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Joseph, your tone is fine, Paul's is a little sharp, but...

The thing is making subsets ahead of time is not allowing for the
natural evolution of the writing system. I know that I have used all of
them, someone else may not. Such is the nature of the phonemic
alphabet, and the nature of people.

We've gone in this circle so many times I'm getting dizzy!
--Star

--- j_brg <stetsdigs@...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Star
> > Excuse me.....
> >
> > Joe did ask what sounds, I would collapse from the AHD Dictionary
> > Pronunciation Key into the Shaw Alphabet.
> > And I do have a slightly different critera than Hughs.
> > As a Canadian, this subset of 44 of the Shaw Letters plus the
> > composite letter Yew does the best job of unequivically writing my
> > English accent.
> > How many letters do you need to write your Virginian Accent?
> > Regards, Paul V.
>
> May be we can have a competition to see how _few_ letters we can
> write with? That would surely help us all...
>
>
>
> Sorry for my tone, but I agree that we have been through this so many
>
> times and the only way to write is with the greatest number of
> distinctions. If you wish to drop a distinction then a good case
> needs to be made for doing so.
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
>
>


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One, I'm from Tennessee, two, I have found occasion to use all 48,
three, I still think we have beaten this dead horse beyond, way beyond
necessary.

Thank you.
--Star

--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> Hi Star
> Excuse me.....
>
> Joe did ask what sounds, I would collapse from the AHD Dictionary
> Pronunciation Key into the Shaw Alphabet.
> And I do have a slightly different critera than Hughs.
> As a Canadian, this subset of 44 of the Shaw Letters plus the
> composite letter Yew does the best job of unequivically writing my
> English accent.
> How many letters do you need to write your Virginian Accent?
> Regards, Paul V.
> ________________________attached_______________________
> --- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
> > Bad Dead Horse! *whip whip whip* Bad! Bad Dead Horse!
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > > First. realize that wh and w in the AHD Dictionary are already
> > > collapsed into the Shaw Letter Woe.
> > > And there is no equivalent to the Shaw Letters Yew and Ian.
> > > I would like to collapse the a with the umlat (father) and the
> soft o
> > >
> > > (got) into the Shaw Letter Ahms.
> > > I would like to also collapse the schwar (butter) and ur (term)
> into
> > > the Shaw letter Array.
> > > Finally, I would like to collapse the letter u and the letter
> schwa
> > > into the Shaw letter Up.
> > > I think the letter Ado should actally be reserved to indicate
> > > consonants which are complete syllables in themselves.
> > > For example, the l in girl and rattle, the m in bottom, and the n
>
> in
> > > sudden and rotten.
> > > This is because I believe every syllable should have a distinct
> vowel
> > >
> > > letter when written, not to rely on an implicit or hidden vowel.
> > >
> > > Regards, Paul V.
> > > P.S. Realize this does make the Shaw letters On and Err
> extraneous.
> > > Final result would be a more effective Shaw Alphabet of 44
> letters.
> > >
> > > ___________________attached____________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> > > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > --- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > > --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> > > > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > > > To me this suggests that we should take the AHD, eliminate
> as
> > > > much
> > > > > > complication as possible, derive a simplified pronunciation
>
> by
> > > > > > eliminating excess phonemes (Rarely used Phonemes).
> > > > > > I can think of 3 Phonemes right of the bat, that I could
> live
> > > > without.
> > > > > > Perhaps they could be collapsed into other Phonemes.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think we really need to merge phonemes. I think for
> it
> > > to
> > > > be maximally
> > > > > comprehensible, we need as many distinctions as we can get,
> and
> > > > readers who don't
> > > > > know the difference will just gloss over them. But what
> phonemes
> > >
> > > > in particular are
> > > > > you talking about?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Why is it always me and the burning death?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
>


=====
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It is sometimes useful in English to transcribe words from foreign language=

s, to teach
the language, for example.

I thought of this because I've been transcribing into Shavian some of my fi=

ction, which
uses my constructed languages, and I'm not sure how to spell it. Specifica=

lly, the
conlang in question has vowels similar to German, which I don't know how to=


transcribe.

