Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

"t mF embErasment, F woz bOrn in bed wiH a lEdi."

---/wilson mFzner

"wen F woz bOrn, F woz sO surprFzd F kUdnt tYk fOr a jIr n a haf." ---/grEsi Alen

``````````````````````````````````````````````817 :) mnz




I.F.E. internashunal fonetik english

t = to e = the v = of n = and

A E I O U az in Age Eat ... yoU

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Hi, I am planning to set up a full Shavian keyboard with a blank
keyboard (or a cheap one) and keytop stickers. Does anyone have any
ideas about good places to get the keytop stickers from?
Or a cheap source of blank keyboards?

John Warner
--
John Warner

john.warner@...


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Hey!

What a great idea.

I think that what you need is these 'slip transfers'. It is a very
thin plastic sheet backed with card. You cut the shape you want and
use water to detach the front sheet from the back and slip it onto
where you want it to be. When the water dries the transfer it stuck
pretty fast.

I think you should be able to get blank A5 or A6 sheets which you can
use in your home printer. I don't know where you are so I can't realy
suggest anywhere.

I don't think you should use a blank keyboard (though its your
choice) but instead put the roman and shavian letters side be side.
That way you can use the keyboard at all times without havin to
unplug it when you want to use roman. If you make good one, be sure
to take a piccy an post it somewhere. Such a thing would be a sight
for sure!

I wish you all the best in makin one, as I know of nobody who has
done so, and you'll be puttin something new out there.

Thanks
Joseph

- In shavian@..., John Warner <john.warner@l...> wrote:
> Hi, I am planning to set up a full Shavian keyboard with a blank
> keyboard (or a cheap one) and keytop stickers. Does anyone have any
> ideas about good places to get the keytop stickers from?
> Or a cheap source of blank keyboards?
>
> John Warner
> --
> John Warner
>
> john.warner@l...


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``````````` desimal dEtlFn ```````````

2003 nOvember 5 - bEJiN - cFnIz mAn Openz Sop fOr left-hAnderz - in a komjMnist kuntri bIiN Overun bF kApitalizm, /mY bO mE bI H mOst enTMziAstik leftist v Hem Yl.

/mY, 56, An ontreprenUr in H nOrTIstern cFnIz siti v /dAliAn, hAz Opend wot H njMz EJensi bilz Az H kuntrIz furst Sop fOr left-hAnded pIpul.

"F Just wYnt t help H leftIz wiH HIz speSal dEli-jMs produkts, sO HE kAn lId An Izier n mOr konvInient lFf," /mY woz kwOted Az sEiN.

hI YlsO operEts a web sFt fOr H sEm purpos - wiT H slOgAn "left iz best." it "promOts understAndiN abQt problemz konserniN H left-hAnded," /zinhua sed.

/mY'z Sop fIcurz miriad AksesOrIz fOr left-hAnderz, from sizOrz t kAn Openerz. it's nO smYl afEr in a sosFeti wEr pIpul hM jMz Her left hAndz yr Yfen skOrnd.

"F'm delFted t sI HAt biznes pIpul yr beginiN t SO An interest in left-hAnded produkts," sed /ZAN heN, a /bEJiN left-hAnder.

/mY'z Onli apErent problem? hI kAn't trF Qt hiz produkts befOr hI selz Hem.

hI'z rFt-hAnded. p r zzz

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

2003 nOvember 6 - paris - dog SMts mAn -

a frenc hunter woz Sot bF hiz dog After hI left a lOded Sotgun in H bMt v hiz kyr wiT 2 dogz, n wun v H Animalz Aksidentali stepd on H triger, polIs sE.

H mAn, from H vilaJ v /espelet in H /bAsk rIJon, woz Admited t a hospital in H nIrbF tQn v /bEOn wiT ledSot inJurIz t H hip.

"Az hI woz drFviN aloN, wun v hiz dogz Aksidentali set Yf H gun," a polIs ofiSul sed.

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

2003 nOvember 5 - wYSington - internet tAks -

imAJin jM resIvd a tAks bil everi tF jM logd on t H internet t serc "gMgul" Or "Ask JIvz."

wurs, imAJin hAviN t pE a tAks everi tFm jM sent An I-mEl t a frend Or fAmili member. if H internet tAks mOratOriu iz alQd t ekspFr His monT.

rekognFziN H internet's suseptibiliti t burdensom tAks skImz, koNgres in 1998 pAsd H internet tAks frIdom Akt, wic plEsd a mOratOrium on H

abiliti v lOkul governments t tAks internet Akses n Az wel Az on-lFn purcAsez.

