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<snip>

> But in getting rid of an inconsistency, you create a different
> version of the Shaw alphabet, that is difficult to read by someone
> unaware of your reasoning. You have a communication breakdown.
> I have suggested more than 10 recommended changes to the Shaw
> Alphabet to improve its consistency and I am aware of 5 others over
> the years. Take a look at my notes posted 6 months ago.
>
> Let's make a revised version, but leave the Original Shaw Alphabet
> alone. It is an essential starting point, as a Rosetta stone for
> newcumers to understand a Phonetic Alphabet. We could use IPA, but
> the original Shavian is better, even with its failings.
> Newcomers need to have a widespread, well published starting point.
> The Original Shaw Alphabet is referred to and even presented as an
> illustration in Linguistic texts, Encylopedias, even a few ahead of
> their time English Textbooks.
> We need to respect that.
> Doesn't mean we can't create an improved version geared toward
> American English Pronunciation.
> We have the means. Interested?

<snip>

Paul, these I believe are precicely the things we need to look at and
examine closely. An essay or at the least a paragraph on why each
change has been made to differ from the original would be a perfect
addition to a shaw textbook. Perhaps with all of us together, we can
come up with a "Council of Shavian" approved revised version including
changes that we can come to some agreement on. It would be this revised
version, this final version, if you will, that we would present in the
textbook.

I am willing, if desired or needed, to compile, write, and edit for a
book, and perhaps we can argue about something other than up/ado :) I
have a full featured word processor that is capable of displaying
multiple fonts and images.

I think this could work. I have great hope that perhaps we will be more
than a fringe group, or at the very least move in from the lunatic
fringe to simply the fringe, hee hee hee...

--Star

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----- Original Message -----
From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>

> The point I am trying to make is that the original form of the Shaw
> alphabet would have had /h/ among the voiceless consonants
> [p, t, k, f, th(in), s, sh(op), ch(op)] where it belongs, look at
> your Shaw Alphabet Reading Key, where these letters uniformly
> rise above the vowels, and /ng/, whether or not it should be
> paired with the aspirate, together with the voiced consonants
> (or other nasals), where it belongs, and that somehow, someway,
> the keywords hung and ha-ha were transposed in the (as I
> understand, rushed) preparation for publication of Androcles. This
> was a simple typographical error and as such is easily corrected;
> it is not a major alteration, it would only be a return to the
> "original" original form.
[snip]

If you are looking at making the alphabet "spotless" then definitely
consider swapping 'err' and 'air'. They were quite clearly reversed by
accident by the printers ('air' should be two 'egg's and a 'roll' [sounds
tasty] and 'err' should be two 'ado's and a 'roll'). Look at Quikscript and
you'll see Read corrected the mistake.

This is the one thing that bugs me. Getting newcomers to see the logic in
the letters is difficult when 'err' looks too dissimilar to 'array' for
people to see the relationship between them. A lot of people I'm sure are
still unaware of the direct relationship between 'array' and 'err' and
assume they are different sounds, or one is reserved for British dialects,
etc. 'Air' is also difficult to understand - it should be visible that it is
a variant of 'egg'+'roll', but with more length on the 'egg'.

Whatever. Is it worth making a revised version? I don't think so. But it's
still a niggle at the back of my mind.

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>

> The point I am trying to make is that the original form of the Shaw
> alphabet would have had /h/ among the voiceless consonants
> [p, t, k, f, th(in), s, sh(op), ch(op)] where it belongs, look at
> your Shaw Alphabet Reading Key, where these letters uniformly
> rise above the vowels, and /ng/, whether or not it should be
> paired with the aspirate, together with the voiced consonants
> (or other nasals), where it belongs, and that somehow, someway,
> the keywords hung and ha-ha were transposed in the (as I
> understand, rushed) preparation for publication of Androcles. This
> was a simple typographical error and as such is easily corrected;
> it is not a major alteration, it would only be a return to the
> "original" original form.
[snip]

If you are looking at making the alphabet "spotless" then definitely
consider swapping 'err' and 'air'. They were quite clearly reversed by
accident by the printers ('air' should be two 'egg's and a 'roll' [sounds
tasty] and 'err' should be two 'ado's and a 'roll'). Look at Quikscript and
you'll see Read corrected the mistake.

This is the one thing that bugs me. Getting newcomers to see the logic in
the letters is difficult when 'err' looks too dissimilar to 'array' for
people to see the relationship between them. A lot of people I'm sure are
still unaware of the direct relationship between 'array' and 'err' and
assume they are different sounds, or one is reserved for British dialects,
etc. 'Air' is also difficult to understand - it should be visible that it is
a variant of 'egg'+'roll', but with more length on the 'egg'.

Whatever. Is it worth making a revised version? I don't think so. But it's
still a niggle at the back of my mind.

Hugh B




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> Whatever. Is it worth making a revised version? I don't think so. But
> it's
> still a niggle at the back of my mind.

