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tithhmi wrote:


> just like the Shavian alphabet indicates stress with the little green
> dots?
> ->what dots?
> my point exactly.

Look back through the archive about this one. Stress is only implied in
Shavian - but it is marked; this is why there is a difference between 'ado'
and 'up'. You can tell 98% of the time where stress ISN'T by the use of
'ado'. The remaining vowel sounds that aren't 'ado' (or 'eat' at ends of
most words) are going to have stress.

> I ask this question because I have a hope to, in years to come,
> establish a press that would print books entirely in shavian (and
> quikscript?), and I defintely need to see some standards develope (or
> develope them myself) before I can start work.

That would be good. I'd like to help you on that.

Let's keep USING the alphabet then, because as Paul V said, standards more
often DEVELOP than are imposed. Try out the forums at www.shavian.org (I'm
just trying to get back into them myself, and make them a little more
user-friendly, but right now they function which is good enough for jazz).

Hugh B



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...

> > The only thing I can sympathise with is people who can not easily
> > distinguish stress. This is a symptom of Webster's dictionary
which
> > gave a pronunciation guide which ignored stress. Stress is
natural
> in
> > english and Webster did a great disservice.
> >
>
> just like the Shavian alphabet indicates stress with the little
green
> dots?
> ->what dots?
> my point exactly.
>

Is your question as to how shavian represents the stress in english?

It does so not with any markers or dots, but merely by reflecting the
actual sound changes that take place within an unstressed syllable.
When a vowel is unstressed it 'reduces' to one of two sounds: either
the schwa sound or the short 'i'.

This is to what my comment was referring. Webster had published in
his dictionary a pronunciation guide that gave each syllable equal
weight. Children who were taught how to pronounce from this
dictionary learnt a 'levelled' version of english with little stress.
Even today in the USA many people yet speak with levelled stress, and
this is mainly down to Webster (it must be true coz Bragg said so).

Thanks
Joseph



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> Let's keep USING the alphabet then, because as Paul V said,
standards more
> often DEVELOP than are imposed. Try out the forums at
www.shavian.org (I'm
> just trying to get back into them myself, and make them a little
more
> user-friendly, but right now they function which is good enough for
jazz).

They don't seem to be functioning right now, the message:

Can't open file
(/your/path/to/hugh/ikonboard/Database/active_sessions/active_sessions
.db) for reading. Permission denied

Comes up.

> Hugh B

Joseph



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Joseph wrote:

> They don't seem to be functioning right now, the message:
>
> Can't open file
> (/your/path/to/hugh/ikonboard/Database/active_sessions/active_sessions
> .db) for reading. Permission denied
>
> Comes up.

Umm... weird. Doesn't happen from here.

Can anyone else test this please?

Hugh B


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Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
> Joseph wrote:
>
>
>>They don't seem to be functioning right now, the message:
>>
>>Can't open file
>>(/your/path/to/hugh/ikonboard/Database/active_sessions/active_sessions
>>.db) for reading. Permission denied
>>
>>Comes up.
>
>
> Umm... weird. Doesn't happen from here.
>
> Can anyone else test this please?
>
> Hugh B

Sure thing. Here's what I got:

***Begin Error Message***

Ikonboard CGI Error Ikonboard has exited with the following error:

Can't open file
(/your/path/to/hugh/ikonboard/Database/active_sessions/active_sessions.db)
for reading. Permission denied

This error was reported at: Sources/iDatabase/Driver/DBM.pm line 246.

Please note that your 'real' paths have been removed to protect your
information.

***End Error Message***

Hugh, try reloading the page. It may be you're getting a working page
out of your cache, rather than the current page, which appears to have a
problem.

--
·???????? - Ethan



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--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
[snip]
> It's not about limiting to one accent group - it's just picking a standard
> that represents the majority of speakers worldwide. The American Heritage
> dictionary is an American Dictionary, sure, but its pronunciation guide is
> by far the closest to British English speech of all of them.
[snip]

I just want to clarify something: I don't think it's about representing the majority or
anybody else. It's about choosing the accent that is most comprehensible. It doesn't
have to be anybody's accent, as long as the majority (or preferably everybody) can
understand it.
Widely understandable, not widely representative.

Regards,
Joe



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--- In shavian@..., "tithhmi" <tithhmi@y...> wrote:
[snip]
> or, we could follow the standard method of abbreviation in the ROman
> orthography, placing a period at the end of each symbol. By
> following this, we would have a standard symbol recognised by all
> English speakers, and we would not need any new symbols, and IO would
> strongly emphasize our lacking new symbols.
> -tithhmi
[snip]

Or, even better, instead of putting a period at the end of every symbol, we could just
use it as a separator between symbols. But I think that may not work as well when
handwritten. You have to be careful about dots, including periods. When they're
typed, they're little circles of different sizes (usually) precisely positioned every time.
But when they're handwritten, they tend to all be the same size (unless you take extra
care with the larger ones) and positioned somewhat irregularly. But maybe that's just
my bad handwriting.



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Ethan wrote:

> Sure thing. Here's what I got:
>
> ***Begin Error Message***
>
> Ikonboard CGI Error Ikonboard has exited with the following error:
>
> Can't open file
> (/your/path/to/hugh/ikonboard/Database/active_sessions/active_sessions.db)
> for reading. Permission denied
>
> This error was reported at: Sources/iDatabase/Driver/DBM.pm line 246.
>
> Please note that your 'real' paths have been removed to protect your
> information.
>
> ***End Error Message***
>
> Hugh, try reloading the page. It may be you're getting a working page
> out of your cache, rather than the current page, which appears to have a
> problem.

Just have. Deleted the cache and tried it too. Works absolutely fine from
here. Also, Paul V posted as recently as two days ago so it's obviously
working for him too.

Maybe it's because the forums don't like the browser or OS you're using? I
can't think why they wouldn't...

> ·???????? - Ethan

·???? ·?? - Hugh B (still can't see those letters)




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Hello all Shavianists,

shavian.org has now moved to a new server, kindly hosted by Scott
Harrison. Hopefully, things will Just Work; if not, please let me now
and I'll try to see what I can do.

If you need to get at the old server for some reason, you can use
http://old.shavian.org/ until that gets switched off.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>



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Joe wrote:

> I just want to clarify something: I don't think it's about representing
the majority or
> anybody else. It's about choosing the accent that is most comprehensible.
It doesn't
> have to be anybody's accent, as long as the majority (or preferably
everybody) can
> understand it.
> Widely understandable, not widely representative.

Well, in that case, there are many accents to choose from. We could choose
old-fashioned RP: "hev you gought a metch, cunstable?" Many Americans seem
to think that Brits still speak like that!! And indeed that's the accent a
lot of American students I've met here put on to impersonate Brits. But it's
antiquated, and besides, I've never heard it spoken WELL by any of those US
students...!

We could choose standard US TV English, a la "Friends", or any US programme
really. These programmes are shown in the UK more often than British-made
programmes these days, and nobody complains that they can't understand them.
But ask a Brit to speak like that - and they most often can't. It's only a
one way thing.

One way or another the choice is too great. Then we look at the remarkably
simple-to-access www.dictionary.com - this uses the AHD pronunciation guide
The pronunciation represented by the AHD could hardly be classed as
incomprehensible to either Americans or Brits - and don't forget, it's
phonemic, just like Shavian, so either party would never realise the other
party were pronouncing the same letter differently.

So *why not* the AHD? Is it just too similar to Shavian, too comprehensible,
too neutral and too easy to access?

Hugh B



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