Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

10/31/03 7:21:42 AM, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...> wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ethan" <ethanl@...>

>> My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my accent
>(northern
>> midwest US) are basically these:
>>
>> yEIOMxAeiUu
>
>I'm sure there is a stress difference in the northern midwest US dialect. Do
>you not say "perfect" (as in to perfect something) and "perfect" (as in
>without blemish) differently?
>
>Hugh B

Actually, I do. pxfikt, pxfekt

As far as stress differences, yes they exist. But the actual value of the
vowels doesn't change that much. While often an unstressed vowel may turn into
a schwa in normal speach, if you ask someone to say the word slow and distinct,
such as the way a teacher would correct the pronunciation of a student, you
won't hear any schwa. Also, while there may be a difference in stress on "x",
there is no conscious difference in the sound. Basically, the vowels above are
the phonemes we use, but I can still use the alternates (D,a) to indicate stress
differences, as I am aware of them.

Also regarding the w/wh difference, I don't use wh in my speech, but I'm
reconsidering! Thing is, there is a difference, and it does help with
understanding, but for some reason it has been disappearing. My philosophy has
always been that any function of language which is helpful should be maintained.
When I learned to talk, I must have learned my pronunciation primarily from my
mother, since my father and grandparents all say "wh" but I say "w". It's
strange how such changes can take place without anybody noticing!

Ethan
The chicken came first.



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10/31/03 1:45:50 PM, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...> wrote:

>Hi Hugh
>
>Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
>this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
>and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
>
>Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
>repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
>contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
>think?
>
>Thanks
>Joseph

For me, murmur is pronounced "mxmx", with the only difference being the stress
on the first syllable. The two "Errs" are the same sound, exactly.

Ethan
The chicken came first.



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Hi Philip,

Thank you, very much! For the font code.

best regards

Carl

Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:

On 30 Oct 2003 at 13:05, carl easton wrote:

> 1. If you send me the captial and lower-case roman letter to Shavian
> letters font code could I send you my pronouncation and not have
> look like illogical roman letters. thanks, Carl

Talls:
p - peep
t - tot
k - kick
f - fee
T - thigh
s - so
S - sure
c - church
j - yea
N - hung

Deeps:
b - bib
d - dead
g - gag
v - vow
H - they
z - zoo
Z - measure
J - judge
w - woe
h - ha-ha

Shorts (1):
l - loll
m - mime
i - if
e - egg
A - ash
a - ado
o - on
U - wool
Q - out
y - ah

Shorts (2):
r - roar
n - nun
I - eat
E - age
F - ice
u - up
O - oak
M - ooze
q - oil
Y - awe

Compounds:
R - are
P - or
X - air
x - err
D - array
C - ear
W - Ian
V - yew

This seems to me to be the de-facto standard assignment in the fonts I
have.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>



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Hi Paul and Hugh,

Sometimes now that I have learned to distinguish x/D and a/u by relying on the Dictionary to show were the Stressing is located.
I also noticed that Paul, that of course they seem stressed because when spelling them out vocally we isolate the different syllables. Thus stressing them.

Hope this helps,

Carl

paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

Hi Hugh

There is a difference in my pronunciation of the 2 forms of perfect,
but I don't notice it a stressed versus unstressed.
Instead the difference seems to be more just where the syllable
boundary is.
Specifically
Perfect
the verb (refine) would be spelled in Shaw , px-fekt or pD-fekt
and Perfect
the noun (unmarred) would be spelled, pxf-akt or pxf-ikt

As I have been saying all along, my Canadian accent group just
doesn't distinguish between the stressed er (Err/Urge) and
unstressed er (Array) sound. They all sound stressed to me.

Hope that doesn't stress you out, Hugh.

Fond regards, Paul V.

P.S. Confirmation anyone.



--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ethan" <ethanl@3...>
>
>
> > 10/29/03 11:01:02 AM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:
> >
> > >But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of
unknown
> > >vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle
that a
> > >non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
> > >eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the
beautiful
> > >Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
> > >particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel
deprived.
> > >Present company excepted.
> > >
> > >Regards, Paul V.
> >
> > My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my
accent
> (northern
> > midwest US) are basically these:
> >
> > yEIOMxAeiUu
>
> I'm sure there is a stress difference in the northern midwest US
dialect. Do
> you not say "perfect" (as in to perfect something) and "perfect"
(as in
> without blemish) differently?
>
> Hugh B



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Oh Im from Lincolnshire (if you ask where that is Ill throttle you!).

