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Joe wrote:
>>as a real simple example 1 atmosphere is a really easy concept to
>>convey, versus 101.325 kilopascals.
>
>
> That's true. I much prefer 1. But if you're using gas laws, you
> don't have to convert units. If you start with kP, you keep kP.
> And you have to remember, that if you change the unit for pressure,
> you have to change the constant. As far as the math, I prefer to
> work in Torrs (the same as milibars, I believe). Of course, I would
> rather not do the math at all. That's not really my area.

Most familiar to me is inches of mercury, which is used on all your
barometric weather equipment, aircraft altimeters, etc. FAA standard
pressure is 29.92 In. Hg, I don't know what it is in Kpa, and I'm a
pilot - though not current. For gas pressure other than atmospheric,
the common, everyday measurement is PSI - Pounds per Square Inch.

--
·???????? - Ethan


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From: Scott Harrison [mailto:scott@...]
Sent: 06 October 2004 18:01
To: shavian@...
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: SI



Note that just because a system uses 10 units to make a larger unit does not necessarily make it easier to use when used for measuring real world objects. Yes, the math is quite easy to perform because people only have to learn the prefixes for the various measurements to be able to determine what math to do. And the prefixes work across all the different types of measurements -- gram, meter, liter, etc. However, as a real simple example 1 atmosphere is a really easy concept to convey, versus 101.325 kilopascals.



If you are suggesting that it’s all about the right measurement for the job, 1 Bar is just as easy a concept to convey when it comes to atmospheric pressure. It is almost exactly the same as 1 Atmosphere (1 Bar = 1.98692 Atmospheres), BUT it is in line with the metric system – 1 bar is 100,000 Pascals. Why cling onto the Atmosphere when the Bar is more or less exactly the same, but perfectly compatible with the smaller metric units should you need to convert?



Hugh B


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ethan [mailto:ethanl@...]
> Sent: 09 October 2004 22:28
> To: shavian@...
> Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: SI
>
>
> Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
>
> > Changing to the metric system is definitely an improvement. The UK
> > decimalized its existing currency for the reason that base 10 is the
> > easiest system to work with. Why would they have gone to such lengths if
> > there hadn’t been promised improvements of use?
> >
> > And on the question of trading with others already using metric, that
> > would mean *the whole world*, since every other country internationally
> > (bar the few mentioned in an earlier post) uses the metric system for
> > all major commercial purposes.
> >
> > Does the US like having to convert everything when trading with everyone
> > else around the world?
> >
> > Hugh B
>
> As has been stated, not all measurements are in metric. Not even
> foreign trade is always done in metric measurements. Flexibility is
> better than rigidly adhering to one system.

Sure, not all measurements across the world are in metric. But the vast
majority are - the 'everyday' sort of measurements such as basic weight,
basic length, etc.

Regarding 'flexibility': assuming the population knew both measurement
systems equally well, why would you ever need pounds if you have kilograms?
Why would you ever need inches/feet/yards/miles if you have the metre? If
you have 1000 kilograms it's not difficult to just say "1 tonne", whereas if
you have 1000 pounds it's not so easy to convert to stones, because our
numbering system isn't base 14. Anybody can do base 10 math (it's just
adding or removing zeroes for heaven's sake) but base 14/16/etc would see
most people reaching for a calculator.

> BTW, what do you call British money less than a pound? We have 100
> cents to a dollar, 50 cents to a half-dollar, 25 cents to a quarter, ten
> cents to a dime, five cents to a nickle, one cent to a penny.

We have exactly the same system, apart from the naming of course. We also
have 20 pence as opposed to 25 cents.

You in the States have had the benefit of a base 10 money system since the
dollar was instituted. Would you prefer our old system of 12 pence to the
shilling, 20 shillings to the pound?

16 ounces to the pound, 14 pounds to the stone is just as dumb, as is 12
inches to the foot, 3 feet to the yard, 1760 yards to the mile (not to
mention 63360 inches to the mile), and just as deserving to be ditched for
the decimal equivalents everybody else in the world has been enjoying for a
long time.

> --
> ·???????? - Ethan

Hugh B

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Hugh Birkenhead explains the way English money used to be - I understood 12 pence to the shilling and 20 shillings to the pound, or maybe it was the other way round -

but when they got to half-a-crown (but no crown), and thirty bob -

and WHAT in the world was a guinea? I never did understand.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee and Gastonia, North Carolina USA

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On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 20:14:48 EDT, rsrichmond@... <rsrichmond@...> wrote:
> Hugh Birkenhead explains the way English money used to be - I understood 12
> pence to the shilling and 20 shillings to the pound, or maybe it was the
> other way round -

£1 = 20 s; 1 s = 12 d, so you got it right.

