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From: Joe
Date: 2004-10-13 14:15:45 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: South Africa -> Shavian
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--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> Hi Joe
>
> Because of the difficulties in providing a standard education,
when
> every S.A. province has a different Major Language, and the low
> literacy rate overall, I would expect that S.A. has a large
> population of people with some familarity with spoken English or
> Tsotsi Taal, but without competent English literacy.
From what I've read, Tsotsi Taal is apparently just one of many
urban dialects, of which most are restricted to their city of origin
and carry distinct cultural identies. The only neutral languages in
S.A. appear to be English and Afrikaans (to some degree). They're a
good place to start.
> The Shaw Alphabet would be a useful Stopgap. Until recently, most
> Black South Africans were more likely to be educated in Afrikaans
> rather than English.
> I see this as a rather good place to introduce the Shavian
Alphabet.
As English is becoming more common in S.A., introducing Shavian
would probably help to increase literacy. I support the idea
entirely. Let's stay away from Afrikaans, though. It is a Germanic
language, related to Dutch (I think), so it has some similarities
with English. But it's my opinion that we should keep using Shavian
for English rather than adapting it for other languages.
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-10-13 15:43:07 #
Subject: [shavian] More about South Africa -> Shavian
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Hi Joe
I agree.
English is the main focus of Shavian.
However, English does tend to borrow or absorb Foreign Words from
the surrounding or local Languages, and I just wished to point out
that Shavian can write the vast majority of the Afrikaans words,
phonetically. I don't know how well it would do with loanwords from
the Zulu or the Xhosa languages.
As for using Shavian to write words from Tsotsi taal.
"Tsotsi taal is a patois of Sophiatown (Little Harlem) an
influential suburb of Johannesburg. (Like the New York of S.A.)
It was spiced up with words borrowed from all nine African languages
in South Africa, with sweet nothings from French, like cherie, pithy
lines from Hollywood films like Street With No Name and Scarface,
and even a word or two of Yiddish. While much of tsotsitaal was
borrowed from Afrikaans, on the streets of what the guys called
Softtown they played around with the meaning and order of words
until they had broken most of the rules of the language."
I expect most loanwords from Tsotsi taal, like the words of
Afrikaans could be adequately rendered into Shavian Script
phonetically.
This is important, because the people in S.A. who would be writing
English with Shavian, would be the same kind of people who be using
the street slang derived from Tsotsi taal. I believe the Shaw
Alphabet can handle the odd Loanword with out compromising its
integrity.
But in the same sense that we mark Names with a Namer Dot because
they sometimes fall outside the boundaries of easily recognizable
English words; We might also mark non-English Loanwords with an
initial asterisk. Once they are absorbed fully and are recognised as
an English word, we would drop the asterisk.
Regards, Paul V.
____________attached_____________________________
--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Joe
> >
> > Because of the difficulties in providing a standard education,
> when
> > every S.A. province has a different Major Language, and the low
> > literacy rate overall, I would expect that S.A. has a large
> > population of people with some familarity with spoken English or
> > Tsotsi Taal, but without competent English literacy.
>
> From what I've read, Tsotsi Taal is apparently just one of
many
> urban dialects, of which most are restricted to their city of
origin
> and carry distinct cultural identies. The only neutral languages
in
> S.A. appear to be English and Afrikaans (to some degree). They're
a
> good place to start.
>
> > The Shaw Alphabet would be a useful Stopgap. Until recently,
most
> > Black South Africans were more likely to be educated in
Afrikaans
> > rather than English.
> > I see this as a rather good place to introduce the Shavian
> Alphabet.
>
> As English is becoming more common in S.A., introducing Shavian
> would probably help to increase literacy. I support the idea
> entirely. Let's stay away from Afrikaans, though. It is a
Germanic
> language, related to Dutch (I think), so it has some similarities
> with English. But it's my opinion that we should keep using
Shavian
> for English rather than adapting it for other languages.
