Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hi Joe
I think it just comes up with the advanced learner's dictionary by
default as the interactive. But I think all the listed dictionaries
have an interactive interface.

--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> I found it. I was just wondering if the interactive dictionary
was
> different, since I didn't see that anywhere.
>






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hey all

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I posted this on shavian, if you dont want to be a member anymore just email shavian-unsubscribe@...





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Paul,

I think it could be much easier that you describe in a one sound per
symbol system. Here is why:

At the University of Chicago Lab school, 5 and 6 year old children
were simply given the Unifon sound-symbol correspondence chart and
told to start writing notes to each other. Some preschool kids
picked up the code in a half hour and started helping their peers.
It took about 3 weeks for all the kids to learn the code and about 3
months to overlearn it. All were code literate at the end of 3
months.

Laubach demonstrated that any highly phonemic writing system can be
learned in 3 months. So it is not unusual that English could also be
learned in 3 months if it were written in Shavian or some other
highly phonemic code. Lauback developed literacy materials for over
300 languages.

What is achieved is code literacy, not literacy in the traditional
code. All of the children mastered Unifon in a 3 month writing to
read program. They could write any word they could pronounce and
pronounce any word written in the Unifon code.

Laubach's test was the ability to read a newspaper. The Unifon test
would be reading a transcribed newspaper but understanding would be
limited by the fact that some words in the article would not be in
the children's speech vocabulary. They might be able to read aloud
the transcribed news, but they would not necessarily be able to
understand what they were saying.

The key to over-learning the code is the writing to read approach
and the emphasis of peer to pear learning. You do not need to
explain why. Learning 40 sound-signs permit you to express yourself
and write notes to your friends.

For a Shavian - Unifon correspondence table see
http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/14-unifon-ipa-shavian16.gif

The whole article can be found at
http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shavian-short.html

For another article on Shavian see
http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j31/shawbett.html

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink" wrote:

> I found some instructions on teaching Children an new Alphabet in
4 steps. Any comments or corrections?

> $ Steps to Literacy

> 1. If the class is monolingual then a good way to start is by
giving them the corresponding sounds in their mother tongue (if
there is a contrast - it makes your task even simpler!- tell them
that's why they need to learn it! At any rate, try just one or two
sounds per class until you have covered all 46 Basic Shaw letters.

> http://www.developingteachers.com/phonology/sound_activities1.htm
> Interesting ideas for teaching phonetics





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Paul, Star, Hugh, and others,

To avoid spam, usual solution is to close the group and require
people to apply for membership. I have done this with one group and
we have been 100% successful.

Spammers do not go to the trouble of explaining why they want to
join the group. This is part of the application process.

Otherwise, you have to ban those who post an off-topic message and
delete the spam. They sometimes come back under a new alias. The
rate of spamming drops to about one or two off-topic message per
quarter. The Shavian group seems to get up to 3 a week.

As I understand it, the person who first moderated Shavian cannot be
found and so it is not possible for him to shift moderators.

I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the best
name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.

The problem is that the existing Shavian archive will eventually be
lost.

Perhaps someone can volunteer to go back through the archive at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian
and save all of the good posts.

--Steve


--- "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:

> Hi Everybody

> I don't really see the problem. Create a new Yahoo group called
> ShawAlef; and if that gets spammed we go to ShawBet. We put a
> note in Shavianredirecting New users to ShawAlef.
> Can we put forward 2 names together for Moderator, so that G-d
> Forbid, if someone dies or disappears, we can still keep the
> ShawAlef Yahoo Group going.
> I hope Hugh will be one of the Moderators.

> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. We can leave the old Shavian group alive while we switch
> current activity to the Yahoo ShawAlef group.






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On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:54:05 -0000, Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:
>
> To avoid spam, usual solution is to close the group and require
> people to apply for membership.

Um, but this requires the group's moderator (or whatever it's called)
to do so, no? And the moderator for this group is MIA. Otherwise I'm
fairly confident something similar would have been done already.

> Otherwise, you have to ban those who post an off-topic message

I imagine that again, only a moderator can do this.

> and delete the spam.

ditto ditto.

> As I understand it, the person who first moderated Shavian cannot be
> found and so it is not possible for him to shift moderators.

