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Okay, has anybody heard of Wikipedia? It is a free, open-content
encyclopedia. People create, edit and maintain their own version in
their own language. No one person owns a Wikipedia, but rather it is
saved on a master server while over the years many different people
work on it.

There are currently many language versions available that use
Unicode, and more are on the way. Shavian has official Unicode points.

Anybody catch my drift? if it isn't too obvious.

We need to be able to get more on the net that uses shavian. The
problems in the past revolved around the amount of work needed to get
a site up and maintained. With Wikipedia we can keep going as a
group, and need not rely on one person doing all the fingerwork.

Perhaps you will consider this, it could be a good idea. I know that
Wikipedia already has page on shavian, made by the same person who
maintains the software. He is probably more than willing to give us a
shot at it.

Thanks
Joseph






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Hi Philip

I agree. I also feel that "ado" and "up" are very different sounds
and am glad that the Shavian Alphabet represents both sounds. I also
like the fact that you can see from the shape of the letter "up" that
it is derived from "ado". To me and my accent group, the difference
between the letters is a lot more than just stress. I use the "Ado"
to also represent syllabic consonants. (i.e. tEbal, blYsam, an, lisan)

I am not so sure about the difference between "array" and "err/urge".
But in other accent groups it is probably more important, so worth
accentuating what is a almost insignificant difference.
I only really use "Array" for when I need to construct another r-
sound vowel. (i.e. fFD, tFD, bMD, lED, nMD, QD, tQD, pQD)
For example I would write "ear" as "ID".

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. I would spell "perfect" the verb as "pxfekt"
and spell "perfect" the adjective as "pxfakt"
and spell "prefect" the noun as "prIfekt" :)

______________________attached_________________________________


--- In shavian@..., "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
wrote:
> On 26 Dec 2003 at 16:11, Ethan wrote:
>
> > Are there actually any letters in Shavian which do not represent
> > actual phonemes, but phonetic variation?
>
> Possibly the stressed/unstressed vowels and vowel combinations.
>
> For example, some consider "about" and "up" to be the same phoneme,
> since stress determines which vowel will occur in a given position;
> similarly for "array" and "err".
>
> On the other hand, this can be used in order to provide for stress
> marking in words (e.g. to differentiate between the noun and verb
uses
> of "perfect").
>
> I feel that "about" and "up" are different sounds (they're
> "psychological phonemes" for me, perhaps, to coin a phrase) so I'm
glad
> Shavian has both.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>




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Hi Bob
You can't have it both ways.
You can't have an Shaw Alphabet based on the Phonemic categories
derived from T.O. and a Shaw Alphabet which correct the 5 letter
limitation in T.O. on Vowel sounds.
I think you are looking for regularized English, with consistent
spelling using the existing Phonemes of English.
That is quite a bit less than the Shaw Alphabet.

I believe every couple of hundred years or so you should throw away
all the evolved/devolved inconsistencies and provide an Alphabet that
closely represents the sound of words, before people forget that
there is any correspondance whatsoever.
I think it is about time for the Shaw Alphabet.
Regards, Paul V.
_______________attached______________________

--- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
> Ethan incurred the wrath of Bob on Dec 26, by saying
>
> >12/26/03 3:40:32 PM, "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...> wrote:
> >
> >>On 26 Dec 2003 at 15:31, Ethan wrote:
> >>
> >>> 12/26/03 1:17:09 PM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >[a certain pair of sounds are] considered a single phoneme in
> >>> >T.O. because
>
I hesitate to accept a statement that looks like the
above. Put
bluntly, T.O. isn't bright enought to have studied
linguistics and know
what phonemes are :-). More technically, any writing
system should not
be relied upon to tell what the phonemes are;
only actual use and
analysis through such tools as minimal pairs can tell you, though
sometimes orthography can give you a hint.
>
> there are no minimal pairs where the difference between
>
Plenty enough evidence for separate phonemes.
And remember, if phonemes are
distinct in one accent group but not in another,
they still should be available
in the alphabet.
That's why I think there should be a "wh" letter in Shavian
(perhaps we could simply borrow the Quickscript letter?), even though
I don't
normally distinguish that phonemic difference.

Are there actually any letters in Shavian which do not represent
actual
phonemes, but phonetic variation?

IMO "ado" and "array" do not represent phonemes, but allophones of
different things. To seemingly contradict what I was saying earlier,
T.O. generally indicates the phonemic value of vowels in English
(take the "e" in "happen"; it would be awkward but not incorrect-
sounding to pronounce "happen" as hApen instead of hApan), but the
use of ado
indicates something... er... "extraphonemic".

This is an objection of mine with Shavian.
I think it's been said here before, but the use of ado masks the
original value in such a way that it can't be recovered.
I feel it causes as much information loss as
information gain, if not more.
>
> --
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz




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12/27/03 8:37:33 PM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

>For example I would write "ear" as "ID".

