Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

In a message from Phillip Driscoll <phild@...>
dated Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:06:41 -0500, my mailer made me see:

-> The fonts on my web page have Shavian characters defined in the
-> Unicode space as well as the "normal" ASCII range. I believe the
-> Androcles and Ghoti fonts from Mr. DeMeyere also have the same
-> encoding, although I've never tried using the Unicode code points.
->
-> (My crude site is at www2.c4systm.com/~phild/ . I'm sorry, but the
-> Mac versions don't work.)
->
-> --Phillip Driscoll
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
-> To: shavian@... <shavian@...>
-> Date: Friday, December 17, 1999 12:26 AM
-> Subject: [shavian] Re: Data formats for Shavian
->
->
-> >On 16 Dec 99, at 15:45, Scott Harrison wrote:
-> >
-> >> In fact, one should be able to create HTML pages that are in UTF-8
-> >> with mixed Shavian and any other alphabet on them. If so, we just
-> >> need to determine how the browsers can be convinced to use specific
-> >> Shavian fonts when encountering Shavian characters on a web page.
-> >> Again, I am willing to help people be able to do this.
-> >
-> >I think that what it comes down to is that we need fonts which have the
-> >correct encoding -- i.e., which map the Unicode code point to the
-> >correct glyph. At a guess, the current fonts (Lionspaw, Androcles etc.)
-> >have the glyphs at code points corresponding to Latin letters. So we
-> >would need someone to make a new font (or re-tool an old one) to
-> >include both Latin letters and Shavian letters, with the correct
-> >Unicode code point assignments. Then the browser might stand a fighting
-> >chance of displaying the correct glyph.
-> >
-> >Maybe someone could take a free Latin font and retrofit Shavian in the
-> >ConScript Shavian range?
-> >
-> >Cheers,
-> >Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
->
->

Interestingly enough I was able to make a simple UTF-8 web page that had "This is a test" in Latin and Shavian characters. On my machine running MacOS X Server, there is no problem using the OmniWeb browser and I get a page with both on it fine (because I use my Shavian software on my web page).

However, I try to open the same file with Netscape on NT and it doesn't work properly. I downloaded Phillip Driscoll's fonts and they work with the Unicode data! :-) However, since the fonts also encode the Latin characters using the same Shavian glyphs, all the "normal" English comes out wrong.

Is there a way to strip the lower ASCII values out of the TTF font? I would like to try to see what happens if the font only has Shavian Unicode points in it. If that does not work, I guess we need a font with both Latin and Shavian characters in it like Philip Newton describes.

Since I have been able to create the UTF-8 web page I think I will also put my Unicode documents up as UTF-8 web pages since that may be more convenient for people.

--Scott

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Reminder from the shavian calendar at eGroups.com

Event: Andrew Callaway -- transliteration
URL: http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=shavian&md=d&day=10944
Date: Sun Dec 19, 1999
Time:



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----- Original Message -----
From: A.M.Callaway <acal@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: 17 December 1999 1:56 pm
Subject: [shavian] Re: Homographs

> Of course, there's a whole range of [homographs] when you start thinking about it;
> words that are spelt the same but pronounced differently,

They're what I'm concerned with...

> words that are
> pronouced differently by different accents, and words that are in the
> process of moving from one pronunciation to another.

...but I'm not fussed about those last two. All I'm bothered about at the moment is creating a database that will transliterate correctly for any one accent, at one point in time. If anyone else needs to transliterate for a different accent, then a new, amended database could be created. Otherwise things would get too complicated for me. Are you trying to put me off making my program, Callaway, you crafty devil?


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----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Harrison <Scott_Harrison@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: 17 December 1999 4:57 pm
Subject: [shavian] Re: Homographs

> I wish I could download the CMU pronouncing dictionary, but the page
> will not let me at it because of permission problems. Therefore, if
> someone has it can you point me to it (or mail it to me in a compressed
> form if it is small enough).

My web browser crashes every time I try to download it from the CMU web site. So I got it with my FTP program instead. Now I've put it in the Vault.

Go to www.egroups.com/group/shavian
...then select the "Vault" link, then "datafiles". There you should find the file cmudict--c06d.zip. It's 852k.