That is my understanding.

> I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the best
> name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.

Meh. I'd prefer something on shavian.org but I believe mailing lists
there have no provision for web archives, which is something that
people value, I take it. I'll go with what other people vote for,
though.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>


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On Nov 9, 2004, at 07:00, Philip Newton wrote:




On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:54:05 -0000, Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:



I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the best
name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.



Meh. I'd prefer something on shavian.org but I believe mailing lists
there have no provision for web archives, which is something that
people value, I take it. I'll go with what other people vote for,
though.




If we set up a mailing list on shavian.org it will be using mailman, which does provide for web-based archives. What I do not believe it provides is a way to post a mail message from a webpage. However, that may have changed in more recent versions (which I am not currently running but may be able to upgrade). Also, what I do not want to set up on my server is a general ftp upload capability. If there is a clamoring for being able to upload things using ftp I may research how to do it as securely as possible. But that will be a more longterm issue.

--
·???????? ·???????????? Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

That's an interesting article. I couldn't read the keyboard Unifon
or the others, even though I've studied them a little, but I breezed
right through the Shavian at a rate that surprized even myself,
until I got to the word "appreciated", which is not spelled the way
I pronounce it.
I've found that Shavian was easier to learn than I first expected.

--- In shavian@..., "Steve Bett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> I think it could be much easier that you describe in a one sound
per
> symbol system. Here is why:
>
> At the University of Chicago Lab school, 5 and 6 year old children
> were simply given the Unifon sound-symbol correspondence chart and
> told to start writing notes to each other. Some preschool kids
> picked up the code in a half hour and started helping their peers.
> It took about 3 weeks for all the kids to learn the code and about
3
> months to overlearn it. All were code literate at the end of 3
> months.
>
> Laubach demonstrated that any highly phonemic writing system can
be
> learned in 3 months. So it is not unusual that English could also
be
> learned in 3 months if it were written in Shavian or some other
> highly phonemic code. Lauback developed literacy materials for
over
> 300 languages.
>
> What is achieved is code literacy, not literacy in the traditional
> code. All of the children mastered Unifon in a 3 month writing to
> read program. They could write any word they could pronounce and
> pronounce any word written in the Unifon code.
>
> Laubach's test was the ability to read a newspaper. The Unifon
test
> would be reading a transcribed newspaper but understanding would
be
> limited by the fact that some words in the article would not be in
> the children's speech vocabulary. They might be able to read
aloud
> the transcribed news, but they would not necessarily be able to
> understand what they were saying.
>
> The key to over-learning the code is the writing to read approach
> and the emphasis of peer to pear learning. You do not need to
> explain why. Learning 40 sound-signs permit you to express
yourself
> and write notes to your friends.
>
> For a Shavian - Unifon correspondence table see
> http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/14-unifon-ipa-shavian16.gif
>
> The whole article can be found at
> http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shavian-short.html
>
> For another article on Shavian see
> http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j31/shawbett.html





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Hi Steve, Scott and Phil
Again I don't see what the problem is.
Why does the solution have to be so complicated?
We can have 2 Yahoo Groups, Shavian and ShawAlphabet.
We retain the old Yahoo group for Archive purposes and as a Spam trap.
We can't get rid of it anyway, so we might as well keep
it and keep an Eye on it and occasionally redirect people to the
new active Shavian Group (ShawAlphabet or Shawbet).
Maybe Scott can add a new link to the new Group on the portal page
for Shavian.org and mark the old Yahoo group as inactive.
Very little work involved doing it that way.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Nov 9, 2004, at 07:00, Philip Newton wrote:
>
> >
> > On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:54:05 -0000, Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the
best
> >> name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.
> >
> > Meh. I'd prefer something on shavian.org but I believe mailing
lists
> > there have no provision for web archives, which is something that
> > people value, I take it. I'll go with what other people vote for,
> > though.






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FAQ - Shavian Additional Glosses and comments welcomed:

What is the Shaw or Shavian alphabet?
by Paul Vanderbrink [PV] Glosses by Steve Bett [SB]

PV: The Shaw alphabet is a modern, phonetically accurate replacement for the old Roman alphabet to write English. The Shaw alphabet has been designed to write modern English more quickly and effectively. The Roman alphabet was designed specifically for Latin, over 2,600 years ago, and has become the alphabet of choice for hundreds of languages. It became the customary alphabet for written English, as Latin was the language of education, at the time, that the writing of English.