Why do you not use the letter "Ear"? "C"

>P.S. I would spell "perfect" the verb as "pxfekt"
> and spell "perfect" the adjective as "pxfakt"

I would have no trouble at all with "pxfakt", but if I came across "pxfekt", I
would probably assume it meant the same as "pxfakt", until I discovered it
didn't make sense that way, and have to go back and correct myself. Why not
spell it "pDfekt"? That way there's no chance of misunderstanding, since the
lack of stress is indicated.

Ethan






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Hi Ethan
In my accent group, there seems to be a difference
between how "Ear" is pronounced. This got me into trouble
when I first learn Shaw, because Ear sounds like 2 sounds
to me. There isn't the smooth glide from one sound to another that I
expect in a real Dipthong. "Ear" sounded like strong Long E followed
closely by a trailing off softer "er" sound.
I ALSO hear the strong EE sound in fear, dear, jeer, pier and tier.
Like the word poor which I pronounce "pMD", a heard 2 sounds.
Then I found some shorter "ir" sounds, that match up better
to a Shaw "C".
(i.e. here, hear, gear, spear, tears, beer, deer, peer, mirror)
So am I crazy or does anyone else hear the difference between
pier/peer and dear/deer. I suspect they should be lumped into the same
phoneme.

Excuse me, I can't hear the difference between "array" and "err/urge".
Currently, I use "D" Array, when the "er" sound ends a Dipthong and
"x" Err/Urge for everything else. I am considering other opinions,
but I don't hear the difference between "array" and "err/urge", so
that will just have to do for now.

You might want to look into SAMPA in Wikipedia. It has list of
all the basic English Sound, with RP compared to Basic American
English in one table.

Wikipedia should be updated with some samples and usage information.
The Shavian Entry is pretty much just the bare bones.

Regards, Paul V.



--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> 12/27/03 8:37:33 PM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> >For example I would write "ear" as "ID".
>
> Why do you not use the letter "Ear"? "C"
>
> >P.S. I would spell "perfect" the verb as "pxfekt"
> > and spell "perfect" the adjective as "pxfakt"
>
> I would have no trouble at all with "pxfakt", but if I came
across "pxfekt", I
> would probably assume it meant the same as "pxfakt", until I
discovered it
> didn't make sense that way, and have to go back and correct
myself. Why not
> spell it "pDfekt"? That way there's no chance of misunderstanding,
since the
> lack of stress is indicated.
>
> Ethan




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Excuse me. I forgot to give the address.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA_chart_for_English
Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Ethan
> In my accent group, there seems to be a difference
> between how "Ear" is pronounced. This got me into trouble
> when I first learn Shaw, because Ear sounds like 2 sounds
> to me. There isn't the smooth glide from one sound to another that
I
> expect in a real Dipthong. "Ear" sounded like strong Long E
followed
> closely by a trailing off softer "er" sound.
> I ALSO hear the strong EE sound in fear, dear, jeer, pier and tier.
> Like the word poor which I pronounce "pMD", a heard 2 sounds.
> Then I found some shorter "ir" sounds, that match up better
> to a Shaw "C".
> (i.e. here, hear, gear, spear, tears, beer, deer, peer, mirror)
> So am I crazy or does anyone else hear the difference between
> pier/peer and dear/deer. I suspect they should be lumped into the
same
> phoneme.
>
> Excuse me, I can't hear the difference between "array"
and "err/urge".
> Currently, I use "D" Array, when the "er" sound ends a Dipthong and
> "x" Err/Urge for everything else. I am considering other opinions,
> but I don't hear the difference between "array" and "err/urge", so
> that will just have to do for now.
>
> You might want to look into SAMPA in Wikipedia. It has list of
> all the basic English Sound, with RP compared to Basic American
> English in one table.
>
> Wikipedia should be updated with some samples and usage
information.
> The Shavian Entry is pretty much just the bare bones.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
>
>
> --- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> > 12/27/03 8:37:33 PM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> >
> > >For example I would write "ear" as "ID".
> >
> > Why do you not use the letter "Ear"? "C"
> >
> > >P.S. I would spell "perfect" the verb as "pxfekt"
> > > and spell "perfect" the adjective as "pxfakt"
> >
> > I would have no trouble at all with "pxfakt", but if I came
> across "pxfekt", I
> > would probably assume it meant the same as "pxfakt", until I
> discovered it
> > didn't make sense that way, and have to go back and correct
> myself. Why not
> > spell it "pDfekt"? That way there's no chance of
misunderstanding,
> since the
> > lack of stress is indicated.
> >
> > Ethan




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Hi Paul,

Please note that the quoting on this post got screwed up somehow; it
took me a while to figure out which parts were mine, which you were
responding to. I've edited it to make some sense again. Perhaps the
Yahoo Groups posting mechanism is not all it could be.