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Dear Lionel,
Your effort in creating your database is heroic. Dictionary projects
(the new word is "language databases) are truly awesome tasks; and I applaud
you for your work. I don't appreciate the computer complexity, because I'm a
linguist. But even the linguistic problems in the task you have undertaken
are considerable. You are quite right in wanting to work on one limited area
at a time. I have to constantly impose limits on my own work. But
again--Kudos for your work! Dan
----------
>From: "Lionel Ghoti" <lionel_ghoti@...>
>To: "Shavian eGroup" <shavian@...>
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Homographs
>Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999, 3:28 PM
>

>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: A.M.Callaway <acal@...>
>To: <shavian@...>
>Sent: 17 December 1999 1:56 pm
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Homographs
>
>> Of course, there's a whole range of [homographs] when you start thinking
>about it;
>> words that are spelt the same but pronounced differently,
>
>They're what I'm concerned with...
>
>> words that are
>> pronouced differently by different accents, and words that are in the
>> process of moving from one pronunciation to another.
>
>...but I'm not fussed about those last two. All I'm bothered about at the
>moment is creating a database that will transliterate correctly for any one
>accent, at one point in time. If anyone else needs to transliterate for a
>different accent, then a new, amended database could be created. Otherwise
>things would get too complicated for me. Are you trying to put me off
>making my program, Callaway, you crafty devil?
>
>
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>products, locate the lowest prices, and check out with a single
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>-- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=shavian&m=1
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>
>

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Dear Andy, I was a little confused by your Shavian transliteration at
first. Is there a reason you didn't use the standard abbreviation for "the"
that's listed in the Shavian table? Not a criticism. Justwanted to know.
Dan
----------
>From: "A.M.Callaway" <acal@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Ghoti Filleter -- delta-testers wanted
>Date: Thu, Dec 16, 1999, 5:08 AM
>

>At 01:45 AM 12/15/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>I've been chiselling away
>You might find it easier if you type it in... (ducks)
>
>>
>>There are two main differences between this and Andy Callaway's The
>Phonetic Translator:
>>1) It doesn't (at the moment) come with any substantial pre-defined
>phonetic dictionary: you teach it yourself, according to your accent.
>Are you saving the file in the same format as the CMU dictionary? I think
>that would be useful (for me anyway :-)
>>
>>I've fed it a few snippets of magazine articles and fairy tales, and it
>has a dictionary of about 300 words at the moment.
>After reading this something occurred to me. There are dictation programs
>out there which taken spoken words and create text from them, such as
>Dragon Dictate. I'm wondering whether these programs would be smart enough
>to create some sort of phonetic text. Then you could just talk into it. It
>would take a lot of the drudgery out of creating the dictionary.
>
>- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
>- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
>- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
>
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>-- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
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>
>
>

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Dear Andy, I was a little confused by your Shavian transliteration at
first. Is there a reason you didn't use the standard abbreviation for "the"
that's listed in the Shavian table? Not a criticism. Justwanted to know.
Dan
----------
>From: "A.M.Callaway" <acal@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Ghoti Filleter -- delta-testers wanted
>Date: Thu, Dec 16, 1999, 5:08 AM
>

>At 01:45 AM 12/15/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>I've been chiselling away
>You might find it easier if you type it in... (ducks)
>
>>
>>There are two main differences between this and Andy Callaway's The
>Phonetic Translator:
>>1) It doesn't (at the moment) come with any substantial pre-defined
>phonetic dictionary: you teach it yourself, according to your accent.
>Are you saving the file in the same format as the CMU dictionary? I think
>that would be useful (for me anyway :-)
>>
>>I've fed it a few snippets of magazine articles and fairy tales, and it
>has a dictionary of about 300 words at the moment.
>After reading this something occurred to me. There are dictation programs
>out there which taken spoken words and create text from them, such as
>Dragon Dictate. I'm wondering whether these programs would be smart enough
>to create some sort of phonetic text. Then you could just talk into it. It
>would take a lot of the drudgery out of creating the dictionary.
>
>- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
>- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
>- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The only fruitcake at overstock.com is our manager.
>Hems giving away a $20 coupon, plus our everyday Free Shipping.
>Take advantage of the savings and selection now.
>http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/2134
>
>-- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
>-- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/shavian/?m=1
>
>
>

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In a message from Lionel Ghoti <lionel_ghoti@...>
dated Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:34:40 +0000, my mailer made me see:

->
-> > I wish I could download the CMU pronouncing dictionary, but the page
-> > will not let me at it because of permission problems. Therefore, if
-> > someone has it can you point me to it (or mail it to me in a compressed
-> > form if it is small enough).
->
-> My web browser crashes every time I try to download it from the CMU web site. So I got it with my FTP program instead. Now I've put it in the Vault.
->
-> Go to www.egroups.com/group/shavian
-> ...then select the "Vault" link, then "datafiles". There you should find the file cmudict--c06d.zip. It's 852k.
->

Thanks. I have successfully downloaded it from the Vault. I now have to evaluate its contents to see how applicable it is to what I am doing. At first blush it seems that the "a" in "ado" is not handled the way I prefer. This may cause a problem. (Of course I already have a problem with "ah" as it is.)