My accent would probably fall in the belt between Northern and
Midland.

I think I read somewhere (or at least someone claimed) that you spoke
in RP. True?

Thanks
Joseph

--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> Perhaps I've missed you saying it, if you did - where are you from
and what
> accent would you say you have?
>
> Hugh B
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> To: <shavian@...>
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 6:45 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
>
>
> > Hi Hugh
> >
> > Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> > this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> > and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
> >
> > Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> > repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> > contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> > think?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Joseph
> >
> > --- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> > > To: <shavian@...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> > > Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> > >
> > >
> > > > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take
them
> > on
> > > > board for certain. Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
> > This
> > > > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
> > webite
> > > > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
> > rung on
> > > > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
> > >
> > > I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
> > happened,
> > > although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind.
It
> > was going
> > > to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to
think
> > about
> > > it...
> > >
> > > The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
> > site - but
> > > they haven't really taken off.
> > >
> > > > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
> > (with
> > > > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
> > stressed
> > > > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
> > hold
> > > > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I
think a
> > word
> > > > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
> > >
> > > BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
> > Shavian.
> > >
> > > > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your
spellings
> > on
> > > > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > > > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit
or
> > type
> > > > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
> > >
> > > If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
> > Layout Editor
> > > from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred
layout
> > using
> > > Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial"
font
> > to do
> > > this).
> > >
> > > > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short
article
> > > > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also
have
> > > > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
> > what
> > > > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Joseph
> > >
> > > Hugh B
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >


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So you do have the stress on the first syllable? That means the
second syllable is unstressed?

Surely then the second vowel reduces to a schwa?

I wish I had a microphone then I would record myself and play it to
you, maybe it would shed some light. I can't figure it out.

Thanks
Joseph

--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> 10/31/03 1:45:50 PM, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
>
> >Hi Hugh
> >
> >Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> >this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> >and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
> >
> >Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> >repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> >contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> >think?
> >
> >Thanks
> >Joseph
>
> For me, murmur is pronounced "mxmx", with the only difference being
the stress
> on the first syllable. The two "Errs" are the same sound, exactly.
>
> Ethan
> The chicken came first.


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...to have a gander at the beginnings of my webpages at

stetsdigs.tripod.com

As I have said before there isn't much up (one page really), and
things will move slowly. I hope to at least put up another page over
the weekend, this one about Manchester buildings and architecture.
But we'll see!

I hope you'll at least enjoy seeing a whole site in shavian (bar the
ads which I have no control over). Some bits are in unicode, (get a
font now, I recommend CODE2001), others are in normal ghoti and
androcles.

If you have any problems at all just shout, and I'll sort it out.

Anyway,

Thanks
Joseph




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10/31/03 6:23:07 PM, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...> wrote:

>So you do have the stress on the first syllable? That means the
>second syllable is unstressed?
>
>Surely then the second vowel reduces to a schwa?
>
>I wish I had a microphone then I would record myself and play it to
>you, maybe it would shed some light. I can't figure it out.
>
>Thanks
>Joseph

<snip>

>> For me, murmur is pronounced "mxmx", with the only difference being
>the stress
>> on the first syllable. The two "Errs" are the same sound, exactly.

Well, I do have a microphone, and hopefully the attached file will clarify at
least my pronunciation.

Ethan
The chicken came first.

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I made the "Shaw Sans No. 2 with Arial" font. If there is a demand,
I would be happy to make Unicode versions of my other Shaw
fonts.

--Phillip Driscoll


----- Originala Mesagxo -----
De: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
Al: <shavian@...>
Sendita: Vendredon, 31an de oktobro 2003, 7:19 atm
Temo: Re: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...


> If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard Layout
Editor
> from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout using
> Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font to do
> this).



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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan" <ethanl@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...


> 10/31/03 1:45:50 PM, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...> wrote:
>
> >Hi Hugh
> >
> >Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> >this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> >and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
> >
> >Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> >repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> >contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> >think?
> >
> >Thanks
> >Joseph
>
> For me, murmur is pronounced "mxmx", with the only difference being the
stress
> on the first syllable. The two "Errs" are the same sound, exactly.
>
> Ethan
> The chicken came first.

But this is the point I've tried to make many times. There is no PHONETIC
difference. The difference is to all intents and purposes ONLY stress. So
even for you, the word is "mxmD", NOT "mxmx".

Hugh B


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