Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

paul vandenbrink wrote:
> Why does the solution have to be so complicated?
> We can have 2 Yahoo Groups, Shavian and ShawAlphabet.
> We retain the old Yahoo group for Archive purposes and as a Spam trap.
> We can't get rid of it anyway, so we might as well keep it
> and keep an Eye on it and occasionally redirect people to the
> new active Shavian Group (ShawAlphabet or Shawbet).

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Cheers,
Philip


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Very good, very good. Combine what you have and answer some of the
other usual questions, and I think we'll have a pretty darned good faq.

I supposed I need to do a little more shaw reading, and
transliterating. Hey, I'm working on it!

--Star
--- stbetta@... wrote:

> FAQ - Shavian Additional Glosses and comments welcomed:
> What is the Shaw or Shavian alphabet?
> by Paul Vanderbrink [PV] Glosses by Steve Bett [SB]
> PV: The Shaw alphabet is a modern, phonetically accurate replacement
> for the
> old Roman alphabet to write English. The Shaw alphabet has been
> designed to
> write modern English more quickly and effectively. The Roman alphabet
> was
> designed specifically for Latin, over 2,600 years ago, and has become
> the alphabet
> of choice for hundreds of languages. It became the customary alphabet
> for
> written English, as Latin was the language of education, at the time,
> that the
> writing of English.
> SB: The Shaw alphabet is a non-Roman, near 100% phonemic, symbols
> system
> suitable for writing English as it is spoken.
> Systems with one symbol per sound and no silent letters are more
> compact and
> faster to write. Shaw saw it as a parallel alphabet which would win
> converts
> due to its superiority. Shaw recommended a new set of letters so the
> new
> spellings would not be considered uneducated or ugly.
>
> Who created the Shaw alphabet?
> SB: Shaw specified the linguistic requirements for an alphabet code
> as early
> as 1941. He wanted one unequivocal symbol for 42 English speech
> sounds and he
> did not want it to be confused with traditional spelling. His model
> was
> phonemic shorthand. In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to
> fund the
> development of a new alphabet. The will was contested and only a
> small sum [less
> than $20,000] was made available to carry out Shaw's proposal. The
> group that
> controlled the funds decided that the best they could do with such
> limited
> funds was to run a contest. The alphabet displayed on this page was
> designed by
> Kingsley Read, the winner of the Shaw alphabet competition.
>
> PV: A contest was announced specifying the linguistic requirements,
> in 1958.
> Four contestants submitted alphabet schemes that met or surpassed the
>
> requirements. The Shaw Alphabet was created from an amalgam of these
> 4 proposals.
> Kingsley Read, an architect and designer, provided the majority of
> the design. He
> also created a script or cursive version of the Shaw alphabet called
> Quickscript.
> Further revisions to remove some confusing spiral letters and to
> streamline
> an overly complex vowel design were successful and incorporated in
> this book by
> the author.
> SB: In 1941, Shaw specified the goal for his proposed British
> alphabet. He
> himself used Pitman shorthand and was familiar with the advantages of
> phonemic
> writing. Pitman, however, was not linear and difficult to print.
> Shaw was
> impressed with Sweet's "current" linear shorthand but objected to the
> focus on
> abbreviation.
> Kingsley Read was impressed with the essay which appeared as the
> preface to
> the book, The Miraculous Birth of Language, and contacted Shaw. He
> showed Shaw
> his early attempts to build a phonemic notation to match Shaw's
> requirements.
> Shaw encouraged his efforts.
> In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to advancing his
> linguistic ideas.
> The will was challenged by lawyers representing the British Museum
> and other
> charities on the grounds that you can't leave money to an idea.
> Shaw's
> fortune did not amount to much until the spectacular success of My
> Fair Lady.
> Pitman negotiated a deal whereby a small amount of the fortune, about
> #8000, would
> be used to fulfill the terms of the will.
>
> Both vowel letters and vowel markers are part of the Shaw alphabet,
> but they
> have different functions. The Shaw Letters indicate the exact vowel
> sounds for
> the key vowels of a written word. The Shaw Vowel Marker indicates
> just the
> kind of vowel used in the written word and how the internal vowels
> hold the
> syllables together.
>
> The main or Primary Shaw vowel letters each represents a specific
> vowel sound
> preceded by a Glottal Stop in order to make it emphatic. A Shaw vowel
> marker
> indicates the presence of a vowel, without an associated Glottal
> Stop. A vowel
> marker does not indicate the specific vowel. It indicates the type of
> vowel.
> For example, whether it is a long, short, double, half sized vowel or
> Schwa. A
> vowel marker does not necessarily give an exact pronunciation. There
> may be
> as many as 6 different vowel sounds, represented by any one
> particular vowel
> marker. Or as few a one vowel sound in the case of a Schwa.
>
> The Roman alphabet uses over 30 of vowel letters and vowel letter
> combinations made up from "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", "w" and "y" and
> also adds the silent
> "e" to the end of the word to indicate many of the various vowel
> sounds used by
> English. Unfortunately, all of those various vowel letters and vowel
> letter
> combinations are not logical and do not consistently represent the
> same sound.
> The Shaw alphabet uses a system, that can handle a wider variety of
> vowel
> sounds and their combinations and represent them accurately and
> consistently.
>


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Alright, time to stop talking and start doing...