What's a niggle? Sorry, had to ask.

:)

I thought it was roar and lol.... roll is confusing to those who don't
know better. At any rate, *scribbles in her notebook* I'll add this to
the pile of essays/paragraphs/notes that I'm making.

--Star

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Standardizaton - Waiting in the wings ?


>
> > Whatever. Is it worth making a revised version? I don't think so. But
> > it's
> > still a niggle at the back of my mind.
>
> What's a niggle? Sorry, had to ask.


It sounds like a small rodent-like creature doesn't it...

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Standardizaton - Waiting in the wings ?


>
> > Whatever. Is it worth making a revised version? I don't think so. But
> > it's
> > still a niggle at the back of my mind.
>
> What's a niggle? Sorry, had to ask.


It sounds like a small rodent-like creature doesn't it...

Hugh B



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12/19/03 2:58:39 AM, "dshepx" <dshep@...> wrote:

>The point I am trying to make is that the original form of the Shaw
>alphabet would have had /h/ among the voiceless consonants
>[p, t, k, f, th(in), s, sh(op), ch(op)] where it belongs, look at
>your Shaw Alphabet Reading Key, where these letters uniformly
>rise above the vowels, and /ng/, whether or not it should be
>paired with the aspirate, together with the voiced consonants
>(or other nasals), where it belongs, and that somehow, someway,
>the keywords hung and ha-ha were transposed in the (as I
>understand, rushed) preparation for publication of Androcles. This
>was a simple typographical error and as such is easily corrected;
>it is not a major alteration, it would only be a return to the
>"original" original form.

I wouldn't be too quick to assume that it was a typo in the preparation of
Androcles. If you look at QuickScript (which you can see online at
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/quikscript.htm) you will see that, while the
"h" letter has been moved to above the line, the "ng" letter has remained
unchanged as a tall letter. I would assume that to be pretty good evidence that
Read thought having the Hung as it is was proper. Though for the life of me I
can't figure out why he would have done it that way!

Ethan






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So am I to assume that theatrics don't work anymore?

Damn it. Nevermind.

I am yet following this group, and see that some good ideas are being
exchanged. I like the idea of a 'handbook' for shavian. Of course we
should continue to press the fact that you can learn to read and
write it in only a few hours. But at least people who _must_ ask
questions, can find the answers quickly and easily.

Certainly more must be written in shavian for greater use and comfort
to be gained. Perhaps the best thing to be written is original work.
If something is only available in shavian then more people might
learn it.

I think often has it been raised that shavian is somehow 'british'
and needs to be 'americanized'. Both ideas are wrong. The first thing
to remember is that shavian is merely phonemic, and truly has no
claim on a phonetic basis. While there are small differences in
phonemes, which need to be handled sensistively, the majority of
vowel mergers and consonant replacements (like alveolar to glottal
stops) bear no relevance. Neither is shavian british nor unamerican,
it is simply english laid bare, that is why some people don't
understand (so used are they to not _seeing_ language).

On the thoughts of 'improving' shavian it needs note the saying: "A
bird ahand makes two abush".

Thanks
Joseph




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12/19/03 1:44:43 PM, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...> wrote:

>Certainly more must be written in shavian for greater use and comfort
>to be gained. Perhaps the best thing to be written is original work.
>If something is only available in shavian then more people might
>learn it.

I have written a fictional short story I could transliterate. I has only been
published in a Yahoo group (crows), and so it has little exposure. Should I
post it?

>
>I think often has it been raised that shavian is somehow 'british'
>and needs to be 'americanized'. Both ideas are wrong. The first thing
>to remember is that shavian is merely phonemic, and truly has no
>claim on a phonetic basis. While there are small differences in
>phonemes, which need to be handled sensistively, the majority of
>vowel mergers and consonant replacements (like alveolar to glottal
>stops) bear no relevance. Neither is shavian british nor unamerican,
>it is simply english laid bare, that is why some people don't
>understand (so used are they to not _seeing_ language).

I agree. I think Shavian was designed about the best you could ever expect for
ease of use by all English speakers, no matter what side of what pond they may
be from. Here in the US I use letters to represent sound which are phonetically
different from the sounds used for those same letters in England, yet the words
are spelled the same, and are mutually intelligible.

>
>On the thoughts of 'improving' shavian it needs note the saying: "A
>bird ahand makes two abush".
>
>Thanks
>Joseph

That is so true! That's what I like about the current standard - we have it
now, and it works very well. It's not perfect, but nothing ever is, everything
is always a compromise of some sort.

Ethan






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> I have written a fictional short story I could transliterate. I
has only been
> published in a Yahoo group (crows), and so it has little exposure.
Should I
> post it?
>


If you can find a place to put it up on the internet, then yes. Try
to code for as many available shavian fonts as possible (is there a
font-family shavian anywhere?), or even better convert it to unicode.

Be sure to tell us where it is.

Joseph




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