Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Your Google search just proves that inconsistent spelling is a
serious problem,
with no T.O. based solutions.
Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., Scott Stephens <swstephe@y...> wrote:
> I double-checked several dictionaries and online
> discussions about the spelling problems. I had
> understood that the accepted spellings are "résumé",
> "resumé", and "resume". I wrong with the second one.
> But what do dictionaries know? I thought I would
> consult the expert, "google":
>
> resume - 9,140,000 hits
> résumé - 1,760,000 hits
> resumé - 293,000 hits
> résume - 194,000 hits
> resumè - 3,370 hits
> rèsumè - 3,360 hits
> rèsume - 702 hits
>
> But in France, they call it a "curriculum vitae"
> anyway. Other potential research projects: "façade"
> and "naïve" or "naíve".
>
> --- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > > and are routinely removed. Compare "résumé",
> > > "résume", and "resume". All 3 are considered
> > correct,
> >
> > I know I got a D in french, but shouldn't the first
> > accented e in the
> > first word be and accent grave, and the accent in
> > the second word be
> > over the final e? I could be wrong, but it's a minor
> > thing, so... carry
> > on
> >
> > Your Spelling Gremlin
> > --Star
> >
> > PS, in shaw, there wouldn't be a spelling demon...
> > :)
> >
> > =====
> > Hand Jive (do each movement twice): Pat Legs, Clap
> > hands, Wave right over left, Wave left over right,
> > Right fist over left, Left Fist over right,
> > Hitchhiker right, Hitchhiker left.
> >
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Hi Philip
I would have to agree with Scott's revised opinion below in this
matter. The Shavian Alphabet has been toughtfully optimized for the
English set of Phonemes. You have seen how much effort it has taken
to deliniate a concise set of letters that incorporate all the
acceptable English sounds for different accents.
To open it up to other sounds not found in English would be
ludicrous.

Anyway the I.P.A. is already available to spell foreign words. Why
re-invent the wheel?

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., Scott Stephens <swstephe@y...> wrote:

> I think that even if Shavian were adopted throughout the
> English world, the roman alphabet, (and foreign
> accents), would have to co-exist. Acronyms would
> remain in Roman letters, (UN, USA, UK, NATO, ISO,
> ASCII, HTML). Only English spelled-out words would be
> translated into Shavian, along with anglicized loan
> words: "rodeo", "bazaar", "cinema", but words that are
> truely foreign, (but in a Roman alphabet), have to be
> written in roman font. That means a Shavian world
> would have to be able to read both Shavian and Roman
> at first, either until (1) all other important Roman
> writing systems are abandoned in favor of Shavian, (2)
> English is considered too difficult of a language to
> learn because of it's weird Shavian writing system, or
> (3) an international language is adopted which uses
> Shavian.



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paul vandenbrink wrote:
> To open it up to other sounds not found in English would be
> ludicrous.

I agree.

I still think that if Shavian is used, it should also be used for foreign
words. The price is that foreign words cannot be represented as faithfully
as in the more "hieroglyphic-style" Latin alphabet (by which I mean that,
for example, one letter such as "j" can have many different readings
depending on context such as which language a word was borrowed from).

Foreign words will be put into the mould of Shavian spellings, similar to
the way that foreign loans are generally changed in the mouths of native
English speakers, anyway. This also matches with what is already done for
foreign alphabets.

> Anyway the I.P.A. is already available to spell foreign words. Why
> re-invent the wheel?

But who uses the IPA to spell foreign words? It seems, to me, to be confined
to linguistics.

I certainly wouldn't expect a newspaper such as, say, _USA Today_ to use IPA
to represent the names of cities or people in other countries. Instead, they
use Latin letters, often with a transcription that is more or less
"English", rather than a scholarly transliteration that captures the source
spelling unambiguously.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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Hi Scott
I think the pronunciation differences between the various accents
are relatively minor and surprizingly consistent. I beleive it is
not a serious impediment to the world wide use of the Shavian
Alphabet. Variations due to a different accent mainly change the
vowel in a consistent way. The Consonantal portion of the word
generally remains the same even when the word is pronounced with a
different accent.

Regards, Paul V.

P>S> I think that we have to accept the pronunciation changes over
time and can not be nailed dowwn to one standard. Look at the
variation in the Romance Languages from the original Latin.
Still a consistently used phonetic Alphaabet would to tend to retard
changes in pronunciation and thus make these variations even less
of a problem.

P>P>S> It would be helpful if we realized that these variant
pronunciations (accents) do exist and provide Teaching guides that
point out the correct subset of Shaw letters to use with a
particular English Accent. At least for the large Accent groups.
(i.e. Northern British English, Scottish English, Mid-western
American Engish, Southern British English, Southern Aamerican
English, South African, Australian, R.P., etc)


