Shavian eGroup Archive Browser
From: Philip Newton
Date: 1999-11-26 13:27:32 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: My first public transliteration
Toggle Shavian
Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:
> Dear friends,
> That's the only way that I can read your Shavian e-mail
> as well. I have the same problem with Cyrillic, so it
> appears e-mail will not transmit in non-Latin scripts. Am I
> right? I've been told that I need a scanner for these
No; thanks to MIME (Multi-Purpose Internet Mail Extensions, or something
like that), this is no longer true. A mail program can transmit in the
headers what character set and encoding the content has. For example, there
can be a header like "Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"", which
indicates that the contents are plain text, and are to be interpreted in the
ISO-8859-1 (aka Latin-1) character set, which is commonly used e.g. in
Western Europe. Mail in Cyrillic usually has charset="koi8-r". However, it
is up to the sending e-mail program to put in the correct MIME header, and
up to the receiving e-mail program to interpret the header correctly and to
display the contents appropriately. Finally, this assumes you have correct
fonts.
Since Shavian does not have a charset registered with ISO (and it is
unlikely it ever will -- though there is a proposal to include it in
Unicode, in the CSUR (ConScript Unicode Registry)[1], which is an unofficial
assigner of parts of Unicode's Private Use space (E000-F8FF and
000F0000-0010FFFF) to constructed/artifical scripts), it is usually written
"masquerading" as English characters -- e.g. "Shavian" looks like "SEvWn".
This is not a charset "problem", but a font problem, and plain-text e-mail
doesn't carry font information.
To alleviate this, you need some form of "rich" text (which has markup
information in addition to the text), such as the "rich text" format
supported by Pegasus Mail; Microsoft's RTF (Rich Text Format); or HTML
(Hypertext Mark-up Language). HTML is the most wide-spread of these
alternatives; however, it, too, requires that both sender and receiver of
e-mail understand HTML. Mailers such as Outlook Express and Netscape
Messenger can send and receive e-mail in HTML, and will display characters
in the font specified inside the message, if that font exists on the
reader's computer. If your mail reader does not understand HTML, then what
happens depends on the message format. If it is only in HTML, you will most
likely see the "source code", with lots of HTML tags that look like <P><FONT
FACE="Lionspaw" SIZE=3> etc.; if it is in MIME multi-part/mixed format and
contains the same information in HTML and in plain text, you will probably
see the plain-text alternative; however, you will have lost the font
information and will see "SEvWn" instead of Shavian letters.
> scripts, that I should print the files out, scan them in as
> an image, transfer them to e-mail, and then they will
> transmit by e-mail. Oy vey!! Any other idea is most welcome.
Oy vey indeed! Sending images by mail can make messages very big, and many
people consider that unwelcome.
> I will not be able to afford a scanner until Christmas. And
> I'm sure that everyone of you knows how to do computer
> things better than I do. Thanks for comments! Dan
I believe you have an iMac. I know next to nothing about Macintoshes and
what mail programs are available, and whether e.g. they support HTML or not.
Hope someone else can help you further on this one.
Cheers,
Philip
[1] For more information on CSUR, see
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/csur/index.html in North America and
http://www.indigo.ie/egt/standards/csur/index.html in Europe, which should
have the same content (but apparently one site may lag behind the other in
updating sometimes). According to CSUR, Shavian was registered on 12 Feb
1997 and assigned the range E700-E72F. See
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/csur/shavian.html or
http://www.indigo.ie/egt/standards/csur/shavian.html for the mapping of
Unicode code points to Shavian letters. Note that, to my knowledge, no
Unicode-aware program implements this mapping yet -- especially since CSUR
is offical and AFAIK not related to the Unicode Consortium.
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From: A.M.Callaway
Date: 1999-11-26 14:08:09 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: My first public transliteration
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At 02:26 PM 11/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:
>> Dear friends,
>> That's the only way that I can read your Shavian e-mail
>> as well. I have the same problem with Cyrillic, so it
>> appears e-mail will not transmit in non-Latin scripts.
[snip]
>alternatives; however, it, too, requires that both sender and receiver of
>e-mail understand HTML. Mailers such as Outlook Express and Netscape
>Messenger can send and receive e-mail in HTML, and will display characters
>in the font specified inside the message, if that font exists on the
I use Eudora Pro. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I don't know what
determines when it shall work and when not. That's why I asked what font
was used. I thought I might be missing out on one!
[snippety-snip]
Cheers.
- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
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From: A.M.Callaway
Date: 1999-11-26 14:08:09 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: My first public transliteration
Toggle Shavian
At 02:26 PM 11/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:
>> Dear friends,
>> That's the only way that I can read your Shavian e-mail
>> as well. I have the same problem with Cyrillic, so it
>> appears e-mail will not transmit in non-Latin scripts.
[snip]
>alternatives; however, it, too, requires that both sender and receiver of
>e-mail understand HTML. Mailers such as Outlook Express and Netscape
>Messenger can send and receive e-mail in HTML, and will display characters
>in the font specified inside the message, if that font exists on the
I use Eudora Pro. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I don't know what
determines when it shall work and when not. That's why I asked what font
was used. I thought I might be missing out on one!
[snippety-snip]
Cheers.
- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
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From: Philip Newton
Date: 1999-11-26 14:35:26 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: My first public transliteration
Toggle Shavian
A.M.Callaway wrote:
> I use Eudora Pro. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I don't know what
> determines when it shall work and when not. That's why I
> asked what font was used. I thought I might be missing out on one!
For what it's worth, Lionspaw seems to be the most commonly used font in
this group. I also think it's one of the better-looking ones.