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From: Scott Harrison
Date: 2004-10-13 17:24:04 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] More about South Africa -> Shavian
Toggle Shavian
On Oct 13, 2004, at 16:39, paul vandenbrink wrote:
This is important, because the people in S.A. who would be writing
English with Shavian, would be the same kind of people who be using
the street slang derived from Tsotsi taal. I believe the Shaw
Alphabet can handle the odd Loanword with out compromising its
integrity.
But in the same sense that we mark Names with a Namer Dot because
they sometimes fall outside the boundaries of easily recognizable
English words; We might also mark non-English Loanwords with an
initial asterisk. Once they are absorbed fully and are recognised as
an English word, we would drop the asterisk.
I suggest that English be written in Shavian, even words that are derived from a foreign language (assuming they are considered to be an English word now). However, any foreign language I suggest should be written in its native script -- so e.g., French would be written in Latin. I have done this with the Swineherd story on my website. You can see the German in Latin in the middle of the English in Shavian.
I would not suggest having other languages like Tsotsi taal or Esperanto written in Shavian.
--
·???????? ·???????????? Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
From: Joe
Date: 2004-10-14 20:33:14 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: More about South Africa -> Shavian
Toggle Shavian
That's exactly my point. I have been looking at Swahili, though,
and it appears to me that Shavian could come very close, with the
addition of kh and gh letters. I don't suggest imposing Shavian on
other languages that have decent spelling already, but I thought it
was interesting to note that, if it weren't for the lack of these
letters, Shavian would do a better job there, too. But I still
think we need a way to write these languages, at least for use in
pronunciation guides.
--- In shavian@..., Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
> I suggest that English be written in Shavian, even words
that are
> derived from a foreign language (assuming they are considered to
be an
> English word now). However, any foreign language I suggest should
be
> written in its native script -- so e.g., French would be written
in
> Latin. I have done this with the Swineherd story on my website.
You
> can see the German in Latin in the middle of the English in
Shavian.
>
> I would not suggest having other languages like Tsotsi taal
or
> Esperanto written in Shavian.
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-10-15 16:43:52 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: More about South Africa -> Shavian
Toggle Shavian
Hi Scott
I agree with you in principle.
I just think we have to consider 4 situations, when we decide which
words get transliterated in Shavian, and which words will remain in
their original script. I have not even figured out yet what to do
when we transliterate common English Acronyms (i.e. SCUBA, U.N.,
U.S.A, E.U., NATO, NASA, I.O.U., O.K., O.J. B.O., S.O.S.)into
Shavian.
Thank G-d, they are all marked with a Namer Dot, which warns us that
they are not necessarily common English words.
But lets look at what we have more or less agreed on for the 4 main
categories of words.
1. All regular English words, including accepted foreign loan words
and slang, (i.e. detente, laisse-faire, mayday, tutsi, chechnen,
sayonara, aloha, sushi, Mao-Tse-Tung, Beijing, garburator, parkade,
chesterfield, gatorade) would be written in Shavian.
2. Foreign words and slang, not normally recognized in English would
be written in the appropriate Foreign Alphabet. Usually the regular
Roman Alphabet.
3. Foreign Slang borrowed from other languages, that would be
recognizable in English would be written in Shavian.
4. Foreign Personal Names would be anglicized and written in
Shavian.
If the language doesn't permit easy anglicization, as in the case of
Chinese, the person might take on an alternate English name. This is
actually the custom of Chinese people from Hong Kong.
Unfortunately, Tsotsitaal in S.A. is a pidgin or patchwork of words,
mostly slang from a number of languages. It is written in the Roman
Alphabet, but the spelling is haphazard. It doesn't have a standard
spelling.
It is more of a street language and is not normally written down.
However, I suspect that, if there is no standard spelling available,
Shavian would end up being used to write some of this slang. As we
can not really prevent people from taking advantage of the phonetic
nature of Shavian, perhaps we should a least get them to mark it as
non-standard slang (Asterisk), so the rest of us English speakers
will not trip over it, unwarned.
Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
P.S. I am just being practical about a less than ideal situation.
It is really hard to say exactly when and how Foreign Loanwords
becomes part of English.
