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Hi Paul and Ethan,

I agree that illiteracy is rampant in the western world. Mostly to T.O.. Most people I know don't like to read. I believe Shavian can help to make reading simpler than figuring out how to read irregular spellings. Trouble is most people feel more comfortable with the familiar (though inadequate) writing system (T.O.). When I talk to people about Shavian they agree that Traditional Orthography in English has funny spellings and are curious why the word "phonetic" isn't spelled the way it sounds. Alas, most people I've talked to are much for adopting a new alphabet.
I'm highly literate with T.O. like the 'scholars' Paul talks about that can read T.O. well.
I'm not exactly a spelling reformer, but I do think English should detach it's written words for Roman letters, because we no longer depend on Latin as a center of learning. We're a worldcentric society now with learning. So I hope it would be fair for English to have its own alphabet -- unique from the Roman alphabet.

best of regards,

Carl

Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:

paul vandenbrink wrote:
> A newspaper story in today's paper indicates only 3/4 of our Canadian
> High School students every achieve Literacy. Even after having
> succesfully passed thru 10 years of Grade School Education.
> Ontario and Alberta require students to pass a simply literacy test
> upon completion of Grade 10. The student must pass it before he
> graduates from High School. Otherwise he doesn't get his Diploma.
> Growing numbers of High School student can not demonstrate any
> Reading ability. Teachers are complaining about these tests, saying
> that not giving a student a High School Diploma unfairly handicaps
> him in the workplace. But isn't illiteracy a handicap.
> Not apparently
> See attached news article. They actually consider 77% an
> improvement!!!!
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. I assume the results are the same or worse in the United States,
> where grade inflation is rampant.
> Are there any statistics out there about local literacy.

I don't know the statistics off hand, but they aren't too good. Yes,
there is a lot of grade inflation - "grading on the curve" they call it.
The best student in the class gets an A, all others are graded
accordingly. Many highschool graduates can't read. It's not entirely
due to the irregularity of English spelling - literacy rates were much
higher not that many years ago, while the language has changed little in
that time. The problem seems to stem from various attempts to simplify
the teaching of reading. But there's no way around the complex task of
teaching the alphabet, followed by all the many rules of pronunciation
and spelling. That is, assuming you're teaching TO. With Shavian, you
just teach the alphabet.

--
·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 - Ethan


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carl easton <shavintel16@...> wrote:

Hi Paul and Ethan,

I agree that illiteracy is rampant in the western world. Mostly to T.O.. Most people I know don't like to read. I believe Shavian can help to make reading simpler than figuring out how to read irregular spellings. Trouble is most people feel more comfortable with the familiar (though inadequate) writing system (T.O.). When I talk to people about Shavian they agree that Traditional Orthography in English has funny spellings and are curious why the word "phonetic" isn't spelled the way it sounds. Alas, most people I've talked to aren't much for adopting a new alphabet.
I'm highly literate with T.O. like the 'scholars' Paul talks about that can read T.O. well.
I'm not exactly a spelling reformer, but I do think English should detach it's written words for Roman letters, because we no longer depend on Latin as a center of learning. We're a worldcentric society now with learning. So I hope it would be fair for English to have its own alphabet -- unique from the Roman alphabet.

best of regards,

Carl

Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:

paul vandenbrink wrote:
> A newspaper story in today's paper indicates only 3/4 of our Canadian
> High School students every achieve Literacy. Even after having
> succesfully passed thru 10 years of Grade School Education.
> Ontario and Alberta require students to pass a simply literacy test
> upon completion of Grade 10. The student must pass it before he
> graduates from High School. Otherwise he doesn't get his Diploma.
> Growing numbers of High School student can not demonstrate any
> Reading ability. Teachers are complaining about these tests, saying
> that not giving a student a High School Diploma unfairly handicaps
> him in the workplace. But isn't illiteracy a handicap.
> Not apparently
> See attached news article. They actually consider 77% an
> improvement!!!!
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. I assume the results are the same or worse in the United States,
> where grade inflation is rampant.
> Are there any statistics out there about local literacy.

I don't know the statistics off hand, but they aren't too good. Yes,
there is a lot of grade inflation - "grading on the curve" they call it.
The best student in the class gets an A, all others are graded
accordingly. Many highschool graduates can't read. It's not entirely
due to the irregularity of English spelling - literacy rates were much
higher not that many years ago, while the language has changed little in
that time. The problem seems to stem from various attempts to simplify
the teaching of reading. But there's no way around the complex task of
teaching the alphabet, followed by all the many rules of pronunciation
and spelling. That is, assuming you're teaching TO. With Shavian, you
just teach the alphabet.