> but when they got to half-a-crown (but no crown),

I believe that there used to be a crown, worth 5/- (five shillings) --
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_%28coin%29 .

Half a crown was, of course, worth 2/6 ("two and six" or "two
shillings and sixpence"), and this measurement was used even after
crown and half-crown coins were no longer in use.

There were also florins, worth two shillings (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_coin_Florin ), and I remember a
holiday in England as a young child where my sister got a florin coin
in change at a shop; it was the same size as the 10p coin and could be
used interchangeable, since they were worth the same amount. (At that
time, there were also still half-penny coins [0.5p] in circulation;
they have since been withdrawn.)

> and thirty bob -

"bob" is simply a slang word for "shilling", so "thirty bob" = 1/10/-
in old currency and £1.50 in new.

> and WHAT in the world was a guinea? I never did understand.

Twenty-one shillings (21/-), or 1/1/- or £1.05. I believe it's still a
popular unit in auctions and when buying horses, though there are no
longer any guinea coins. Apparently, the difference in value from the
pound is due to the guinea having been a gold coin, while the pound or
sovereign was based on silver. See also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_coin_Guinea .

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_coinage for a general
discussion of British coinage, both pre-decimal and current.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>


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Hi Bob

The british had over 20 terms for various coin denominations, but
they all got dropped with decimalization. Lets leave british coins to
the collectors.
Crown and Guinea are no longer used.

A "crown" was originally five shillings, originally being a gold coin
issued during the reign of Henry VIII in 1544. It remained as a five
shilling piece or coin until decimalisation is 1971. It even survived
decimalisation to become a twenty five pence coin, although it is not
minted any more.

A Guinea was a gold coin that was worth 21 Shillings where as the
more usual pound (Sterling Silver) was only worth 20 Shillings. My
understanding is that the Rich people, (i.e. Nobility, Royalty) paid
in Guineas instead of pounds, to provide a built in tip for an
expected higher level of service.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Can we all get off this Metric kick.
Bad as the pre-metric measuring systems were, they were at least
internally consistent. The Roman Alphabet no longer comes close to
any kind of consistency. There are more exceptions than rules of
spelling. And there are a lot of "rules".



--- In shavian@..., RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> Hugh Birkenhead explains the way English money used to be - I
understood 12
> pence to the shilling and 20 shillings to the pound, or maybe it
was the other
> way round -
>
> but when they got to half-a-crown (but no crown), and thirty bob -
>
> and WHAT in the world was a guinea? I never did understand.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville, Tennessee and Gastonia, North Carolina USA





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--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> P.S. Can we all get off this Metric kick.
> Bad as the pre-metric measuring systems were, they were at least
> internally consistent. The Roman Alphabet no longer comes close to
> any kind of consistency. There are more exceptions than rules of
> spelling. And there are a lot of "rules".

Yes, let's leave this topic alone for now. And that was more
information about British money than I ever thought I'd care to
know -- interesting, though.





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Hi Everyone

I just saw some Info on the use of English in South Africa.
It indicates that Shavian would be a helpful adjunct to the average
South African.

Everyone know that English serves a culturally neutral business
language in India. It is also widely used in the cities where people
from differing cultures interact. It is the language of the
universities and schools. And so a lot of people in India have it
as their second language. In South Africa, the situation is more
complicated.
There are 45 Million people in South Africa.

English is generally understood across the country, being the most
commonly used language in official and commercial public life.
However, it ranks fifth out of the 11 as a spoken language.

According to the 2001 census isiZulu is much more common, because it
is the mother tongue of South Africa's roughly 11 million Zulus.
It is followed by isiXhosa at 17.6%, Afrikaans at 13.3%, Sepedi at
9.4%, and English at 8.2%.

Setswana is the mother tongue of 8.2% of South Africans, followed by
Sesotho at 7.9%. The remaining four official languages are spoken at
home by less than 5% of the population each.

IsiZulu, isiXhosa, SiSwati and isiNdebele are collectively referred
to as the Nguni languages, and have many similarities in syntax and
grammar, but are not mutually understandable.

The education is very poor in South Africa, especially among a large
group of illegal immigrants from the surrounding African countries.
Literacy rate varies by Ethnic group, although this is changing.
Right now the literacy rate is about 50% for Africans, 62%
for 'Coloureds'/Cape Malays, 69% Asians, 99% Whites (1990 WA) and
again this would be literacy in their regional language, not
necessarily English.