--- In shavian@..., Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Monday, Jul 21, 2003, at 15:43 US/Eastern, Scott Stephens wrote:
>
> > So, my point is that Shavian has to be standardized
> > and globalized and that means that the English
> > language itself has to be standardized and globalized,
> > or else you should pick your favorite international
> > language and "Shavianize" it. Otherwise, it is just a
> > writing system you can use personally to record your
> > own notes and share among other users in your group.
> >
> I think the major problem with Shavian is the fact that
people
> pronounce the same English word differently. This causes the
spelling
> in Shavian to be different. I would suggest we should standardize
on
> spelling of Shavian words. However, this does not mean we need to
> standardize on the English language. The use of the word rubber
in
> England and the United States can be different. The use of
adjustable
> spanner and monkey wrench can still exist in Shavian. People may
be
> able to easily identify that the speaker speaks British English
versus
> American English because of word choice, or grammatical
construction.
> However, I suggest the spelling should be the same in Shavian.
This
> means colour and color would not exist. The major problem with
this
> suggestion is the fact that the Brits want to spell a word one
way, the
> Americans another, the South Africans another, etc.
>
> As you can tell I am slightly disenchanted because I have
not updated
> my documents (a) to the new Unicode code points for Shavian, and
(2)
> with more content.
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86


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Hi Philip

English absorbs numerous foreign words, and generally after time the
pronunciation becomes Anglo-sized. As you say, No Problem. For the
use of Shavian spelling.
As for I.P.A. I see it used in dictionaries and other places where
you look to find an exact pronunciation.

As the only comprahensive tool around it gets a fair amount of use.
Ask anyone. Or even the modern Delphic Oracle Google.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., "Newton, Philip"
<philip.newton@d...> wrote:
> I still think that if Shavian is used, it should also be used for
foreign
> words. The price is that foreign words cannot be represented as
faithfully
> as in the more "hieroglyphic-style" Latin alphabet (by which I
mean that,
> for example, one letter such as "j" can have many different
readings
> depending on context such as which language a word was borrowed
from).
>
> Foreign words will be put into the mould of Shavian spellings,
similar to
> the way that foreign loans are generally changed in the mouths of
native
> English speakers, anyway. This also matches with what is already
done for
> foreign alphabets.
>
> > Anyway the I.P.A. is already available to spell foreign words.
Why
> > re-invent the wheel?
>
> But who uses the IPA to spell foreign words? It seems, to me, to
be confined
> to linguistics.
>
> I certainly wouldn't expect a newspaper such as, say, _USA Today_
to use IPA
> to represent the names of cities or people in other countries.
Instead, they
> use Latin letters, often with a transcription that is more or less
> "English", rather than a scholarly transliteration that captures
the source
> spelling unambiguously.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
> All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


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Hi Folks,

For a while I was a supporter of a global pronoucation of Shavian English. However, as my knowledge on how Shavian works increased. I concluded that it has Dialect and Accent allowance. This is so because of the relationships between the letters. The letters in Shavian have obvious and subtle relations. (1) The Major Consonants have ascenders and desenders. (i.e. t, d, p, b, k, g, f, v, th, dh, s, z, ch, sh, j, zh) (2) Semi-vowels usually the same as above (i.e. y, w, h) (3) The soft consonants are reversed in Shavian script (i.e. r, l, m, n) and (4) the vowels vary due to stress on the syllable depend on if the vowel is long or short.
So just by knowing the general shapes of Shavian, one can tell what word it might be.
And besides I think it's fun having a phonetic writing system. As opposed to a writing system in which the spelling of the word is not how you pronouce it, anyway.

best regards,

Carl

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--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> Just had a thought... how about Shavian hangman?
>
> Really easy to make. Lots of letters to choose from so hopefully
more
> difficult! It would let people get to grips with spelling
phonemically.

I was thinking of trying something like that myself, but I've also
been thinking of writing an Amiga version of Hangman to help people
learn Klingon (yes, really) for some time, too, and nothing ever
came of that, so it would probably be better off if someone else
went for it. :-) One thing I might suggest, something that I was
planning on incorporating into the original Klingon version, would
be to have 2 sides to it, one in "standard" and one in Shavian. That
way, people could compare them directly side by side as they're
attempting to solve it. Perhaps alternatively, once it's solved in
Shavian, the original version could be written directly underneath
it as a "translation", which would help to show just how much more
efficient Shavian really is. L8r.



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Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /linguistik pEs
Uploaded by : kfs111 <kfs111@...>
Description : 1 world languagj

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/linguistik%20pEs

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

kfs111 <kfs111@...>






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Carl,

Why should Shavian have any more dialect and accent allowances than
a transcription in IPA?

The IPA is usually used for a narrow transcription - one that
captures dialects.

Shavian is usually used for a broad transcription - one that tends
to overlook and ignore subtle differences in accent.

Are you saying anything more than this? If so, please elaborate.

Phonemic writing systems are fun but there are many such symbol
systems. One of my favorits is ENgliS which retains the Roman
letter shapes.

Da IPA iz UzUaly Uzd for a nerO trqnskripSan - wun Dat tendz tw
Ovarlvk and ignor sutl difarensaz in aksent.

Steve


--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:

I was a supporter of a global pronoucation of Shavian English.
However, as my knowledge on how Shavian works increased. I
concluded that it has Dialect and Accent allowance.

This is so because of the relationships between the letters. The
letters in Shavian have obvious and subtle relations.

[.....]

I think it's fun having a phonetic writing system. As opposed to a
writing system in which the spelling of the word is not how you
pronouce it...


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Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /3 transcriptions
Uploaded by : stbett <stbett@...>
Description : Shavian, ENgliS, diacritics

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/3%20transcriptions

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Regards,

stbett <stbett@...>






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