--
·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 - Ethan



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Sorry folks the first one I posted was in error. The second one is more exact.

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--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
>
>
> carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:Hi Paul and Ethan,
>
> I agree that illiteracy is rampant in the western world. Mostly to
T.O.. Most people I know don't like to read. I believe Shavian can
help to make reading simpler than figuring out how to read irregular
spellings. Trouble is most people feel more comfortable with the
familiar (though inadequate) writing system (T.O.). When I talk to
people about Shavian they agree that Traditional Orthography in
English has funny spellings and are curious why the word "phonetic"
isn't spelled the way it sounds. Alas, most people I've talked to
aren't much for adopting a new alphabet.
> I'm highly literate with T.O. like the 'scholars' Paul talks about
that can read T.O. well.
> I'm not exactly a spelling reformer, but I do think English should
detach it's written words from Roman letters, because we no longer
depend on Latin as a center of learning. We're a worldcentric
society now with learning. So I hope it would be fair for English to
have its own alphabet -- unique from the Roman alphabet.
>
> best of regards,
>
> Carl
>
> Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > A newspaper story in today's paper indicates only 3/4 of our
Canadian
> > High School students every achieve Literacy. Even after having
> > succesfully passed thru 10 years of Grade School Education.
> > Ontario and Alberta require students to pass a simply literacy
test
> > upon completion of Grade 10. The student must pass it before he
> > graduates from High School. Otherwise he doesn't get his Diploma.
> > Growing numbers of High School student can not demonstrate any
> > Reading ability. Teachers are complaining about these tests,
saying
> > that not giving a student a High School Diploma unfairly
handicaps
> > him in the workplace. But isn't illiteracy a handicap.
> > Not apparently
> > See attached news article. They actually consider 77% an
> > improvement!!!!
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > P.S. I assume the results are the same or worse in the United
States,
> > where grade inflation is rampant.
> > Are there any statistics out there about local literacy.
>
> I don't know the statistics off hand, but they aren't too good.
Yes,
> there is a lot of grade inflation - "grading on the curve" they
call it.
> The best student in the class gets an A, all others are graded
> accordingly. Many highschool graduates can't read. It's not
entirely
> due to the irregularity of English spelling - literacy rates were
much
> higher not that many years ago, while the language has changed
little in
> that time. The problem seems to stem from various attempts to
simplify
> the teaching of reading. But there's no way around the complex
task of
> teaching the alphabet, followed by all the many rules of
pronunciation
> and spelling. That is, assuming you're teaching TO. With Shavian,
you
> just teach the alphabet.
>
> --
> ·ð`°ð`"ð`©ð`¯ - Ethan
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shavian-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Sorry folks the first one I posted was in error. The second one is
more exact.
>
And I made another correction to the last revision.
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs



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Problem with Roman Alphabet Literacy in Canada for English

Ethan wrote:
It's not entirely due to the irregularity of English spelling.
Literacy rates were much higher not that many years ago, while the
language has changed little in that time. The problem seems to stem
from various attempts to simplify the teaching of reading.
There's no way around the complex task of
teaching the alphabet, and all the many rules of
pronunciation and English spelling.
That is, assuming you're teaching TO. With Shavian,
you just teach the alphabet.

I agree with Rthan but would like to expand on the above point.
Teachers switched to Look/Say method about 30 years ago. So now we
have teachers teaching English, who learned to read using the
Look/Say method. Why do teachers persist in using a method that is
known to be inadequate for a sizable proportion of their students
(40%).

I believe the main benefit of the Look/Say method to teach reading,
is that is a structured repetitive method that allows the teacher to
teach the class as a whole. Students can participate passively. This
method not only simplifies the teaching process, so the teacher can
better maintan control of her large class, but does not discriminate
against the illiterates. They can learn a few words. They can even be
given Drugs (Ritilin) to reduce boredom and to improve their ability
to focus.
In the old days illiterates were held back and given Remedial courses
but now with streaming they are promoted to the next grade with
everyone else to avoid damaging their social development and self
esteem.
To hold someone back and not give him a High School Diploma just
because he is illiterate is now considered to be a form of
discrimination. Unfortunately, it becomes more and more difficult to
teach reading the older the child becomes. It is never too late, but
after grade 4 the child requires more and more individual attention.
Catch-22.