wiH H ekspirESon v H mOratOrium moni-hungri governorz n leJistlEtorz Yr lFniN up t tAp

H internet Az a nM sOrs v revenM t fund Her pet proJekts.

H internet tAks nondiskriminESon Akt (s.150), sponsord bF senator /JOrJ Alen, wUd mEk H mOratOrium permAnent.

if H mOratOrium iz alQd t lAps, Az senator /ron wFden hAz stEted, lOkul tAksez wil dubul-up H prFs v plEn Old internet Akses "fAster HAn a dog kAn Jump on a mIt wAgon."

````````````````````````````````````

2003 n\3 - wYSiNton - H sUprIm kOrt disapqnted nMz OrgAnizESonz bF refjMziN t klErifF frI-spIc protekSonz fOr Jurnalists sMd After HE kritisFz pIpul Or produkts.

```````````````````````````````````````````````````

2003 O\23

/bjMik 'mAsterbESon' kyr rInEmd.

H /bjMik lakros wil lYnc nekst jIr.

red-fEsd ofiSulz At Jeneral mOtOrz in /kAnada hAv ben fOrsd t TiNk v a nM nEm fOr Her lEtest model After diskoveriN it woz a tIn-EJ slAN word fOr mAsterbESon.

mOr rIsentli, /mitsUbISi hAd t cEnJ H nEm v its /paherO model in spAniS spIkiN kuntrIz, wEr H word iz a slAN term fOr "mAsturbEtor".

/tqOta'z /fiera prMvd kontroversial in /puertO rIkO, wEr fiera trAnslEts Az "ugli Old wUmAn."

n /fOrd didn't hAv J resepSon it ekspekted in /brazil wen Her /pintO kyr flopd. HE Hen diskoverd HAt in /brazilian pOrtjUgIs slAN, pintO mInz "smYl pInis".

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

wUmAn tM bizi fOr frI SopiN sprI

2003 nOvember 21 - madrid - it wUd bI a drIm kom trM fOr mAni: a prFz v 6,000 jUrOz (4,200 pQndz) t spend on a 3-Qr SopiN sprI.

but 1 spAniS wUmAn turnd dQn Just HAt, sEiN SI woz tM bizi.

H wUmAn hAd enterd a cEmber v komers kompetiSon t win H sprI, pyrt v a promOSon bAkd bF 600 Sops in H sQTIstern siti v /mursia.

but wen SI woz tOld SI hAd won, SI sed SI wUd hAv t TiNk abQt it n Hen fEld t SO up t klEm her prFz.

SI sed SI hAd 'bizines problemz' n woz "tM bizi t wEst H mOrniN", a spOksmAn fOr H OrgAnFzerz sed.

H moni went insted t H runer-up, 28-jIr-Old /piEdAd lOpez.



zzz.

llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll



I.F.E. internashunal fonetik english

t = to e = the v = of n = and

AEIOU az in Age Eat Ice Oak yoU

digrafs: ah au ch oo ou oi/oy sh th zh.

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I've snuck shavian into my novel, (don't ask, I just have) and I'm
curious as to whether any one has come up with a method for learning to
read it fluently besides simply struggling through?

I'm thinking of applying the "Why Johnny Can't Read" Principles to it,
and perhaps we should look into, as funny as this might sound,
transliterating Dr. Seuss books, such as the cat in the hat. Hey, it
beats dick and jane.

--Star, whose shavian handwriting sucks less than her TO handwriting.

=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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Well, I hope I didn't annoy or bore too many people with my
previous submission, tirade, or whatever it could be called.
As I mentioned James Murray and the OED, and what would
have been the language-pattern that Shaw would have been
familiar with (and employed in his own Anglo-Irish lilt), and
which Read should have used to constuct his alphabet had
he fully followed Shaw's instructions, perhaps it would be a
good idea to provide Murray's original pronunciation key-
words so that everyone could measure their own speech with
his comprehensive system. Unfortunately I know of no font
that would reproduce his notational system itself, which
involved Roman and Italic letters, subscripts and superscripts,
plus a few other subtleties, so I have had to capitalize the
vowel in question.

It may well be a natural tendency of us all, including linguists,
to assume their own particular speech to be the norm and that
of others to be somehow deviant, and speakers of such deviant
forms to be gracefully persuaded to mend their ways and adopt
correct pronunciation. Murray, as a Scot, was not so bold as to
believe the English-speaking world would readily convert to his
own Lowland Scots, charming as it may have been, and this
could have been the reason he took such pains to record the
sounds of English as spoken by a wider range of people than
the more restricted one of RP, as it would come to be called.