I've created the new group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/.

Pop along and sign up. Haven't a lot of time to say or do more at the moment
as I'm on lunch break...

Hugh B

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Newton, Philip [mailto:Philip.Newton@...]
> Sent: 10 November 2004 10:04
> To: 'shavian@...'
> Subject: Re: [shavian] A new Yahoo Group just for messages.
>
>
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > Why does the solution have to be so complicated?
> > We can have 2 Yahoo Groups, Shavian and ShawAlphabet.
> > We retain the old Yahoo group for Archive purposes and as a Spam trap.
> > We can't get rid of it anyway, so we might as well keep it
> > and keep an Eye on it and occasionally redirect people to the
> > new active Shavian Group (ShawAlphabet or Shawbet).
>
> Sounds like a good idea to me.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>




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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:18:17 -0000, Hugh Birkenhead
<mixsynth@...> wrote:
>
> Alright, time to stop talking and start doing...
>
> I've created the new group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/.

I've also asked Scott to create a group on shavian.org (also by the
"let's go ahead and do something" token).

May the more popular one win :p

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>


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Just make sure there is a link to everything from www.shavian.org.
Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:18:17 -0000, Hugh Birkenhead
> <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> >
> > Alright, time to stop talking and start doing...
> >
> > I've created the new group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/.
>
> I've also asked Scott to create a group on shavian.org (also by the
> "let's go ahead and do something" token).
>
> May the more popular one win :p
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>





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Hi Scott
You included mention of the Shaw Vowel Marker in your FAQS.
That doesn't exist in the original Shavian Alphabet.
It was an enhancement to allow accented variations of the same
word to be written in a Standard, albeit slightly generic form.
It handles things like the Aussie vowel shift, in much the same way
that the special Rhotic Letters in the Original Shaw Alphabet allow
a RP accented English and a Rhotic American English to be written
withmore or less with the same letters.
You should probably remove reference to it from your FAQS.
We don't want to confuse anyone.

Regards, Paul V.
__________________attached___________________________________________