Cheers,
Philip
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From: Daniel G. Szczurek
Date: 1999-11-27 03:16:59 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: My first public transliteration
Toggle Shavian
Dear buddies, Thanks for the advice. I use Outlook Express, so I'll go to
work on this problem. I appreciate your help. (:-)= Dan
----------
>From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
>To: "'shavian@...'" <shavian@...>
>Subject: [shavian] Re: My first public transliteration
>Date: Fri, Nov 26, 1999, 6:37 AM
>
>A.M.Callaway wrote:
>> I use Eudora Pro. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I don't know what
>> determines when it shall work and when not. That's why I
>> asked what font was used. I thought I might be missing out on one!
>
>For what it's worth, Lionspaw seems to be the most commonly used font in
>this group. I also think it's one of the better-looking ones.
>
>Cheers,
>Philip
>
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From: Simon Barne
Date: 1999-11-27 05:17:08 #
Subject: [shavian] Liberty Basic
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For those of us too old, lazy or stupid to learn Visual Basic, there is a
really simple dialect of Basic that runs under Windows. It's called Liberty
Basic and it's shareware. You can edit and compile programs with the free
version, but if you want to send them to anybody else, you need to register
for $40.
Its homepage is: http://world.std.com/~carlg/basic.html
I learnt Basic many years ago and thought it was an obsolete skill, like
operating a ducking-stool. I have now written in no time a
vocabulary-testing program far superior (in my view) to those I have
downloaded from the Web.
You ask, "What's this got to do with Shavian?" I think Liberty Basic could
be used for numerous Shavian-related activities, similar to the great Ghoti
Fingers or the fabled Phonetic Translator. For example, this 4-line program
opens a window and lets you type into it in a Shavian font:
open "Shavian window" for text as #1
print #1, "!font Ghoti 18 24";
input sentence$
close #1
There is a Liberty Basic eGroup, like this one, at:
http://www.egroups.com/group/lbnews/
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From: Hal Fulton
Date: 1999-11-29 20:34:03 #
Subject: [shavian] Browsers and fonts and such
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Hello...
I confess I'm reading the Shavian posts as garbled English. This, of
course,
helps me to un-learn Shavian rather than re-learn it.
I read this egroup on the web (using Netscape), but on a UNIX platform
(specifically AIX). That means no Windows fonts.
Can anyone suggest a way out for me? Other than just using Windows?
Hal
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From: Philip Newton
Date: 1999-11-30 06:53:46 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Browsers and fonts and such
Toggle Shavian
Hal Fulton wrote:
> I read this egroup on the web (using Netscape), but on a UNIX platform
> (specifically AIX). That means no Windows fonts.
>
> Can anyone suggest a way out for me? Other than just using Windows?
I believe there are TrueType compatible font engines(?) for Unix, e.g. from
the FreeType project, and I believe they may be able to act as font server
for X applications. I also know that the freeware X Unicode editor "Yudit"
can display TrueType fonts if you have FreeType installed. Conceivably, you
could rig something up with those, but you'd probably have to compile your
own. I have next to no experience there, besides installing FreeType and
Yudit on Linux once.
The alternative (posting images) I find undesirable.
Cheers,
Philip
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From: Daniel G. Szczurek
Date: 1999-11-30 08:09:26 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Browsers and fonts and such
Toggle Shavian
Dear Hal, I, the computer illiterate, copy the garbled English text into a
file in my word processing program. Then I choose all the text for editing.
I change the font in the file to one of my Shavian fonts, and it does turn
out in Shavian. Someone sent me a more complicated way to do this, but,
until I've figured it out, that's what I'm doing. It works. That's all I
know. I usually print it out anyway, so that I have Shavian hard copy to
practice reading, especially when I have to wait somewhere. And it's part of
building up my Shavian library. (:-)= Dan
----------
>From: "Hal Fulton" <hal9000@...>
>To: shavian@eGroups.com
>Subject: [shavian] Browsers and fonts and such
>Date: Mon, Nov 29, 1999, 12:33 PM
>
>Hello...
>
>I confess I'm reading the Shavian posts as garbled English. This, of
>course,
>helps me to un-learn Shavian rather than re-learn it.
>
>I read this egroup on the web (using Netscape), but on a UNIX platform
>(specifically AIX). That means no Windows fonts.
>
>Can anyone suggest a way out for me? Other than just using Windows?
>
>Hal
>
>
>
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>
>
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From: Hal Fulton
Date: 1999-11-30 22:37:13 #
Subject: [shavian] Upcoming transliteration
Toggle Shavian
Hello,
I agree that posting images is undesirable. It wouldn't bother me,
as I usually read this from a high-speed connection, but others
read it other ways, even in email.
I'm about to post in HTML as an experiment (if not today then tomorrow).
Those of you with Shavian fonts installed should read it OK.
This is a short story of mine (very short) called "End Game." I've
transliterated it in the "interlinear" style, where each line is
followed
by the corresponding line in the traditional orthography. Later I'll
post
a "pure" version without the TO.
BTW, any corrections are welcome. I agonized over spelling in some
cases,
especially since the characters are British (though transplanted to
America).
Do I represent these Brits speaking with my American accent? Or do I
"transpose" into their dialect, realizing that it will only be an
American's
attempt at British dialect? In the end, I think I did some of both, but
I was
at least consistent within the story.
So if there are freaky spellings in it, many are just the way I "think"
is the right way to spell. But there are doubtless genuine typos and
brain-hiccups in it.
Cheers,
Hal
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