SB: The Shaw alphabet is a non-Roman, near 100% phonemic, symbols system suitable for writing English as it is spoken.
Systems with one symbol per sound and no silent letters are more compact and faster to write. Shaw saw it as a parallel alphabet which would win converts due to its superiority. Shaw recommended a new set of letters so the new spellings would not be considered uneducated or ugly.


Who created the Shaw alphabet?

SB: Shaw specified the linguistic requirements for an alphabet code as early as 1941. He wanted one unequivocal symbol for 42 English speech sounds and he did not want it to be confused with traditional spelling. His model was phonemic shorthand. In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to fund the development of a new alphabet. The will was contested and only a small sum [less than $20,000] was made available to carry out Shaw's proposal. The group that controlled the funds decided that the best they could do with such limited funds was to run a contest. The alphabet displayed on this page was designed by Kingsley Read, the winner of the Shaw alphabet competition.

PV: A contest was announced specifying the linguistic requirements, in 1958. Four contestants submitted alphabet schemes that met or surpassed the requirements. The Shaw Alphabet was created from an amalgam of these 4 proposals. Kingsley Read, an architect and designer, provided the majority of the design. He also created a script or cursive version of the Shaw alphabet called Quickscript.
Further revisions to remove some confusing spiral letters and to streamline an overly complex vowel design were successful and incorporated in this book by the author.

SB: In 1941, Shaw specified the goal for his proposed British alphabet. He himself used Pitman shorthand and was familiar with the advantages of phonemic writing. Pitman, however, was not linear and difficult to print. Shaw was impressed with Sweet's "current" linear shorthand but objected to the focus on abbreviation.

Kingsley Read was impressed with the essay which appeared as the preface to the book, The Miraculous Birth of Language, and contacted Shaw. He showed Shaw his early attempts to build a phonemic notation to match Shaw's requirements. Shaw encouraged his efforts.

In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to advancing his linguistic ideas. The will was challenged by lawyers representing the British Museum and other charities on the grounds that you can't leave money to an idea. Shaw's fortune did not amount to much until the spectacular success of My Fair Lady. Pitman negotiated a deal whereby a small amount of the fortune, about £8000, would be used to fulfill the terms of the will.


Both vowel letters and vowel markers are part of the Shaw alphabet, but they have different functions. The Shaw Letters indicate the exact vowel sounds for the key vowels of a written word. The Shaw Vowel Marker indicates just the kind of vowel used in the written word and how the internal vowels hold the syllables together.

The main or Primary Shaw vowel letters each represents a specific vowel sound preceded by a Glottal Stop in order to make it emphatic. A Shaw vowel marker indicates the presence of a vowel, without an associated Glottal Stop. A vowel marker does not indicate the specific vowel. It indicates the type of vowel. For example, whether it is a long, short, double, half sized vowel or Schwa. A vowel marker does not necessarily give an exact pronunciation. There may be as many as 6 different vowel sounds, represented by any one particular vowel marker. Or as few a one vowel sound in the case of a Schwa.

The Roman alphabet uses over 30 of vowel letters and vowel letter combinations made up from "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", "w" and "y" and also adds the silent "e" to the end of the word to indicate many of the various vowel sounds used by English. Unfortunately, all of those various vowel letters and vowel letter combinations are not logical and do not consistently represent the same sound. The Shaw alphabet uses a system, that can handle a wider variety of vowel sounds and their combinations and represent them accurately and consistently.


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Steve Bett wrote:

> To avoid spam, usual solution is to close the group and require
> people to apply for membership. I have done this with one group and
> we have been 100% successful.

By all means this is the best solution. I lived through this in another
group, and indeed it helped. An alternative for application can be
moderating the pending messages of new members, and to accept or reject them
(together with banning the sender). In this case only the moderator will get
spam, and do filtering manually.

> I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the best
> name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.

Though for most time I'm just a lurker here, I would eagerly join it.

-- Isaac



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