--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> Very good, very good. Combine what you have and answer some of the
> other usual questions, and I think we'll have a pretty darned good
faq.
>
> I supposed I need to do a little more shaw reading, and
> transliterating. Hey, I'm working on it!
>
> --Star
> --- stbetta@a... wrote:
>
> > FAQ - Shavian Additional Glosses and comments welcomed:
> > What is the Shaw or Shavian alphabet?
> > by Paul Vanderbrink [PV] Glosses by Steve Bett [SB]
> > PV: The Shaw alphabet is a modern, phonetically accurate
replacement
> > for the
> > old Roman alphabet to write English. The Shaw alphabet has been
> > designed to
> > write modern English more quickly and effectively. The Roman
alphabet
> > was
> > designed specifically for Latin, over 2,600 years ago, and has
become
> > the alphabet
> > of choice for hundreds of languages. It became the customary
alphabet
> > for
> > written English, as Latin was the language of education, at the
time,
> > that the
> > writing of English.
> > SB: The Shaw alphabet is a non-Roman, near 100% phonemic, symbols
> > system
> > suitable for writing English as it is spoken.
> > Systems with one symbol per sound and no silent letters are more
> > compact and
> > faster to write. Shaw saw it as a parallel alphabet which would
win
> > converts
> > due to its superiority. Shaw recommended a new set of letters so
the
> > new
> > spellings would not be considered uneducated or ugly.
> >
> > Who created the Shaw alphabet?
> > SB: Shaw specified the linguistic requirements for an alphabet
code
> > as early
> > as 1941. He wanted one unequivocal symbol for 42 English speech
> > sounds and he
> > did not want it to be confused with traditional spelling. His
model
> > was
> > phonemic shorthand. In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune
to
> > fund the
> > development of a new alphabet. The will was contested and only a
> > small sum [less
> > than $20,000] was made available to carry out Shaw's proposal.
The
> > group that
> > controlled the funds decided that the best they could do with
such
> > limited
> > funds was to run a contest. The alphabet displayed on this page
was
> > designed by
> > Kingsley Read, the winner of the Shaw alphabet competition.
> >
> > PV: A contest was announced specifying the linguistic
requirements,
> > in 1958.
> > Four contestants submitted alphabet schemes that met or
surpassed the
> >
> > requirements. The Shaw Alphabet was created from an amalgam of
these
> > 4 proposals.
> > Kingsley Read, an architect and designer, provided the majority
of
> > the design. He
> > also created a script or cursive version of the Shaw alphabet
called
> > Quickscript.
> > Further revisions to remove some confusing spiral letters and to
> > streamline
> > an overly complex vowel design were successful and incorporated
in
> > this book by
> > the author.
> > SB: In 1941, Shaw specified the goal for his proposed British
> > alphabet. He
> > himself used Pitman shorthand and was familiar with the
advantages of
> > phonemic
> > writing. Pitman, however, was not linear and difficult to
print.
> > Shaw was
> > impressed with Sweet's "current" linear shorthand but objected
to the
> > focus on
> > abbreviation.
> > Kingsley Read was impressed with the essay which appeared as the
> > preface to
> > the book, The Miraculous Birth of Language, and contacted Shaw.
He
> > showed Shaw
> > his early attempts to build a phonemic notation to match Shaw's
> > requirements.
> > Shaw encouraged his efforts.
> > In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to advancing his
> > linguistic ideas.
> > The will was challenged by lawyers representing the British
Museum
> > and other
> > charities on the grounds that you can't leave money to an idea.
> > Shaw's
> > fortune did not amount to much until the spectacular success of
My
> > Fair Lady.
> > Pitman negotiated a deal whereby a small amount of the fortune,
about
> > ?000, would
> > be used to fulfill the terms of the will.
> >
> > Both vowel letters and vowel markers are part of the Shaw
alphabet,
> > but they
> > have different functions. The Shaw Letters indicate the exact
vowel
> > sounds for
> > the key vowels of a written word. The Shaw Vowel Marker indicates
> > just the
> > kind of vowel used in the written word and how the internal
vowels
> > hold the
> > syllables together.
> >
> > The main or Primary Shaw vowel letters each represents a specific
> > vowel sound
> > preceded by a Glottal Stop in order to make it emphatic. A Shaw
vowel
> > marker
> > indicates the presence of a vowel, without an associated Glottal
> > Stop. A vowel
> > marker does not indicate the specific vowel. It indicates the
type of
> > vowel.
> > For example, whether it is a long, short, double, half sized
vowel or
> > Schwa. A
> > vowel marker does not necessarily give an exact pronunciation.
There
> > may be
> > as many as 6 different vowel sounds, represented by any one
> > particular vowel
> > marker. Or as few a one vowel sound in the case of a Schwa.
> >
> > The Roman alphabet uses over 30 of vowel letters and vowel
letter
> > combinations made up from "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", "w" and "y"
and
> > also adds the silent
> > "e" to the end of the word to indicate many of the various vowel
> > sounds used by
> > English. Unfortunately, all of those various vowel letters and
vowel
> > letter
> > combinations are not logical and do not consistently represent
the
> > same sound.
> > The Shaw alphabet uses a system, that can handle a wider variety
of
> > vowel
> > sounds and their combinations and represent them accurately and
> > consistently.
> >
>
>
> =====
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
> Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> www.yahoo.com





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> > Alright, time to stop talking and start doing...
> >
> > I've created the new group at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/.
>
> I've also asked Scott to create a group on shavian.org (also by the
> "let's go ahead and do something" token).
>
> May the more popular one win :p
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Personally, as far as this community is concerned, I'd much rather upgrade
the Shavian forum software and move the discussion there... Email will never
be a good enough way to communicate in Shavian because most mailreaders just
can't display the fonts and/or Unicode properly.

Anyway, mustn't grumble...

The ShawAlphabet list has now got 6 members as I write this, let's hope that
figure continues to rise.

Hugh



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--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004

Hey, wait a minute, what's this stuff near the end about vowel markers?
Is this another attempt to pass Paul's modified Shaw alphabet off as
straight Shavian?