I have the word "chöhoht" (in case it doesn't show up, the ö is an o with t=

wo dots),
which could also be more phonetically as "chøhocht" or "chœhocht", if those=

weren't
so harsh to look at. If you're wondering, it means "blood and breath".

Anyway, I wrote it in Shavian as /coehoht/. Does that spelling make any se=

nse to
anybody else? I really hate to use a digraph like /oe/ in Shavian, but I'm=

not sure
what else to use. Maybe I should just stick with the ö (o with umlaut/dots=

).

Of course, if I were teaching the language, I would probably just use its n=

ative script,
but I'm not teaching it.

Thanks,
Joe



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I've been working on a new Shavian font that I call Shavian Garamond. I'm having
some issues with the software I'm using (Font Lab) that are keeping me from
producing a final font, but I've got a preview.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YLR9QMX6_zVTVDPR8A6KUhT5-C__-Q-
48Xj5YfzhLvz_YYpjh7-a5NXuckLuHhIxaRGEgbOb_kAGgjWIy1ZmzfuFpFKzp3EGSb5-/
images/shaw_gar.png

If that doesn't work it's under Files/Images on the group site. It still needs some
work, but I think you'll like it.



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Paul V wrote:

>First. realize that wh and w >in the AHD Dictionary are >already
>collapsed into the Shaw >Letter Woe.

It doesnt mean people cant use it between themselves. But 'wh' im sure is largely ignored across the english speaking world so it probably wouldnt feature in any standard spelling. I dont know many dictionaries that do feature it.

>And there is no equivalent >to the Shaw Letters Yew >and Ian.

Well its easy enough to interpret [jM] as [V], isnt it? I still dont see any problem with that letter. As for ian i'd agree that its probably pointless, at least as far as the AHD's concerned - but that doesnt mean that there arent people out there who say that sound (long 'if' or non-rhotic 'ear' sound) and need the letter. So dont do away with it.

>I would like to collapse the >a with the umlat (father) >and the soft o
>(got) into the Shaw Letter >Ahms.

I dont know of a letter alms - you mean ah?

And no, as has been discussed, ah cant be merged with on. Shavian isnt just supposed to be for americans. The distinction is needed by speakers of british english, australian english and im sure guite a few speakers of american english. The ahd keeps the distinction so why mess with it? Besides it really isnt difficult to remember the few words where you would use 'ah' and just use 'on' for all other occurrences.

>I would like to also collapse >the schwar (butter) and ur >(term) into
>the Shaw letter Array.

Same as above. Why mess with it if you have a dictionary that explains when to use either letter instead of the other? Also see below.

>Finally, I would like to >collapse the letter u and >the letter schwa
>into the Shaw letter Up.

Shavian implicitly represents stress. To do that it uses two different symbols for the 'uh' sound. This will never change, and it isnt difficult to get the hang of using them.

>I think the letter Ado >should actally be reserved >to indicate
>consonants which are >complete syllables in >themselves.

Why would it need to be reserved? It can already be used for that purpose.

>For example, the l in girl

i didnt think this had 2 syllables.

>P.S. Realize this does make >the Shaw letters On and >Err extraneous.
>Final result would be a >more effective Shaw >Alphabet of 44 letters.

Of course, weve already tried this exact same approach, it was called Cut Shavian. Nobody was interested. Rather than create yet another 'modified shavian' lets concentrate on getting shavian PROPER going.

If anyone has problems with the phonemes mentioned above: www.dictionary.com will help.

Hugh B



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I think to myself as this 'shavian letter confusion' issue comes back around, once again - everyone should read Androcles as a guide. It should be compulsory. If i hadnt read it, i would never have begun to understand a lot of shavian letters i saw in the reading key.

Androcles DOES NOT merely teach you british english pronunciation, contrary to what some people might say - the AMERICAN heritage dictionary agrees with phonemes used in the majority of words. Among other things, Androcles shows in which CONTEXTS phonemes are used.