--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> That's exactly my point. I have been looking at Swahili, though,
> and it appears to me that Shavian could come very close, with the
> addition of kh and gh letters. I don't suggest imposing Shavian
on
> other languages that have decent spelling already, but I thought
it
> was interesting to note that, if it weren't for the lack of these
> letters, Shavian would do a better job there, too. But I still
> think we need a way to write these languages, at least for use in
> pronunciation guides.
>
> --- In shavian@..., Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
> > I suggest that English be written in Shavian, even words
> that are
> > derived from a foreign language (assuming they are considered to
> be an
> > English word now). However, any foreign language I suggest
should
> be
> > written in its native script -- so e.g., French would be written
> in
> > Latin. I have done this with the Swineherd story on my
website.
> You
> > can see the German in Latin in the middle of the English in
> Shavian.
> >
> > I would not suggest having other languages like Tsotsi taal
> or
> > Esperanto written in Shavian.
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Date: 2004-10-20 17:58:29 #
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-10-21 12:02:15 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: More about South Africa -> Shavian
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Hi Joe
You are right that for literate people it is very important to have a
comparison chart, to help you transliterate words from one version of
the alphabet to another. However if the student is not even literate
in his own language, then we have to start from the beginning anyway
to teach Shaw Literacy.
As for Swahili in S.A., it is a very new thing. Interest in Swahili
only started after the end of Aparteid. It is important in East
Africa. About 50 million people in East and Central Africa,
particularly in Tanzania, Zanzibar and Kenya, all speak Swahili. In
addition, many people in Uganda, Somalia, Mozambique, Malawi, Rwanda,
Burundi, Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo speak Swahili as
a first or second language.
People in S.A. if they are not already literate in English are most
likely to be literate in Afrikaans.
Lets look at English's biggest competitor as a language of the cities
in Afrikaans.
Here is some discussion on the roles of English and Afrikaans in
South Africa. I will provide some background info as most people
assume Afrikaans is just Dutch with a funny accent. Like an American
versus a British Accented English. No such luck. It is not so simple.
English is the first language of more than 3,500,000 people in South
Africa, around 9% of the population . English use is rapidly growing
in comparison to Afrikaans, but the number of people speaking
Afrikaans is still much greater in S.A. as a whole.
Afrikaans is the first language of approximately 65% of South
Africa's whites, and over 90% of the "Coloured" (mixed-race)
population. The majority of black South Africans generally still
speak one of the African Bantu Languages. Swahili is not commonly
used and these older languages tend reinforce existing Tribal
divisions.
Only a third of South Africans speaking an European Language, have
English as their first language.
Large numbers of black, Asian, and English South Africans speak
Afrikaans as a second language. It is also widely spoken in Namibia,
where it has had constitutional recognition as a national, not
official, language since independence in 1990. Prior to independence,
Afrikaans, along with German, had equal status as an official
language. There is a much smaller number of Afrikaans speakers among
Zimbabwe's white minority, but most left the country in 1980.
It will take another generation to see how the Language situation
stabilizes in S.A. Right now the country is in the middle of some
extremely rapid Social changes. English has a higher status for the
Black Majority Population. It is the main means of communication in
urban areas. Many second generation people from India, Portugal,
Germany, and Greece speak English as first language.
Afrikaans is linguistically closely related to 17th century Dutch,
and to modern Dutch by extension. It is similar to Flemish. Speakers
of each language can make themselves easily understood by speakers of
the other. It is much less closely related to German, and
English.The Cape Dutch or Afrikaans vocabulary diverged from the
Dutch vocabulary spoken in the Netherlands over time as Cape Dutch
absorbed words from other European settlers, East Indian slaves, and
native African languages.
The first Afrikaans grammars and dictionaries were not published
until 1875 by the Genootskap vir Regte Afrikaanders (Society for Real
Afrikaners) in Cape Town. Official government proclamation of
Afrikaans as a distinct language from Dutch came in 1925. The
official languages of the Union of South Africa were English and
Dutch until that time. Dutch was replaced as an official language by
Afrikaans.