--Scott

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I don't really understand Unicode. I think I must have been off sick the day they taught it at school. I've looked at www.unicode.org, but it seems to be aimed at professional programmers, of which I am not one. As far as I understand it, Unicode is a standard by which every alphabetical character commonly used in the world is assigned its own unique code. I hope that this would mean that it would be possible to write a document in, say, the Shavian and Roman alphabets without switching fonts. I'd guess that a font could theoretically include all of the many thousands of characters in the Unicode set, but that this would be impractical, resulting in a huge file size for such a font... So I suppose that for our purposes, a font called, say ShavianRomanIPA might be created, which would allow us to converse about our corner of spelling reform using three alphabets, but without continually switching font.

Practically everything I've said above is mere assumption, so I expect to be at least half wrong about a lot of it. I can't find any web site that explains the basics clearly.

I've looked at the Shavian section of your web site, Scott. Of the Declaration of Independence documents, the one listed as "Shavian" comes out in my web browser as lots of empty squares separated by commas, full stops and spaces; the one listed as "UTF-8 Web Page" looks just the same. If I view the HTML source of the latter in a text-editor, it looks like lots of "ioe'ioe-ioe", with plenty of diacritics and ligatures thrown in. The web browser is displaying it in Times New Roman, I think; the text-editor in Courier New.

I'm using Windows 95 and Internet Explorer 5. What do I have to do to view your pages as they should be seen? And how do I write pages using Unicode? If I'm writing a web page and I want to write the sound at the beginning of "tot" in both Shavian and Roman alphabets, then I first specify a Roman font, type "t" on my keyboard, then specify a Shavian font, then type "t" again. How would I enter the two different symbols in Unicode? I think I might have got the wrong end of the stick about this Unicode thing, and I suppose I'm asking the wrong questions; but I'm asking them all the same, just to let you see how much explaining needs to be done before we baffled Unicode ignoramuses can jump on the bandwagon.

Sincerely,

Lionel Ghoti


----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Harrison <Scott_Harrison@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: 16 December 1999 8:45 pm
Subject: [shavian] Data formats for Shavian


Hello,

I have noticed people posting Shavian information using ASCII characters, and therefore would assume people view this information by switching the default font to one that renders those characters as the appropriate Shavian glyphs.

However, I have started putting Shavian data onto my web site as Unicode files that use the current ConScript encodings (as the final code points for Shavian are not defined). Are there people out there that can read the Shavian Unicode information? If not, do you know ways that one can display Unicode files on your platforms in general? I can always attempt to help figure out ways to look at the data in Unicode format since that seems to be the best longterm solution.

In fact, one should be able to create HTML pages that are in UTF-8 with mixed Shavian and any other alphabet on them. If so, we just need to determine how the browsers can be convinced to use specific Shavian fonts when encountering Shavian characters on a web page. Again, I am willing to help people be able to do this.

--Scott
----- End of Original Message -----


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F hAv bIgun wxkiN on a /SEvWn t /rOmAn trAnzlitxEtP but hAv run intM pxoblemz
wiH hOmOgrAfs. hQ kAn F pRs a sentens suc Az "F alwEz bF mF pXz in pXz."?

v kPs, HXz a hOl rEnJ v [hOmOgrAfs] wen V stRt TiNkiN abQt it; wxdz HAt R
prOnQnsd H sEm but speld difxentlI. HX wut Fm konsxnd wiH. enI sugJeScunz?

if enIwun iz intxested, F hAv a wE t displE /SEvWn n /rOmAn letxz
sFmultEnIuslI in DOS! His mFt bI v Vs t sumwun VziN An Oldx kumpVtx. it
kunsists v a siNgul eksekVtabl fFul HAt prOvFdz bOT Alfubets.

.tom


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