneme? (so that "d" and "t" were paired) I think not.
By the way, I just noticed that I am using a variable width font in this post. Is there a variable width Shavian font? And if not, would it not make sense to introduce one. I recently noticed that Shavian in a fixed width font looks as clunky as TO does in a fixed width font. I believe even Gutenberg allowed less space for an "i" than he did for an "m."
We must bear in mind that Read was working with "ever-circulars" in the
build-up to the creation of Quikscript. This meant the only feedback on
Shavian he was getting was through handwriting in letters - so obviously it
was easy to worry about how easy the alphabet was to write in cursive
handwriting. There were to be no more typefaces made, as there was no money,
so the emphasis was quite understandably on an alphabet built first and
foremost for cursive handwriters.
While back then, with no computers or typefaces, the priority had to be
making it work with cursive handwriting, today the importance can once again
be put back with making a clear, attractive alphabet for print purposes.
People do not need to write cursively any more - they only need to be able
to type, as typing has the inherent ability of being faster than
conventional handwriting - and indeed, most people I know now prefer to
write, when they do need to write, in a printed fashion as it guarantees
ease of legibility.
I would question the preceding paragraph on several grounds.
A) People do not write cursive anymore: 1) Until a month ago or so (when he managed to get back online), I wrote letters and posted them by snail mail to my brother, who is with the Coalition Forces in Iraq. Some letters I wrote on the computer, but several times I wrote them out in cursive TO using pen and ink because I enjoyed it. Perhaps, I am a fossil. :-) 2) I have clients who bring me information regarding their cases written out in cursive. Yes, I also have clients who print, but at least as many use cursive as use print. 3) when I make notes in a file, I use cursive TO or Quikscript. I virtually never print, and my secretary seldom asks me to decipher what I have written.
B) [People] only need to be able to type. I agree that typing has the "inherent ability of being faster than conventional handwriting." However, my impression, partially derived from a few experiences in chat rooms, is that many, if not the majority, of people using computers are not touch typists. They cannot type faster than about 20 words per minute and that is with all kinds of errors. It seems likely to me that most people could still write faster than they can type. The big breakthrough they are waiting for is dictating to their computers. No doubt that is just a matter of time.
C) Most people prefer to write in a printed fashion. 1) This does not seem to be true where I live. A study on this would be interesting to see how accurate your impression is. Regarding increased legibility: this is only anecdotal, but my step-son prints, and his printing is virtually illegible. I would agree that printing is generally more legible than most people's cursive, but that is generally due to haste, and poorly formed characters or personal habits that alter the shapes of letters. Increased legibility is certainly not "guaranteed."
So in my opinion, the old requirement that letters join together perfectly
for cursive script is no longer urgent, because cursive script is no longer
an urgent priority. In looking for a replacement alphabet for English,
thanks to computers we can concentrate on making the print form legible and
ultimately pleasant to the eye. I believe Shavian is perfect for the job.
I agree the foregoing has some validity, but I believe people will continue to make notes and write with pens and pencils for some time to come. Despite the advantages of PDAs, in my opinion, there still is no substitute for jotting down a quick note with a pen for ease and convenience. (I do use a PDA, by the way, but for the search capabilities and ability to synchronize it with my computer). I certainly do not use it for "fun" of having to write with "graffiti" which is slower than writing by hand.
Paige Gabhart
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From: Star Raven
Date: 2003-07-19 02:55:49 #
Subject: [shavian] My long promised qwerty setup
Toggle Shavian
Alright, since I don't have a shavian font or a font creator at the
moment, I will post here for your perusal my feelings about the
keyboard arrangement. Feel free to complain at your convenience. If you
are wondering, I based this on my own typing experience as a writer of
several very long works, and this seems logical to me
Letter Q W E R T Y U I O P
Normal (.) kick ha peep tot lol ch fee sh
Shift gag ng bib deed roar j vow zh
A S D F G H J K L
out wool on if ash ado egg ah ian
oi ooze oh eat ice up age awe
Z X C V B N M
are air array yea they whip so
or ergot ear yew thigh woe zoo
Enjoy!
--Star
=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"
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From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2003-07-19 03:11:15 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] My long promised qwerty setup
Toggle Shavian
One thing before I analyse it 'properly'...