Back to the subject: I have a suspicion that you misunderstood the word
"indicates" when I said "T.O. generally indicates the phonemic value of
vowels in English". I only mean "indicates", or "suggests", not
"determines". The phonemic categories of a language are independent of
its preferred writing system. Nonetheless, T.O. is an attempt at a
system to indicate the phonology of the English language, and it is
usually correct, as long as you understand what system is being used in
a given case. So you can use it for hints on what the phoneme is in the
cases where actual pronunciation reduce a vowel to a shwa.

paul vandenbrink incurred the wrath of Bob on Dec 28, by saying

>Hi Bob
>You can't have it both ways.
>You can't have an Shaw Alphabet based on the Phonemic categories
>derived from T.O. and a Shaw Alphabet which correct the 5 letter
>limitation in T.O. on Vowel sounds.
>I think you are looking for regularized English, with consistent
>spelling using the existing Phonemes of English.
>That is quite a bit less than the Shaw Alphabet.
>
>I believe every couple of hundred years or so you should throw away
>all the evolved/devolved inconsistencies and provide an Alphabet that
>closely represents the sound of words, before people forget that
>there is any correspondance whatsoever.
>I think it is about time for the Shaw Alphabet.
>Regards, Paul V.
>_______________attached______________________
>
>--- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
[snip]
>>
>I hesitate to accept a statement that looks like the
>above. Put
>bluntly, T.O. isn't bright enought to have studied
>linguistics and know
>what phonemes are :-). More technically, any writing
>system should not
>be relied upon to tell what the phonemes are;
>only actual use and
>analysis through such tools as minimal pairs can tell you, though
>sometimes orthography can give you a hint.
[snip]
>
>IMO "ado" and "array" do not represent phonemes, but allophones of
>different things. To seemingly contradict what I was saying earlier,
>T.O. generally indicates the phonemic value of vowels in English
>(take the "e" in "happen"; it would be awkward but not incorrect-
>sounding to pronounce "happen" as hApen instead of hApan), but the
>use of ado
>indicates something... er... "extraphonemic".
>

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz




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Hi Bob
Forgive my bluntness in my last message. I didn't really see your
point of view, and flew off the handle.
I guess I would have preferred it, if you had said that T.O.
generally suggests the Phonemic value, and occassionally just hints
at what could be the actual pronunciation. Obviously, T.O. has some
rhyme or reason, (1 Billion People Served) but with all the rules and
exceptions to the rules it has become increasingly clumbersome.
And the new words added to English every year have even more
outrageous spellings with T.O.

To re-iterate my position.
I believe that English borrows new words from other languages and
invents even more, every year. A new English spelling is borrowed or
invented to create a new unique word even if there is already a
Phonetically/Phonemically accurate T.O. Spelling for the new word.
I think if we people to be able to write proper English with computer
assistence we need to clean up the mess or provide an Alternate way
to write English.
While I would prefer that every couple of hundred years we would
throw away all the evolved/devolved inconsistencies and provide an
System of spelling that closely represents the sound of words, before
people forget that there is any correspondance whatsoever.
We might eventually get some form of simplified spelling in the T.O.
but I don't want to put all our hopes of English Literacy on that
uncertain outcome.

We need an alternate solution waiting in the wings.
And I think the best Alternate Spelling system for English
is the Shaw Alphabet.
Rather then holding onto our T.O., and waiting for it's eventual face-
lift, it is time start practicing the Shaw Alphabet spelling and
making it easier for newcomers to learn the Shaw Alphabet.

Regards, Paul V.