Teaching reading, even with the Shaw Alphabet requires some
individual attention and correction. Obviously, it would take a
little less time with the Shaw Alphabet, as there is much less to
learn. Hopefully, by the end of second grade, the average student
would be able to read stories well enough, to proceed to develop
improved comprehension with out all that individual tutoring.

If parents were not participating in the teaching process of T.O.,
these statistics would be much worse.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Actually, the Roman Alphabet is adequate for Latin and the other
Romance Language. It could even be made to work for English with some
spelling reform and the addition of another 12 or 15 letters.
However, spelling Reform creates such a huge resistance from the
priviliged, already literate class, that it would be impossible to
successfully implement it across the English speaking world.
Hey, we can't even get everybody to use Metric Measurements.
The Shavian Alphabet is only alternative with a good chance of
success.


--- In shavian@..., "Carl G. Easton" <shavintel16@y...> >
> carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
Hi Paul and Ethan,
> > I agree that illiteracy is rampant in the western world. Mostly
due to T.O.. Most people I know don't like to read. I believe
Shavian can help to make reading simpler than figuring out how to
read irregular
> spellings. Trouble is most people feel more comfortable with the
> familiar (though inadequate) writing system (T.O.). When I talk to
> people about Shavian they agree that Traditional Orthography in
> English has funny spellings and are curious why the word "phonetic"
> isn't spelled the way it sounds. Alas, most people I've talked to
> aren't much for adopting a new alphabet.
> > I'm highly literate with T.O. like the 'scholars' Paul talks
about
> that can read T.O. well.
> > I'm not exactly a spelling reformer, but I do think English
should
> detach it's written words from Roman letters, because we no longer
> dependant on Latin as a center of learning. We're a world centric
> society now with our own learning. So I hope it would be fair for
English to
> have its own alphabet -- unique from the Roman alphabet.
> > best of regards,Carl




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From: "paul vandenbrink"


> "practise" versus "a practice".
>
> In US spelling it's always "practice". The British spell
> it "practice" if it's the noun and "practise" if it's the verb.

Not this brit. I've always spelled them both as "practice" and I've never
been picked up on it.

Hugh B



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Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
> From: "paul vandenbrink"
>
>
>
>>"practise" versus "a practice".
>>
>>In US spelling it's always "practice". The British spell
>>it "practice" if it's the noun and "practise" if it's the verb.
>
>
> Not this brit. I've always spelled them both as "practice" and I've never
> been picked up on it.
>
> Hugh B

Ah, but spell it "practis" and see what happens! Okay, I'll admit I
can't stand "spelling reform" efforts, such as Cut Spelling and other
more or less radical methods. To me they seem to just be like trying to
straighten up a junkyard!

--
·???????? - Ethan


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This is not exactly on topic, but I think you will see where I am
coming from.

Illiteracy and Poverty in U.S.A

More than 20% of adults read at or below a fifth grade level - far
below the level needed to earn a living wage. The National Adult
Literacy Survey found that over 40 million Americans, age 16 and
older, have significant literacy needs.

Forty-three percent (43%) of people with the lowest literacy skills
live in poverty, 17% receive food stamps, and 70% have no job or a
part-time job.

Workers who lack a high school diploma earn a mean monthly income of
$452.00, compared to $1,829.00 for those with a bachelor's degree.

Welfare recipients ages 17-21 read, on average, at the sixth grade
level. When teens drop out of school, they are likely to drop in to
the welfare system.

Almost 50% of adults on welfare do not have a high school diploma or
GED.

Over 60% of those who spend more than five years on welfare enter
AFDC with less than a high school education.

Over 65% of people on welfare who have a high school diploma or GED
leave welfare and become self-sufficient within two years.

Only 51% of prisoners have completed high school or its equivalent,
as compared with 76% of the general population.

Seventy percent (70%) of prisoners scored in the two lowest literacy
levels of the National Adult Literacy Survey. This means that, while
they have some reading and writing skills, they are not adequately
equipped to perform tasks like writing a letter, explaining an error
on a credit card bill, or understanding a bus schedule.

Inmates who have a high school diploma demonstrate lower basic
skills than members of the general public with a high school diploma
do, which suggests that their low literacy level is a basic
impediment.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Does anyone have the equivalent statistics for Australia, South
Africa, Britian and Canada.





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