Afrikaans - initially spoken by descendants of the Dutch settlers,
and similar in character to Dutch and Flemish - is no longer the
exclusive language of Afrikaners. According to Statistics South
Africa, the majority of South Africans who speak Afrikaans as their
first language are not white. ('Coloureds', Cape Malays predominate)

South Africa's Asian population, most of whom are Indian in origin,
are largely English-speaking, although many still retain their
languages of origin as well. There is also a significant group of
Chinese South Africans, again also largely English-speaking but who
also retain their languages of origin as well.

A lingua franca called Tsotsi taal is also widely spoken, especially
in urban areas, mainly by males. It is a hybrid of Afrikaans and
English with some words from the African languages. It developed in
urban areas to make communication easier among all the different
language groups. It is a dynamic language, with new words and
phrases being invented daily.

Provincial variations
The languages you will hear most frequently spoken depend on where
in the country you are. IsiXhosa, for instance, is spoken by more
than 80% of South Africans in the Eastern Cape, and almost 80% in
KwaZulu-Natal speak isiZulu. The latter is also the most frequently
spoken home language in Gauteng, but at a much smaller percentage.
In Cape Town and the south coast, Afrikaans is the most popular
language.

Languages are regionalized, but in the big cities you will hear much
more English and Tsotsi, with Dutch Afrikaans being more important
in Capetown.

Predominant languages by province are:

Eastern Cape: isiXhosa (83.4%), followed by Afrikaans
Free State: Sesotho (64.4%), followed by Afrikaans
Gauteng: isiZulu (21.5%), followed by Afrikaans, Sesotho and English
KwaZulu-Natal: isiZulu (80.9%), followed by English
Mpumalanga: SiSwati (30.8%), followed by isiZulu and isiNdebele
Northern Cape: Afrikaans (68%), followed by Setswana
Limpopo: Sesotho sa Leboa (52.1%), followed by Xitsonga and
Tshivenda (Smaller Tribal Languages)
North West: Setswana (65.4%), followed by Afrikaans
Western Cape: Afrikaans (55.3%), followed by English.

Anyway, you can see that the language situation is a real hodgepodge
in South Africa,
and that people are gravitating to the use of English and Tsotsi
taal, just because they are less exclusive and less tribal.
Unfortunately, Tsotsi taal doesn't have a written tradition, so
people have to suffer with Spelling complexities of the English T.O.

The Shavian Phonetic Alphabet has the benefit, of enabling the
writing of any combination of Tsotsi taal, English or Afrikaans, in
combination or separately.


Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Anyone with some current familarity with S.A. who can provide
some feedback.






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--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone
>
> I just saw some Info on the use of English in South Africa.
> It indicates that Shavian would be a helpful adjunct to the
average
> South African.

Very Interesting. I've been trying to find more specific
information about the phonology of these languages to determine
whether they can be accurately represented with Shavian.

I haven't found much, but it seems that most of the languages of
South Africa have standardized orthographies and don't need any
change. If Shavian were used to write English, though, it could
help to distinguish it from the others. I'm not really sure about
Tsotsi Taal and other urban dialects, but they don't seem to be
broad standards outside of the cities where they originated.
English is probably the most widely-understood language in S.A..





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Hi Joe

Because of the difficulties in providing a standard education, when
every S.A. province has a different Major Language, and the low
literacy rate overall, I would expect that S.A. has a large
population of people with some familarity with spoken English or
Tsotsi Taal, but without competent English literacy.

The Shaw Alphabet would be a useful Stopgap. Until recently, most
Black South Africans were more likely to be educated in Afrikaans
rather than English.
I see this as a rather good place to introduce the Shavian Alphabet.

Regards, Paul V.
_______________attached__________________

--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Everyone
> >
> > I just saw some Info on the use of English in South Africa.
> > It indicates that Shavian would be a helpful adjunct to the
> average
> > South African.
>
> Very Interesting. I've been trying to find more specific
> information about the phonology of these languages to determine
> whether they can be accurately represented with Shavian.
>
> I haven't found much, but it seems that most of the languages of
> South Africa have standardized orthographies and don't need any
> change. If Shavian were used to write English, though, it could
> help to distinguish it from the others. I'm not really sure about
> Tsotsi Taal and other urban dialects, but they don't seem to be
> broad standards outside of the cities where they originated.
> English is probably the most widely-understood language in S.A..





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