He divided vowels into three categories, ordinary, long, and
obscure, and listed them in rows that reflected the extension
of each sound into each category. Not every sound however
is represented in all categories, which explains the gaps in the
columns. The rows are in alphabetical order according to his
notation, and the enumeration is added to reduce confusion.
Today all the obscure vowels would be lumped together as
having the unstressed schwa, a symbol Murray used, but
only for vowels 10, 11, and 12.

a. ordinary
b. long
c. obscure

1a. French À lA mode
1b. Alms, bAr
1c. AmœbA
2a. AYE, IsAIah

3a. mAn
3c. Accept, maniAc
4a. pAss, chAnt

5a. lOUd, nOW

6a. cUt, sOn
6b. cUrl, fUr
6c. datUm
7a. yEt, tEn
7b. thEre, pEAr, pAre
7c. momEnt, sevEral
8a. survEY (sb), French attachÉ
8b. rEIn, rAIn, thEY
8c. separAte (adj.)
9a. French chEf
9b. French fAIre

10a. evEr, natIOn
10b. fIr, fErn, EArth
10c. addEd, Estate
11a. I, EYE, bInd

12a. French eau dE vie*

13a. sIt, mYstIc
13b. bIEr, clEAr, bEEr
13c. vanIty
14a. PsychE, rEact
14b. thIEf, sEE
14c. rEmain, bElieve
15a. achOr, mOrality
15b. bOAr, bOre, glOry
15c. theOry
16a. OIl, bOY

17a. herO, zOology
17b. sO, sOW, sOUl
17c. viOlet, parOdy
18a. whAt, wAtch
18b. wAlk, wArt
18c. AUthority
19a. gOt, sOft
19b. shOrt, thOrn
19c. cOnnect, amazOn
20a. German KÖln*
20b. French cŒUr*

21a. French pEU*
21b. German GÖthe, French jEÛne

22a. fUll, bOOk
22a. pOOr, mOOrish

23a. dUration
23b. pUre, lUre
23c. verdUre, measUre
24a. untO, frUgality
24b. tWO mOOns
24c. altOgether
25a. MatthEW, virtUE
25b. fEW, lUte
25c. circUlar
26a. German MÜller*

27a. French dUne*
27b. German grÜn*, French jUs*

Those words marked with an * are noted as occurring only
in foreign or in earlier English words (chiefly rounded front
vowels), with the implication that those without the asterisk
are to be considered as an accepted part of our language.

The publishers at Oxford Press apparently felt that Murray's
notational system was too elaborate, and in the second
edition of the OED published, oh, some 15 or 20 years ago,
replaced it with the more restricted system of the IPA,
confining its scope to that of Received Pronunciation, the
speech pattern that Shaw must have been deliberately
hoping to avoid when he specified "Northern English", the
speech of George V, to be the basis of his alphabet. Another
description of it is the speech of the theatre, with which
Shaw as a playwright would have been intimately familiar —
a speech-form that without sacrifice of clarity and dignity
would strive to reach as broad an audience as possible. I
believe you may hear this manner of speaking in the old pre-
war films with Charles Laughton and the young Laurence
Olivier, or for that matter, after the war as well.

Perhaps Read thought it too elaborate too, or too difficult to
put into a simple format. With the important exception of the
compound or r-vowels, a concession to the desire for a
broader speech-form (which incidentally eases the inclusion
of American English), Read, in shaping his alphabet, appears
to have preferred the simpler RP register of vowels. And not
only the vowels: both Shaw and George V, as I've heard on
old recorded speeches, pronounced their interrogatives what,
when, where, and why, with the unvoiced `w' of our Anglo-
Saxon forebears —hwæt and hwen! — an omission Read did
however remedy in his QuickScript.



regards,
dshep




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Do you think you could make a book like that?

It should have pictures also (assuming you're aiming it at children)
to help along with the text and to keep up flagging interest. If I
remember rightly the best way to teach the alphabet is to concentrate
on single syllable words with strong initial sounds and easy visual
representation.

Obviously this only works with children, and I don't know if there is
a good way of teaching adults. If you already know one alphabet then
you can apply the same principles to a new one, I think the
struggling is a symptom of shavian having few resources. If we were
able to immerse a learner for a whole day in shavian then the pick up
rate would be fantastic.