Besides vocabulary, the most striking difference from Dutch in
Afrikaans is its regularized and simplified grammar,and its
simplified pronunciation and spelling which is likely the result of
mutual interference with some earlier creole language based on the
Dutch language spoken by the relatively large number of non-Dutch
speakers (Khoisan, Khoikhoi, German, French, Malay, and speakers of
different African languages) during the formation period of the
language in the second half of the 17th century. It contains many
words loaned from Indonesian languages, especially Malay (the oldest
known written Afrikaans uses Arabic letters and was intended for use
among Cape Town's Muslims),
Remember, back in 1710, slaves and imported indentured workers in
S.A. significantly outnumbered the free Dutch settlers.
Most linguistics scholars today are almost certain that Afrikaans has
been influenced by a creole language based on the South-Holland Dutch
dialect. It is very hard finding out how this influence took place,
since there is no written material about this S.A. creole or pidgin
from the time. And there are almost no sample sentences written in
the Dutch-based creole language or Proto-Afrikaans.
There are only a few sentences found in unrelated Travel books often
written by non-speakers.
Afrikaans Orthography
Written Afrikaans differs from Dutch in that the spelling reflects a
phonetically simplified language, and so many consonants are dropped.
The spelling is also a lot more phonetical than the Dutch
counterpart. A notable feature is the indefinite article, which
is "'n", not "een" as in Dutch. "A book" is "'n Boek", whereas in
Dutch it would be "Een boek". (Note that "'n" is still allowed in
Dutch; Afrikaans uses only "'n" where Dutch uses it next to "een".
When letters are dropped an apostrophe is mandatory.) Other features
include the use of 's' instead of 'z', hence South Africa in
Afrikaans is written as Suid-Afrika, whereas in Dutch it is Zuid-
Afrika. (This accounts for ZA being used as South Africa's internet
top level domain.) The Dutch letter combination 'ij' is written
as 'y', except where it replaces the Dutch suffix -lijk, as in
waarschijnlijk = waarskynlik.
Afrikaans has been influential in the development of South African
English. Many Afrikaans loanwords have found their way into South
African English, such as "veld", "braai", "boomslang", "shambeen"
and "lekker". A few words in standard English are derived from
Afrikaans, such as "trek", "spoor", and, of course, apartheid.
In 1976, rioting broke out in Soweto as the result of the apartheid
government's requirement that Afrikaans rather than English be used
as the medium of instruction in black schools. See History of South
Africa.
Under South Africa's multiracial Constitution of 1994, Afrikaans
remained an official language, but there were now nine other official
languages with which it now had equal status. The new dispensation
meant that Afrikaans was often downgraded by, in favour of English,
or to accommodate the new official languages. In 1996, for example,
the South African Broadcasting Corporation reduced the amount of
television airtime in Afrikaans, while South African Airways dropped
its Afrikaans name Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens from its livery.
Similarly, South Africa's diplomatic missions overseas now only
display the name of the country in English and their host country's
language, but not in Afrikaans.
Although these moves have, understandably, angered Afrikaans
speakers, the language has remained strong, with newspapers and
magazines in the language continuing to have wide circulations, and a
pay-TV channel in Afrikaans called KykNet being launched in 1999.
Afrikaans has the benefit of being a simpler languange than English
to learn, with simpler grammar, pronunciation and spelling than
English.
It will take another generation to see how the Language situation
stabilizes in S.A. Right now the country is in the middle of some
extremely rapid Social changes. The Shaw Alphabet might be a
contributing factor in enabling a larger percentage of the adult
population becoming literate in English.
It has the additional benefit of providing a clear distinction
between Afrikaans spelling and English Spelling. Because of a shared
history, many English and Afrikaans words are spelled the same even
tho they may have a different vowel pronunciation.
A sentence that is written the same in Afrikaans as in English:
Was my pen in my hand?
It has the same meaning but sounds quite different, even tho it is
written with the same letters.
Quite confusing, eh.
Another good reason for switching to English written in the Shavian
Alphabet.
Please let me know if you have any questions?
