Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > To me this suggests that we should take the AHD, eliminate as
much
> > complication as possible, derive a simplified pronunciation by
> > eliminating excess phonemes (Rarely used Phonemes).
> > I can think of 3 Phonemes right of the bat, that I could live
without.
> > Perhaps they could be collapsed into other Phonemes.
>
> I don't think we really need to merge phonemes. I think for it to
be maximally
> comprehensible, we need as many distinctions as we can get, and
readers who don't
> know the difference will just gloss over them. But what phonemes
in particular are
> you talking about?




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Joe

Sorry, but the first time I sent you a response to your question it
dropped my answer.
So in response to your question:
>But what phonemes
> in particular are
> > you talking about?

I am just going to describe with what I would consider to be an ideal
set of Phonemes for English written in Shavian. I am using the ones
listed
in the A.H.D.L.E Dictionary Pronunciation Key as a starting point.
Hugh B. provided us with an on-line copy.

First. realize that wh and w in the AHD Dictionary are already
collapsed into the Shaw Letter Woe.
And there is no equivalent to the Shaw Letters Yew and Ian.
I would like to collapse the a with the umlat (father) and the soft o
(got) into the Shaw Letter Ahms.
I would like to also collapse the schwar (butter) and ur (term) into
the Shaw letter Array.
Finally, I would like to collapse the letter u and the letter schwa
into the Shaw letter Up.
I think the letter Ado should actally be reserved to indicate
consonants which are complete syllables in themselves.
For example, the l in girl and rattle, the m in bottom, and the n in
sudden and rotten.
This is because I believe every syllable should have a distinct vowel
letter when written, not to rely on an implicit or hidden vowel.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Realize this does make the Shaw letters On and Err extraneous.
Final result would be a more effective Shaw Alphabet of 44 letters.

___________________attached____________________________


--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> > --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > To me this suggests that we should take the AHD, eliminate as
> much
> > > complication as possible, derive a simplified pronunciation by
> > > eliminating excess phonemes (Rarely used Phonemes).
> > > I can think of 3 Phonemes right of the bat, that I could live
> without.
> > > Perhaps they could be collapsed into other Phonemes.
> >
> > I don't think we really need to merge phonemes. I think for it
to
> be maximally
> > comprehensible, we need as many distinctions as we can get, and
> readers who don't
> > know the difference will just gloss over them. But what phonemes
> in particular are
> > you talking about?



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Animal

Take a look around the Internet. You will see a lot of people have a
lot of reasons to provide a simplified spelling system for English.
The traditional Roman Alphabet is just not doing the job.
Illiteracy is growing rampant.

Look around the Internet again for a English Alphabet replacement.
The majority opinion of the Internet is that the best replacement
Alphabet for English, is the Shavian Alphabet.

Literacy is valuable.
English is one of the most useful languages to know.
The Shaw Alphabet is the best alphabet for writing English.

I am not a prophet, and i can't see the future, but this all seems to
add up to a continuing interest in the Shavian Alphabet.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Human need to be able to communincate. Reading and writing is
valuable.

________________attached___________________________
--- In shavian@..., "animal_liberation2004"
<animal_liberation2004@y...> wrote:
> Is there any future to shavian? Is it becoming a dying writing
system
> or do you think it will be used in the future?



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Goodness Gracious what a stupid question.

The Shaw Alphabet is useful to us right now as method of jotting down
notes, and recording strange words phonetically. I expect it's use to
grow as more people become aware of it, and simple instruction on how
to learn it becomes available.
Right now you need to a bit of linguist to puzzle it out.
But we all like it.
Disagreement? Anyone?
Regards, Paul V.


________attached_____________________________
--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., "animal_liberation2004"
> <animal_liberation2004@y...> wrote:
> > Is there any future to shavian? Is it becoming a dying writing
system
> > or do you think it will be used in the future?
>
> There's definitely a future for Shavian. There's no way it could
entirely r=
> eplace Roman.
> The Roman alphabet, like the others that have come before it, will
live its=
> mark on our
> language. But Shavian is definitely not dying. It's only
growing. I thin=
> k it's just a
> matter of time before it becomes known and used by most English-
speakers, e=
> ven if
> it has to share a place with Roman.
>
> We can help it by spreading the word. Tell people about. Most
will probab=
> ly be
> interested in it, even if they don't really want to learn it. I
found this=
> group
> completely by accident as I was looking for Shavian fonts, and I
didn't eve=
> n know
> about Shavian until I stumbled onto it on www.omniglot.com. There
are prob=
> ably a
> lot of other people who would be interested if they knew about it.
>
> So, my answers to your questions may be a bit long-winded, but
basically wh=
> at I'm
> saying is that it has whatever future we make for it. That in
mind . . .
>
> ----Begin Shameless Plug----
> You can spread the word about Shavian by wearing it on shirts and
other app=
> arel!
> See http://www.cafeshops.com/shawstudio for details.
> ----End Shameless Plug----
>
> Sorry, I couldn't help it. I promise I won't do that again.
>
> Joe
> ·????