________________________________attached_________________

--- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Please note that the quoting on this post got screwed up somehow; it
> took me a while to figure out which parts were mine, which you were
> responding to. I've edited it to make some sense again. Perhaps
the
> Yahoo Groups posting mechanism is not all it could be.
>
> Back to the subject: I have a suspicion that you misunderstood the
word
> "indicates" when I said "T.O. generally indicates the phonemic
value of
> vowels in English". I only mean "indicates", or "suggests", not
> "determines". The phonemic categories of a language are
independent of
> its preferred writing system. Nonetheless, T.O. is an attempt at a
> system to indicate the phonology of the English language, and it is
> usually correct, as long as you understand what system is being
used in
> a given case. So you can use it for hints on what the phoneme is
in the
> cases where actual pronunciation reduce a vowel to a shwa.
>
> paul vandenbrink incurred the wrath of Bob on Dec 28, by saying
>
> >Hi Bob
> >You can't have it both ways.
> >You can't have an Shaw Alphabet based on the Phonemic categories
> >derived from T.O. and a Shaw Alphabet which correct the 5 letter
> >limitation in T.O. on Vowel sounds.
> >I think you are looking for regularized English, with consistent
> >spelling using the existing Phonemes of English.
> >That is quite a bit less than the Shaw Alphabet.
> >
> >I believe every couple of hundred years or so you should throw away
> >all the evolved/devolved inconsistencies and provide an Alphabet
that
> >closely represents the sound of words, before people forget that
> >there is any correspondance whatsoever.
> >I think it is about time for the Shaw Alphabet.
> >Regards, Paul V.
> >_______________attached______________________
> >
> >--- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...>
wrote:
> [snip]
> >>
> >I hesitate to accept a statement that looks like the
> >above. Put
> >bluntly, T.O. isn't bright enought to have studied
> >linguistics and know
> >what phonemes are :-). More technically, any writing
> >system should not
> >be relied upon to tell what the phonemes are;
> >only actual use and
> >analysis through such tools as minimal pairs can tell you, though
> >sometimes orthography can give you a hint.
> [snip]
> >
> >IMO "ado" and "array" do not represent phonemes, but allophones of
> >different things. To seemingly contradict what I was saying
earlier,
> >T.O. generally indicates the phonemic value of vowels in English
> >(take the "e" in "happen"; it would be awkward but not incorrect-
> >sounding to pronounce "happen" as hApen instead of hApan), but the
> >use of ado
> >indicates something... er... "extraphonemic".
> >
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Bob Schmertz




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We have quite a few messages passed back and forth on this list, but most of
them are in the T.O. The reasons? They vary, but I suspect one of the primary
ones is the fact that the software doesn't support Shavian by default. If it
did, it would be easy to send Shavian back and forth and have other people able
to read it without difficulty.

Here's my question. What software are you using for your email to and from this
list? Do you use Outlook, Eudora, Mozilla or Netscape Mail, or some other
program? Do you read the list at the website? Do you have no direct control
over the software on the computer you use?

The reason I ask this is, I want to know how much work needs to be done to get
to the point where everyone can use Shavian over the Internet, and especially
through email. Knowing what software is in use would be a good place to start.
I might even be able to figure out some solutions, and others could work on this
problem as well.

Thank you!

Ethan






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On 30 Dec 2003 at 1:47, Ethan wrote:

> Here's my question. What software are you using for your email to
> and from this list? Do you use Outlook, Eudora, Mozilla or Netscape
> Mail, or some other program? Do you read the list at the website?
> Do you have no direct control over the software on the computer you
> use?

I use Pegasus Mail on Windows 98SE at home, and Outlook on Windows NT
4.0 at work.

Pegasus can display HTML, but not very well; if both text and HTML are
sent, I have configured it to display the text-only portion. It also
doesn't handle alternate character sets very well; for example, it
doesn't understand UTF-8. This means that I couldn't read messages
which were sent properly -- by sending plain text encoded using the
Unicode Shavian code points.

I can sometimes read Shavian if it is sent in HTML with one of the
Shavian fonts specified that uses ASCII (e.g. 'I' for eat and 'i' for
if), but sometimes not (I'm not sure on what that depends). However, I
can't compose HTML mail -- only "enriched text", which I'm not sure is
widely supported by anyone else. (That's not the same as what Microsoft
Outlook calls "rich text", I think.)

I do have control over what software I install at home, but I'm a bit
loath to changing over to a new program; partly because I'd have to get
used to it and partly because I have so many mails stored in this
program.

At work, I can read HTML emails and could probably write them as well.
However, I could only write Shavian using the traditional fonts with
ASCII code points, or using the CSUR code points; Windows NT doesn't
support surrogates, so I cannot access the now-official Unicode code
points for Shavian in Plane 1.

I do most of my reading of this list from home, though.

> The reason I ask this is, I want to know how much work needs to be
> done to get to the point where everyone can use Shavian over the
> Internet, and especially through email.

Some people say "Nothing lasts longer than a temporary solution".

I think the proper solution would be to be able to use the official
Shavian code points in plain text (since I don't particularly like the
use of HTML for email or Usenet).

This requires at least (a) fonts that have characters mapped in the
official Unicode Shavian code points, (b) software that can handle
Unicode Plane 1 code points (generally including the operating system--
which, in Windows, means 2000 or XP at this stage), and (c) an input
method to access those code points.

Windows 2000 and XP could use the character map application, I believe,
to access those code points in a font which has them mapped, but
clicking together a message letter by letter is not very user-friendly,
so one would have to make a keyboard mapping (or however it works) that
would enable one to access those code points by switching one's
keyboard into a new configuration (as is done for Greek or Cyrillic,
for example).

This might be done with Tavultesoft's Keyman, perhaps (
http://www.tavultesoft.com/ -- I can't reach it right now, though).
However, that program costs money if you want to develop a keyboard
with it (I think the part that lets you use keyboards developed by
other people is free for personal use, though).

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>




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