Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
> Ethan wrote:
>
>
>>Sure thing. Here's what I got:
>>
>>***Begin Error Message***
>>
>>Ikonboard CGI Error Ikonboard has exited with the following error:
>>
>>Can't open file
>>(/your/path/to/hugh/ikonboard/Database/active_sessions/active_sessions.db)
>>for reading. Permission denied
>>
>>This error was reported at: Sources/iDatabase/Driver/DBM.pm line 246.
>>
>>Please note that your 'real' paths have been removed to protect your
>>information.
>>
>>***End Error Message***
>>
>>Hugh, try reloading the page. It may be you're getting a working page
>>out of your cache, rather than the current page, which appears to have a
>>problem.
>
>
> Just have. Deleted the cache and tried it too. Works absolutely fine from
> here. Also, Paul V posted as recently as two days ago so it's obviously
> working for him too.
>
> Maybe it's because the forums don't like the browser or OS you're using? I
> can't think why they wouldn't...
>
>
>>·???????? - Ethan
>
>
> ·???? ·?? - Hugh B (still can't see those letters)

And I can read your signature just fine!

Try this page: http://www.i18nguy.com/surrogates.html and see if you can
find anything helpful there for getting Windows to work right with
Shavian characters.

[Same thing repeated in Shavian - test material:]

?? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????????????? ???????? ??????!

?????? ?????? ??????: http://www.i18nguy.com/surrogates.html ?? ????
???? ?? ?????? ????????
???????????? ?????????????? ???? ???? ?????????? ·???????????? ?? ??????
?????? ?????? ·?????????? ??????????????.

--
·???????? - Ethan


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Hi Hugh & Joe

I guess I liked what Joe wrote, good point. That the standard Shavian
Alphabet spelling need not match up exactly with any existing English
accent. It just needs to consistent and comprehensible by all the
major English accents.
Actually, Hugh is saying the same thing by suggesting the use of the
AHD pronunciation scheme as a standard, because I rather doubt that
anyone speaks it, if it is in fact a neutral pronunciation.

So why not have a Shavian accent, a compromise between BBC and
CBC/ABC/NBC/CBS pronunciation.
To me this suggests that we should take the AHD, eliminate as much
complication as possible, derive a simplified pronunciation by
eliminating excess phonemes (Rarely used Phonemes).
I can think of 3 Phonemes right of the bat, that I could live without.
Perhaps they could be collapsed into other Phonemes.

And then we can provide a Shavian Dictionary. People need not be held
to the new standard, unless they wanted to universalize their work
for worldwide distribution. Then they could run their written stuff
through a Shavian spelling checker to convert it to the Shavian
standard pronunciation.
If the standard was significantly easier to learn, it might even
become popular with foreighn English language learners.

____________attached_________________________________________

--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> Joe wrote:

I just want to clarify something: I don't think it's about
representing the majority or anybody else. It's about choosing the
accent that is most comprehensible.

It doesn't have to be anybody's accent, as long as the majority (or
preferably everybody) can understand it.
Widely understandable, not widely representative.

>Hugh wrote:

One way or another the choice is too great.
So *why not* the AHD? Is it just too similar to Shavian, too
comprehensible, too phonemic,
too neutral and too easy to access?

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. So what do you think?




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I'm using Safari in Mac OS X, and they don't show up right here, either. B=

ut then
when I reply, they show up fine. It doesn't work right in IE, either. Whe=

n I set the
character set to Unicode, it shows the right number of characters, but they=

're just
boxes. I haven't tried Netscape, though. Anybody have any ideas?

Regards,
Joe
·ð`¡ð`´

--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> And I can read your signature just fine!
>
> Try this page: http://www.i18nguy.com/surrogates.html and see if you can =


> find anything helpful there for getting Windows to work right with
> Shavian characters.
>
> [Same thing repeated in Shavian - test material:]
>
> ð`¯ ð`² ð`'ð`©ð`¯ ð`®ð`°ð`› ð`˜ð`¹ ð`•ð`¦ð`œð`¯ð`©ð`—ð`¼=

ð`¡ð`³ð`•ð`` ð`"ð`²ð`¯!
>
> ð``ð`®ð`² ð`žð`¦ð`• ð`ð`±ð`¡: http://www.i18nguy.com/surrogates=

.html ð`¯ ð`•ð`°
> ð`¦ð`" ð`¿ ð`'ð`©ð`¯ ð`"ð`²ð`¯ð`›
> ð`¨ð`¯ð`°ð`"ð`¦ð`™ ð`£ð`§ð`¤ð`ð`"ð`©ð`¤ ð`žð`º ð`"ð`¹ ð=

`œð`§ð``ð`¦ð`™ ·ð`¢ð`¦ð`¯ð`›ð`´ð`Ÿ ð`` ð`¢ð`»ð`'
> ð`®ð`²ð`` ð`¢ð`¦ð`" ·ð`–ð`±ð`ð`¾ð`¯ ð`'ð`ºð`©ð`'ð``ð`¼=

ð`Ÿ.
>
> --
> ·ð`°ð`"ð`©ð`¯ - Ethan




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--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:

> Actually, Hugh is saying the same thing by suggesting the use of the
> AHD pronunciation scheme as a standard, because I rather doubt that
> anyone speaks it, if it is in fact a neutral pronunciation.