Has anybody taught a child, especially one previously without
letters, how to read shavian? It would be helpful when making a book
to know where children struggle with shavian and where they have ease.

Thanks
Joseph


--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> I've snuck shavian into my novel, (don't ask, I just have) and I'm
> curious as to whether any one has come up with a method for
learning to
> read it fluently besides simply struggling through?
>
> I'm thinking of applying the "Why Johnny Can't Read" Principles to
it,
> and perhaps we should look into, as funny as this might sound,
> transliterating Dr. Seuss books, such as the cat in the hat. Hey, it
> beats dick and jane.
>
> --Star, whose shavian handwriting sucks less than her TO
handwriting.
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
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Hi Star,

I learned Shavian, mostly like an adult who has studied phonetics would. Though I'm only 22, I am rather fluent with using shavian. (Though my spelling represents mostly the phonemes in triggered in my head when I read rather than how I actually pronounce it verbally.) [This is of course when I have no time to refer to a dictionary for proper pronouncation.] The source I learned Shavian from was www.omniglot.com <http://www.omniglot.com> . Though the learning curve took me six months with help from (of course) my Shavian Buds (Everybody in this discussion group's help.)

Well I just rambled for a whole paragraph. Let's see how to overcome the learning curve?

I guess start with the shavian letters that have a direct equivalent first. Then the ones we traditionally use digraphs for. And when you teach the vowels use examples to show the differences.

Hope this helps,

Carl

n trMT iz noliJ v TiNz Az HE R n Az HE wx n Az HE R t kum


Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

I've snuck shavian into my novel, (don't ask, I just have) and I'm
curious as to whether any one has come up with a method for learning to
read it fluently besides simply struggling through?

I'm thinking of applying the "Why Johnny Can't Read" Principles to it,
and perhaps we should look into, as funny as this might sound,
transliterating Dr. Seuss books, such as the cat in the hat. Hey, it
beats dick and jane.

--Star, whose shavian handwriting sucks less than her TO handwriting.

=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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12/01/03 3:36:44 PM, carl easton <shavintel16@...> wrote:

> I guess start with the shavian letters that have a direct equivalent first.
> Then the ones we traditionally use digraphs for. And when you teach the
> vowels use examples to show the differences.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Carl
>
> n trMT iz noliJ v TiNz Az HE R n Az HE wx n Az HE R t kum

I have an idea. Why not use Shavian in this group more often? If you use html,
you can designate Shavian fonts for your text, and it should show up for most
people who use html-capable email software, or the web interface, and who have
the common Shavian fonts installed, i.e. Ghoti, Lionspaw, Androcles, ...

I see a lot of dialog here, but it's almost all in Roman text. If everyone
would use even just a little bit of Shavian in their postings, it would help
others as well as themselves for learning Shavian.

I don't currently have an email program capable of composing in html, but I can
always attach a self-composed html message, and it should show up inline (in the
same page) with the email. I'll make this one a test, and attach this entire
message in Shavian.

Ethan
The chicken came first.

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I'd be willing to donate any of my many skills drawing, writing, to
help. Anyone else want to work on this?

--Star

--- Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@...> wrote:
> Do you think you could make a book like that?
>
> It should have pictures also (assuming you're aiming it at children)
> to help along with the text and to keep up flagging interest. If I
> remember rightly the best way to teach the alphabet is to concentrate
>
> on single syllable words with strong initial sounds and easy visual
> representation.
>
> Obviously this only works with children, and I don't know if there is
>
> a good way of teaching adults. If you already know one alphabet then
> you can apply the same principles to a new one, I think the
> struggling is a symptom of shavian having few resources. If we were
> able to immerse a learner for a whole day in shavian then the pick up
>
> rate would be fantastic.
>
> Has anybody taught a child, especially one previously without
> letters, how to read shavian? It would be helpful when making a book
> to know where children struggle with shavian and where they have
> ease.
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
>
> --- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
> > I've snuck shavian into my novel, (don't ask, I just have) and I'm
> > curious as to whether any one has come up with a method for
> learning to
> > read it fluently besides simply struggling through?
> >
> > I'm thinking of applying the "Why Johnny Can't Read" Principles to
> it,
> > and perhaps we should look into, as funny as this might sound,
> > transliterating Dr. Seuss books, such as the cat in the hat. Hey,
> it
> > beats dick and jane.
> >
> > --Star, whose shavian handwriting sucks less than her TO
> handwriting.
> >
> > =====
> > From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
> Hakuin
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> > http://companion.yahoo.com/
>
>


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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