What in heaven's name is an "ergot"??? :-P
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
To: "Shavian Group" <shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 2:55 AM
Subject: [shavian] My long promised qwerty setup
> Alright, since I don't have a shavian font or a font creator at the
> moment, I will post here for your perusal my feelings about the
> keyboard arrangement. Feel free to complain at your convenience. If you
> are wondering, I based this on my own typing experience as a writer of
> several very long works, and this seems logical to me
>
> Letter Q W E R T Y U I O P
> Normal (.) kick ha peep tot lol ch fee sh
> Shift gag ng bib deed roar j vow zh
>
> A S D F G H J K L
> out wool on if ash ado egg ah ian
> oi ooze oh eat ice up age awe
>
> Z X C V B N M
> are air array yea they whip so
> or ergot ear yew thigh woe zoo
>
> Enjoy!
> --Star
>
> =====
> "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster
killing...Hello!"
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2003-07-19 03:11:37 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] My long promised qwerty setup
Toggle Shavian
One thing before I analyse it 'properly'...
What in heaven's name is an "ergot"??? :-P
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
To: "Shavian Group" <shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 2:55 AM
Subject: [shavian] My long promised qwerty setup
> Alright, since I don't have a shavian font or a font creator at the
> moment, I will post here for your perusal my feelings about the
> keyboard arrangement. Feel free to complain at your convenience. If you
> are wondering, I based this on my own typing experience as a writer of
> several very long works, and this seems logical to me
>
> Letter Q W E R T Y U I O P
> Normal (.) kick ha peep tot lol ch fee sh
> Shift gag ng bib deed roar j vow zh
>
> A S D F G H J K L
> out wool on if ash ado egg ah ian
> oi ooze oh eat ice up age awe
>
> Z X C V B N M
> are air array yea they whip so
> or ergot ear yew thigh woe zoo
>
> Enjoy!
> --Star
>
> =====
> "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster
killing...Hello!"
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Buy No Snore & Get a Good Night's Sleep. Natural Oral Spray -- $24.95
> (1 bottle, 1 month supply, with sweet almond oil, eucalyptus oil & more).
> http://www.challengerone.com/t/l.asp?cid=2881&lp=h515.html
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/2oMABA/nuYGAA/ySSFAA/mx3olB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2003-07-19 03:49:35 #
Subject: [shavian] Moderatorship of this group
Toggle Shavian
Shavia - an important matter for your consideration.
It's fairly obvious that Lionel Ghoti, the moderator of this Shavian
YahooGroup (formerly eGroup) isn't coming back. He hasn't been seen since
January 2000 and I've not been able to get in touch since then.
I was going to ask Yahoo Groups if I could take over the moderatorship for
the purposes of keeping links up-to-date, deleting spam links, managing
files in the vault, etc. The moderator doesn't have the power to control
postings, as they are sent immediately to all members via email. I'm not
sure if they'd at first like the idea of reallocation of moderatorship
without a specific request by the original moderator, but I'm sure they'll
easily see that the listed moderator hasn't been around for donkey's years.
It's worth a try anyway.
Would you agree with this? I'm not going to (try to) do it if you don't want
me to. But I think it's safe to say I'm not going to do a runner tomorrow so
no more missing moderators!
Regards,
Hugh B
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From: Star Raven
Date: 2003-07-19 03:50:23 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] My long promised qwerty setup
Toggle Shavian
I thought ppl had problems with err because some pronounce it the same
as air, so I used ergot, as in the rye rot.
--Star
--- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@...> wrote:
> One thing before I analyse it 'properly'...
>
> What in heaven's name is an "ergot"??? :-P
>
> Hugh B
>
=====
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From: Star Raven
Date: 2003-07-19 03:52:23 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Moderatorship of this group
Toggle Shavian
Vote Hugh for moderator! He doesn't really need your support, but vote
for him anyway! :)
--Star
=====
Hand Jive (do each movement twice): Pat Legs, Clap hands, Wave right over left, Wave left over right, Right fist over left, Left Fist over right, Hitchhiker right, Hitchhiker left.
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From: Ethan
Date: 2003-07-19 05:47:30 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Fixed width fonts? [was: aesthetics]
Toggle Shavian
C. Paige Gabhart wrote:
> By the way, I just noticed that I am using a variable width font in this
> post. Is there a variable width Shavian font? And if not, would it not
> make sense to introduce one. I recently noticed that Shavian in a
> fixed width font looks as clunky as TO does in a fixed width font. I
> believe even Gutenberg allowed less space for an "i" than he did for an
> "m."