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Bad Dead Horse! *whip whip whip* Bad! Bad Dead Horse!

--Star

> First. realize that wh and w in the AHD Dictionary are already
> collapsed into the Shaw Letter Woe.
> And there is no equivalent to the Shaw Letters Yew and Ian.
> I would like to collapse the a with the umlat (father) and the soft o
>
> (got) into the Shaw Letter Ahms.
> I would like to also collapse the schwar (butter) and ur (term) into
> the Shaw letter Array.
> Finally, I would like to collapse the letter u and the letter schwa
> into the Shaw letter Up.
> I think the letter Ado should actally be reserved to indicate
> consonants which are complete syllables in themselves.
> For example, the l in girl and rattle, the m in bottom, and the n in
> sudden and rotten.
> This is because I believe every syllable should have a distinct vowel
>
> letter when written, not to rely on an implicit or hidden vowel.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. Realize this does make the Shaw letters On and Err extraneous.
> Final result would be a more effective Shaw Alphabet of 44 letters.
>
> ___________________attached____________________________
>
>
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > --- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > To me this suggests that we should take the AHD, eliminate as
> > much
> > > > complication as possible, derive a simplified pronunciation by
> > > > eliminating excess phonemes (Rarely used Phonemes).
> > > > I can think of 3 Phonemes right of the bat, that I could live
> > without.
> > > > Perhaps they could be collapsed into other Phonemes.
> > >
> > > I don't think we really need to merge phonemes. I think for it
> to
> > be maximally
> > > comprehensible, we need as many distinctions as we can get, and
> > readers who don't
> > > know the difference will just gloss over them. But what phonemes
>
> > in particular are
> > > you talking about?
>
>


=====
Why is it always me and the burning death?




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Star
Excuse me.....

Joe did ask what sounds, I would collapse from the AHD Dictionary
Pronunciation Key into the Shaw Alphabet.
And I do have a slightly different critera than Hughs.
As a Canadian, this subset of 44 of the Shaw Letters plus the
composite letter Yew does the best job of unequivically writing my
English accent.
How many letters do you need to write your Virginian Accent?
Regards, Paul V.
________________________attached_______________________
--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> Bad Dead Horse! *whip whip whip* Bad! Bad Dead Horse!
>
> --Star
>
> > First. realize that wh and w in the AHD Dictionary are already
> > collapsed into the Shaw Letter Woe.
> > And there is no equivalent to the Shaw Letters Yew and Ian.
> > I would like to collapse the a with the umlat (father) and the
soft o
> >
> > (got) into the Shaw Letter Ahms.
> > I would like to also collapse the schwar (butter) and ur (term)
into
> > the Shaw letter Array.
> > Finally, I would like to collapse the letter u and the letter
schwa
> > into the Shaw letter Up.
> > I think the letter Ado should actally be reserved to indicate
> > consonants which are complete syllables in themselves.
> > For example, the l in girl and rattle, the m in bottom, and the n
in
> > sudden and rotten.
> > This is because I believe every syllable should have a distinct
vowel
> >
> > letter when written, not to rely on an implicit or hidden vowel.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > P.S. Realize this does make the Shaw letters On and Err
extraneous.
> > Final result would be a more effective Shaw Alphabet of 44
letters.
> >
> > ___________________attached____________________________
> >
> >
> > --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > --- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...>
wrote:
> > > > --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> > > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > > To me this suggests that we should take the AHD, eliminate
as
> > > much
> > > > > complication as possible, derive a simplified pronunciation
by
> > > > > eliminating excess phonemes (Rarely used Phonemes).
> > > > > I can think of 3 Phonemes right of the bat, that I could
live
> > > without.
> > > > > Perhaps they could be collapsed into other Phonemes.
> > > >
> > > > I don't think we really need to merge phonemes. I think for
it
> > to
> > > be maximally
> > > > comprehensible, we need as many distinctions as we can get,
and
> > > readers who don't
> > > > know the difference will just gloss over them. But what
phonemes
> >
> > > in particular are
> > > > you talking about?
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Why is it always me and the burning death?
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> Bad Dead Horse! *whip whip whip* Bad! Bad Dead Horse!
>
> --Star

As we say on this side of the wide blue:

He's dead but he won't lie down.