Hugh B



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Hi Joe

Sounds like you are talking about a new Dipthong.
The Shaw Alphabet doesn't really have a good way of transcribing a
new Dipthong.
Shaw handles Dipthongs by adding a new letter usually.
And it has the 4 main English Dipthongs already as letters.
You could write the vowels out, and get a close approx. of the sound.
That is acceptable to me.
I do that myself for 2 English vowels that don't have their own Shaw
Letter.
The EU of Euchre and few, I write If+Ooze
And the UI of the French Oui I write Ooze+If
It's funny (peculiar) that these two Dipthongs are the reverse of
each other.

And for OA of Boa Constrictor, I just add an Adu. Oat+Ado
Much as my preferred spelling of Ian as Eat+Adu.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. By the way. Thanks for the comments. I find it educational, as
well.

______________attached_______________________
--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> It is sometimes useful in English to transcribe words from foreign
language=
> s, to teach
> the language, for example.
>
> I thought of this because I've been transcribing into Shavian some
of my fi=
> ction, which
> uses my constructed languages, and I'm not sure how to spell it.
Specifica=
> lly, the
> conlang in question has vowels similar to German, which I don't
know how to=
>
> transcribe.
>
> I have the word "chöhoht" (in case it doesn't show up, the ö is an
o with t=
> wo dots),
> which could also be more phonetically as "chøhocht" or "chœhocht",
if those=
> weren't
> so harsh to look at. If you're wondering, it means "blood and
breath".
>
> Anyway, I wrote it in Shavian as /coehoht/. Does that spelling
make any se=
> nse to
> anybody else? I really hate to use a digraph like /oe/ in Shavian,
but I'm=
> not sure
> what else to use. Maybe I should just stick with the ö (o with
umlaut/dots=
> ).
>
> Of course, if I were teaching the language, I would probably just
use its n=
> ative script,
> but I'm not teaching it.
>
> Thanks,
> Joe



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A wonderful reply, Hugh, and thank you for the good read. Between the
two of you, this looks like an FAQ to me ;) as this is the sum total of
the discussions we've had before.

Although I have to add, I do prefer having the /wh/ phenome, but I'll
live, I suppose, or keep using my own wh (if I ever have time to learn
font making, I will add this one into my own font).

Thanks and be joyous!
--Star

--- mixsynth@... wrote:
> Paul V wrote:
>
> >First. realize that wh and w >in the AHD Dictionary are >already
> >collapsed into the Shaw >Letter Woe.
>
> It doesnt mean people cant use it between themselves. But 'wh' im
> sure is largely ignored across the english speaking world so it
> probably wouldnt feature in any standard spelling. I dont know many
> dictionaries that do feature it.
>
> >And there is no equivalent >to the Shaw Letters Yew >and Ian.
>
> Well its easy enough to interpret [jM] as [V], isnt it? I still dont
> see any problem with that letter. As for ian i'd agree that its
> probably pointless, at least as far as the AHD's concerned - but that
> doesnt mean that there arent people out there who say that sound
> (long 'if' or non-rhotic 'ear' sound) and need the letter. So dont do
> away with it.
>
> >I would like to collapse the >a with the umlat (father) >and the
> soft o
> >(got) into the Shaw Letter >Ahms.
>
> I dont know of a letter alms - you mean ah?
>
> And no, as has been discussed, ah cant be merged with on. Shavian
> isnt just supposed to be for americans. The distinction is needed by
> speakers of british english, australian english and im sure guite a
> few speakers of american english. The ahd keeps the distinction so
> why mess with it? Besides it really isnt difficult to remember the
> few words where you would use 'ah' and just use 'on' for all other
> occurrences.
>
> >I would like to also collapse >the schwar (butter) and ur >(term)
> into
> >the Shaw letter Array.
>
> Same as above. Why mess with it if you have a dictionary that
> explains when to use either letter instead of the other? Also see
> below.
>
> >Finally, I would like to >collapse the letter u and >the letter
> schwa
> >into the Shaw letter Up.
>
> Shavian implicitly represents stress. To do that it uses two
> different symbols for the 'uh' sound. This will never change, and it
> isnt difficult to get the hang of using them.
>
> >I think the letter Ado >should actally be reserved >to indicate
> >consonants which are >complete syllables in >themselves.
>
> Why would it need to be reserved? It can already be used for that
> purpose.
>
> >For example, the l in girl
>
> i didnt think this had 2 syllables.
>
> >P.S. Realize this does make >the Shaw letters On and >Err
> extraneous.
> >Final result would be a >more effective Shaw >Alphabet of 44
> letters.
>
> Of course, weve already tried this exact same approach, it was called
> Cut Shavian. Nobody was interested. Rather than create yet another
> 'modified shavian' lets concentrate on getting shavian PROPER going.
>
> If anyone has problems with the phonemes mentioned above:
> www.dictionary.com will help.
>
> Hugh B
>
>