I was not aware of any *fixed width* Shavian fonts, except for the one I
have experimented with a bit myself, that one not being in a finished
enough state for me to release it to the public. All the Shavian fonts
I know of, including my own (ESL Gothic) are all variable width. This
includes Ghoti, Androcles, Europa, Lionspaw, Shaw Britannia, Shaw Roman
No. 1, Shaw Sans Nos. 1, 2, and 3, Shawcurly, and Shawscript. These are
all the Shavian fonts I have installed on my system, and they are all
variable width. If you know of any fixed width Shavian fonts, please
let me know, as I would be interested in them!
--
Ethan
P.S. You can download my font at:
http://www.30below.com/~ethanl/fonts.html
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From: Ethan
Date: 2003-07-19 06:06:57 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Moderatorship of this group
Toggle Shavian
Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
> Shavia - an important matter for your consideration.
>
> It's fairly obvious that Lionel Ghoti, the moderator of this Shavian
> YahooGroup (formerly eGroup) isn't coming back. He hasn't been seen since
> January 2000 and I've not been able to get in touch since then.
>
> I was going to ask Yahoo Groups if I could take over the moderatorship for
> the purposes of keeping links up-to-date, deleting spam links, managing
> files in the vault, etc. The moderator doesn't have the power to control
> postings, as they are sent immediately to all members via email. I'm not
> sure if they'd at first like the idea of reallocation of moderatorship
> without a specific request by the original moderator, but I'm sure they'll
> easily see that the listed moderator hasn't been around for donkey's years.
> It's worth a try anyway.
>
> Would you agree with this? I'm not going to (try to) do it if you don't want
> me to. But I think it's safe to say I'm not going to do a runner tomorrow so
> no more missing moderators!
>
> Regards,
> Hugh B
Hugh, you seem to be a pretty level-headed kind of guy, you're always
around, and I think you'd make a good moderator/caretaker for the group.
You have my support!
--
Ethan
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From: Philip Newton
Date: 2003-07-19 06:36:02 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] My long promised qwerty setup
Toggle Shavian
On 18 Jul 2003 at 18:55, Star Raven wrote:
> Letter Q W E R T Y U I O P
> Normal (.) kick ha peep tot lol ch fee sh
> Shift gag ng bib deed roar j vow zh
>
> A S D F G H J K L
> out wool on if ash ado egg ah ian
> oi ooze oh eat ice up age awe
>
> Z X C V B N M
> are air array yea they whip so
> or ergot ear yew thigh woe zoo
You seem to have put Tall letters on unshifted positions and Deep
letters on shifted positions, fairly consistently, with a few
exceptions. I'd suggest you change those for better consistency:
* swap "ha-ha" and "hung" (there's been discussion about whether this
was a mistake or not several times, but that's the way we have the
alphabet, so I suggest the Tall letter hung be unshifted)
* swap "thigh" and "they" - "thigh" is the Tall letter so should be
unshifted
* "yea" should have "woe" as a shifted equivalent ("yew" could go with
"Ian", for example)
* What's "whip"? (Presumably, this represents the [hw] sound some
dialects have... what shape does its letter have for you? It's not part
of standard Shavian.)
* Where's the namer dot? [Ah, hang on. It's on unshifted Q, right?
Never mind then.]
* Where are "mime" (unshifted) and "nun" (shifted)?
Otherwise, I can't really comment on the arrangement. It's obviously
not as mnemonic as the arrangment introduced by Ross DeMeyere in his
fonts, but I suppose something one could get used to. The "simple"
vowels seem to be fairly consistently in the middle row, the stops,
fricatives, and affricates in the top row, and the compound vowels in
the bottom row.
I suppose you've made some analysis of the relative frequency of sounds
to assign more common sounds to keys that are closer to the centre of
the keyboard? (I see that "ado" is near the middle, for example, which
makes sense to me, and "out/oil" and "Ian" are out at the edge, which
is also what I would have expected.)
I see P is still free, but putting "mime/nun" on that key is probably
not a good idea; intuitively I would assume those are both fairly
frequent sounds, especially N (for example, one common frequency chart
for TO letters begins E T A O I N S H R D L U; N is the second
consonant in there, so it will probably be near the beginning in a
Shavian frequency chart, too).
Perhaps yours could be a kind of "Shavian Dvorak" keyboard :) Did you
look at the Dvorak arrangement when deciding on this layout?
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
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