It does seem like we go in the circles of these arguments.

Joseph



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Star
> Excuse me.....
>
> Joe did ask what sounds, I would collapse from the AHD Dictionary
> Pronunciation Key into the Shaw Alphabet.
> And I do have a slightly different critera than Hughs.
> As a Canadian, this subset of 44 of the Shaw Letters plus the
> composite letter Yew does the best job of unequivically writing my
> English accent.
> How many letters do you need to write your Virginian Accent?
> Regards, Paul V.

May be we can have a competition to see how _few_ letters we can
write with? That would surely help us all...



Sorry for my tone, but I agree that we have been through this so many
times and the only way to write is with the greatest number of
distinctions. If you wish to drop a distinction then a good case
needs to be made for doing so.

Thanks
Joseph




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Paul and Animal and Folks,

Yep, Shavian is the best for English. And I believe it will only grow in interest (thus use) and just like Paul I'm not a Prophet either. I can see Shavian as being an important and coequal alphabet with Roman. And Folks I liked all your responses to this question of the future of Shavian. Anyways, keep up the effort of supporting Shavian (it deserves it!)

best of regards,

Carl

paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

Goodness Gracious what a stupid question.

The Shaw Alphabet is useful to us right now as method of jotting down
notes, and recording strange words phonetically. I expect it's use to
grow as more people become aware of it, and simple instruction on how
to learn it becomes available.
Right now you need to a bit of linguist to puzzle it out.
But we all like it.
Disagreement? Anyone?
Regards, Paul V.


________attached_____________________________
--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., "animal_liberation2004"
> <animal_liberation2004@y...> wrote:
> > Is there any future to shavian? Is it becoming a dying writing
system
> > or do you think it will be used in the future?
>
> There's definitely a future for Shavian. There's no way it could
entirely r=
> eplace Roman.
> The Roman alphabet, like the others that have come before it, will
live its=
> mark on our
> language. But Shavian is definitely not dying. It's only
growing. I thin=
> k it's just a
> matter of time before it becomes known and used by most English-
speakers, e=
> ven if
> it has to share a place with Roman.
>
> We can help it by spreading the word. Tell people about. Most
will probab=
> ly be
> interested in it, even if they don't really want to learn it. I
found this=
> group
> completely by accident as I was looking for Shavian fonts, and I
didn't eve=
> n know
> about Shavian until I stumbled onto it on www.omniglot.com. There
are prob=
> ably a
> lot of other people who would be interested if they knew about it.
>
> So, my answers to your questions may be a bit long-winded, but
basically wh=
> at I'm
> saying is that it has whatever future we make for it. That in
mind . . .
>
> ----Begin Shameless Plug----
> You can spread the word about Shavian by wearing it on shirts and
other app=
> arel!
> See http://www.cafeshops.com/shawstudio for details.
> ----End Shameless Plug----
>
> Sorry, I couldn't help it. I promise I won't do that again.
>
> Joe
> ·????



________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th <http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html>

________________________________

Yahoo! Groups Links


* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@... <mailto:shavian-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

j_brg wrote:
> May be we can have a competition to see how _few_ letters we can
> write with? That would surely help us all...
>
>
>
> Sorry for my tone, but I agree that we have been through this so many
> times and the only way to write is with the greatest number of
> distinctions. If you wish to drop a distinction then a good case
> needs to be made for doing so.
>
> Thanks
> Joseph

Personally, I agree that we need to use the greatest number of
distinctions. I've been through the stages - "What's this letter for?
Do I need to use that letter? I won't use that letter! Okay, I admit,
there is a reason, I'll use it!" And so I have moved from using a
subset to using every letter. It's not difficult, and it makes reading
easier for others.

As for the dead-horse-whipping going on all the time, remember, there
are new people coming up all the time, and they have perhaps never heard
all the arguments before, so these repeated discussions do some good,
believe it or not! I was new here not that long ago, and the repeated
discussion helped me understand things better. So I for one will not
discourage discussion, even if it's been discussed before. Not
everybody has the time to search the archives.
--
·???????? - Ethan


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/