=====
Why is it always me and the burning death?




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Hi Hugh

Thanks for your thoughtful response. You are quite correct in the
majority of your comments. In particular, you are right that I did
mean to say Ah instead of Ahms.

And as for my comments referring to the collapsing of 2 AHD letters
into just 1 Shavian letter does not refer to any overall change to
the writing Shaw, but only to the transliteration of words to Shavian
based on the AHD phonetic transcription and the AHD Dictionary Key.
I was suggesting a more conservative transliteration scheme, might be
safer realizing the AHD's American roots.
Thank Goodness, you realized what I was talking about.

In fact, I now use all the Shaw letters with the exception of Ian and
On in my own personal Shavian writing, based on own pronunciation.

And as we discussed before, I would be prepared to use a letter
for "wh" sound and the "ah" sound in its restrictive sense, if a
managable number of exceptions were listed for each sound.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. As the Bi-Alphabetic Androcles and the Lion Edition has been out
of print for more than 40 years, I think we need a more modern
edition for use as our usage standard. Maybe a new edition could be
produced for the up-coming 50th aniversery of GBS death.

P.P.S. Has anyone been able to find even an old second hand copy
recently?

______________________________attached______________________




--- In shavian@..., mixsynth@f... wrote:
> Paul V wrote:
>
> >And there is no equivalent >to the Shaw Letters Yew >and Ian.
>
> Well its easy enough to interpret [jM] as [V], isnt it? I still
dont see any problem with that letter. As for ian i'd agree that its
probably pointless, at least as far as the AHD's concerned - but that
doesnt mean that there arent people out there who say that sound
(long 'if' or non-rhotic 'ear' sound) and need the letter. So dont do
away with it.
>
> >I would like to collapse the >a with the umlat (father) >and the
soft o
> >(got) into the Shaw Letter >Ahms.
>
> I dont know of a letter alms - you mean ah?
>
> And no, as has been discussed, ah cant be merged with on. Shavian
isnt just supposed to be for americans. The distinction is needed by
speakers of british english, australian english and im sure guite a
few speakers of american english. The ahd keeps the distinction so
why mess with it? Besides it really isnt difficult to remember the
few words where you would use 'ah' and just use 'on' for all other
occurrences.
>
> >I would like to also collapse >the schwar (butter) and ur >(term)
into
> >the Shaw letter Array.
>
> Same as above. Why mess with it if you have a dictionary that
explains when to use either letter instead of the other? Also see
below.
>
> Shavian implicitly represents stress. To do that it uses two
different symbols for the 'uh' sound. This will never change, and it
isnt difficult to get the hang of using them.
>
> >I think the letter Ado >should actally be reserved >to indicate
> >consonants which are >complete syllables in >themselves.
>
> Why would it need to be reserved? It can already be used for that
purpose.
>
> >For example, the l in girl
>
> I didnt think this word had 2 syllables.
>
Rather than create yet another 'modified shavian' lets concentrate on
getting shavian PROPER going.
>
> If anyone has problems with the phonemes mentioned above:
www.dictionary.com will help.
>
> Hugh B



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paul vandenbrink wrote:
[Androcles]
> P.P.S. Has anyone been able to find even an old second hand copy
> recently?

They occasionally show up on ABEBooks (basically, a forum for searching used
book sellers' inventories worldwide).

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


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