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> That's exactly my point. I have been looking at Swahili, though,
> and it appears to me that Shavian could come very close, with the
> addition of kh and gh letters. I don't suggest imposing Shavian on
> other languages that have decent spelling already, but I thought it
> was interesting to note that, if it weren't for the lack of these
> letters, Shavian would do a better job there, too. But I still
> think we need a way to write these languages, at least for use in
> pronunciation guides.
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From: Joe
Date: 2004-10-21 16:43:30 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: More about South Africa -> Shavian
Toggle Shavian
--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Joe
> You are right that for literate people it is very important to
have a
> comparison chart, to help you transliterate words from one version
of
> the alphabet to another. However if the student is not even
literate
> in his own language, then we have to start from the beginning
anyway
> to teach Shaw Literacy.
The comparison chart wasn't my idea, but it sounds good to
me :). Unless you're referring to the pronunciation guides, that is.
> It will take another generation to see how the Language situation
> stabilizes in S.A. Right now the country is in the middle of some
> extremely rapid Social changes. The Shaw Alphabet might be a
> contributing factor in enabling a larger percentage of the adult
> population becoming literate in English.
> It has the additional benefit of providing a clear distinction
> between Afrikaans spelling and English Spelling. Because of a
shared
> history, many English and Afrikaans words are spelled the same
even
> tho they may have a different vowel pronunciation.
>
> A sentence that is written the same in Afrikaans as in English:
> Was my pen in my hand?
> It has the same meaning but sounds quite different, even tho it is
> written with the same letters.
> Quite confusing, eh.
Indeed. This may be the best reason to use Shavian in S.A.
But I don't know anyone from S.A. I'd like to hear South African
English spoken, since I don't know much about the dialect/accent.
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Date: 2004-10-22 03:07:21 #
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-10-22 15:57:43 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: More about South Africa -> Shavian
Toggle Shavian
Hi Joe
Sorry, I was talking about the comparison chart that usually
introduces a lot of the pronunciation guides, that is.
Literacy is much less than 50% in South Africa, for people whose
mother language is not English or Afrikaans.
The new government is working very hard to improve early education,
but it is going to take time to create a fully literate modern
population.
I agree there are many cognant reasons to use Shavian in S.A.
Especially as they have a huge committment to increase English
speaking utilization in the population.
Maybe I can post some comments on some of S.A. Education and News
boards to get a little more interest going.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. We have a lot of South African Expatriates here in Toronto, and
I am quite familar with the accent. A lot of them seem to have run
away from a high crime rate and political uncertainty that occurred
with the transfer of power from the Apartheid Government.
Anyway the S.A. accent seems to be a softer clearer version of a
British RP pronunciation with some vestigal Rhotic pronunciation. It
is very distinctive, but quite easy to understand.
Easier than RP.
They do use the same broad a sound as the British BBC or RP accent.
grass -> gross
check out http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/accent.htm if you want
to hear some sample sentences.
--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Joe
> > You are right that for literate people it is very important to
> have a
> > comparison chart, to help you transliterate words from one
version
> of
> > the alphabet to another. However if the student is not even
> literate
> > in his own language, then we have to start from the beginning
> anyway
> > to teach Shaw Literacy.
>
> The comparison chart wasn't my idea, but it sounds good to
> me :). Unless you're referring to the pronunciation guides, that
is.
>
> > It will take another generation to see how the Language
situation
> > stabilizes in S.A. Right now the country is in the middle of some
> > extremely rapid Social changes. The Shaw Alphabet might be a
> > contributing factor in enabling a larger percentage of the adult
> > population becoming literate in English.
> > It has the additional benefit of providing a clear distinction
> > between Afrikaans spelling and English Spelling. Because of a
> shared
> > history, many English and Afrikaans words are spelled the same
> even
> > tho they may have a different vowel pronunciation.
> >
> > A sentence that is written the same in Afrikaans as in English:
> > Was my pen in my hand?
> > It has the same meaning but sounds quite different, even tho it
is
> > written with the same letters.
> > Quite confusing, eh.
>
> Indeed. This may be the best reason to use Shavian in S.A.
> But I don't know anyone from S.A. I'd like to hear South African
> English spoken, since I don't know much about the dialect/accent.
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