Exactly.


> So why not have a Shavian accent, a compromise between BBC and
> CBC/ABC/NBC/CBS pronunciation.
> To me this suggests that we should take the AHD, eliminate as much
> complication as possible, derive a simplified pronunciation by
> eliminating excess phonemes (Rarely used Phonemes).
> I can think of 3 Phonemes right of the bat, that I could live without.
> Perhaps they could be collapsed into other Phonemes.

I don't think we really need to merge phonemes. I think for it to be maximally
comprehensible, we need as many distinctions as we can get, and readers who don't
know the difference will just gloss over them. But what phonemes in particular are
you talking about?

> And then we can provide a Shavian Dictionary. People need not be held
> to the new standard, unless they wanted to universalize their work
> for worldwide distribution. Then they could run their written stuff
> through a Shavian spelling checker to convert it to the Shavian
> standard pronunciation.
> If the standard was significantly easier to learn, it might even
> become popular with foreighn English language learners.

You do have a good point there. A standard should ideally be easy to learn.




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Hey I'm new to Shavian and I have some questions.
What about words that sound the same but have different meanings?
Like meet and meat. How would you represent them?




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Is there any future to shavian? Is it becoming a dying writing system
or do you think it will be used in the future?



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On 12 Apr 2004 at 16:13, animal_liberation2004 wrote:

> Hey I'm new to Shavian and I have some questions.
> What about words that sound the same but have different meanings?
> Like meet and meat. How would you represent them?

The same way: mIt. Just like it treats pen "writing implement" and pen
"enclosure for keeping animals", which are spelled the same way in
Traditional Orthography already despite their different meanings.

If it sounds different, it'll be spelt differently; if it sounds the
same, it'll be spelled the same way.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>



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--- In shavian@..., "animal_liberation2004"
<animal_liberation2004@y...> wrote:
> Is there any future to shavian? Is it becoming a dying writing
system
> or do you think it will be used in the future?

What do you think?

You must have seen something in shavian that moved you enough to come
here and enquire about it. I think most people would be at least
interested in it, and some would even take it up - if they knew about
it.

There was alot more publicity when it was first published in the
early sixties, but unfortunately there were also great technical
problems that were considered insurmountable. Now, with great will,
many of these former problems have and will be overcome.

But not one us has been able to generate the sort of publicity needed
bring people to shavian, nor the 'easy access' gateway (that
beginners like you must surely desire) that brings shavian to people.

I dare say that you came upon shavian quite by accident and had to
collect information/fonts/texts from manifold and sundry locations.
For every one like you, there may be ten others who gave up looking.

Thanks
Joseph



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animal_liberation2004 wrote:


> Is there any future to shavian? Is it becoming a dying writing system
> or do you think it will be used in the future?

Hi there, good to see someone else has stumbled across this place.

Personally I don't think it's ever going to replace our current alphabet
completely. That doesn't mean it can't be used for anything though. People
will find their own uses for it. Hopefully it'll be used in futuristic
movies, etc, and that will raise awareness. Maybe even for education to some
extent.

It's not dying though - I'm sure there's more interest in it now than ever
before - interest can only grow from here on.

Hugh B



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--- In shavian@..., "animal_liberation2004"
<animal_liberation2004@y...> wrote:
> Is there any future to shavian? Is it becoming a dying writing system
> or do you think it will be used in the future?

There's definitely a future for Shavian. There's no way it could entirely r=

eplace Roman.
The Roman alphabet, like the others that have come before it, will live its=

mark on our
language. But Shavian is definitely not dying. It's only growing. I thin=

k it's just a
matter of time before it becomes known and used by most English-speakers, e=

ven if
it has to share a place with Roman.

We can help it by spreading the word. Tell people about. Most will probab=

ly be
interested in it, even if they don't really want to learn it. I found this=

group
completely by accident as I was looking for Shavian fonts, and I didn't eve=

n know
about Shavian until I stumbled onto it on www.omniglot.com. There are prob=

ably a
lot of other people who would be interested if they knew about it.

So, my answers to your questions may be a bit long-winded, but basically wh=

at I'm
saying is that it has whatever future we make for it. That in mind . . .

----Begin Shameless Plug----
You can spread the word about Shavian by wearing it on shirts and other app=

arel!
See http://www.cafeshops.com/shawstudio for details.
----End Shameless Plug----

Sorry, I couldn't help it. I promise I won't do that again.

Joe
·????



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