Star Raven incurred the wrath of Bob on Nov 10, by saying

>
>Very good, very good. Combine what you have and answer some of the
>other usual questions, and I think we'll have a pretty darned good faq.
>
>I supposed I need to do a little more shaw reading, and
>transliterating. Hey, I'm working on it!
>
>--Star
>--- stbetta@... wrote:
>
>> FAQ - Shavian Additional Glosses and comments welcomed:
>> What is the Shaw or Shavian alphabet?
>> by Paul Vanderbrink [PV] Glosses by Steve Bett [SB]
>> PV: The Shaw alphabet is a modern, phonetically accurate replacement
>> for the
>> old Roman alphabet to write English. The Shaw alphabet has been
>> designed to
>> write modern English more quickly and effectively. The Roman alphabet
>> was
>> designed specifically for Latin, over 2,600 years ago, and has become
>> the alphabet
>> of choice for hundreds of languages. It became the customary alphabet
>> for
>> written English, as Latin was the language of education, at the time,
>> that the
>> writing of English.
>> SB: The Shaw alphabet is a non-Roman, near 100% phonemic, symbols
>> system
>> suitable for writing English as it is spoken.
>> Systems with one symbol per sound and no silent letters are more
>> compact and
>> faster to write. Shaw saw it as a parallel alphabet which would win
>> converts
>> due to its superiority. Shaw recommended a new set of letters so the
>> new
>> spellings would not be considered uneducated or ugly.
>>
>> Who created the Shaw alphabet?
>> SB: Shaw specified the linguistic requirements for an alphabet code
>> as early
>> as 1941. He wanted one unequivocal symbol for 42 English speech
>> sounds and he
>> did not want it to be confused with traditional spelling. His model
>> was
>> phonemic shorthand. In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to
>> fund the
>> development of a new alphabet. The will was contested and only a
>> small sum [less
>> than $20,000] was made available to carry out Shaw's proposal. The
>> group that
>> controlled the funds decided that the best they could do with such
>> limited
>> funds was to run a contest. The alphabet displayed on this page was
>> designed by
>> Kingsley Read, the winner of the Shaw alphabet competition.
>>
>> PV: A contest was announced specifying the linguistic requirements,
>> in 1958.
>> Four contestants submitted alphabet schemes that met or surpassed the
>>
>> requirements. The Shaw Alphabet was created from an amalgam of these
>> 4 proposals.
>> Kingsley Read, an architect and designer, provided the majority of
>> the design. He
>> also created a script or cursive version of the Shaw alphabet called
>> Quickscript.
>> Further revisions to remove some confusing spiral letters and to
>> streamline
>> an overly complex vowel design were successful and incorporated in
>> this book by
>> the author.
>> SB: In 1941, Shaw specified the goal for his proposed British
>> alphabet. He
>> himself used Pitman shorthand and was familiar with the advantages of
>> phonemic
>> writing. Pitman, however, was not linear and difficult to print.
>> Shaw was
>> impressed with Sweet's "current" linear shorthand but objected to the
>> focus on
>> abbreviation.
>> Kingsley Read was impressed with the essay which appeared as the
>> preface to
>> the book, The Miraculous Birth of Language, and contacted Shaw. He
>> showed Shaw
>> his early attempts to build a phonemic notation to match Shaw's
>> requirements.
>> Shaw encouraged his efforts.
>> In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to advancing his
>> linguistic ideas.
>> The will was challenged by lawyers representing the British Museum
>> and other
>> charities on the grounds that you can't leave money to an idea.
>> Shaw's
>> fortune did not amount to much until the spectacular success of My
>> Fair Lady.
>> Pitman negotiated a deal whereby a small amount of the fortune, about
>> £8000, would
>> be used to fulfill the terms of the will.
>>
>> Both vowel letters and vowel markers are part of the Shaw alphabet,
>> but they
>> have different functions. The Shaw Letters indicate the exact vowel
>> sounds for
>> the key vowels of a written word. The Shaw Vowel Marker indicates
>> just the
>> kind of vowel used in the written word and how the internal vowels
>> hold the
>> syllables together.
>>
>> The main or Primary Shaw vowel letters each represents a specific
>> vowel sound
>> preceded by a Glottal Stop in order to make it emphatic. A Shaw vowel
>> marker
>> indicates the presence of a vowel, without an associated Glottal
>> Stop. A vowel
>> marker does not indicate the specific vowel. It indicates the type of
>> vowel.
>> For example, whether it is a long, short, double, half sized vowel or
>> Schwa. A
>> vowel marker does not necessarily give an exact pronunciation. There
>> may be
>> as many as 6 different vowel sounds, represented by any one
>> particular vowel
>> marker. Or as few a one vowel sound in the case of a Schwa.
>>
>> The Roman alphabet uses over 30 of vowel letters and vowel letter
>> combinations made up from "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", "w" and "y" and
>> also adds the silent
>> "e" to the end of the word to indicate many of the various vowel
>> sounds used by
>> English. Unfortunately, all of those various vowel letters and vowel
>> letter
>> combinations are not logical and do not consistently represent the
>> same sound.
>> The Shaw alphabet uses a system, that can handle a wider variety of
>> vowel
>> sounds and their combinations and represent them accurately and
>> consistently.
>>
>
>
>=====
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
>Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
>
>

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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Whoops, I'm a little behind on my mail. Paul already caught this, no
mischief was intended on anyone's part. Sorry for going off half-cocked
there, although if I'm lucky it helped to draw Steve's attention more
urgently to the error.

Bob Schmertz incurred the wrath of Bob on Nov 10, by saying

>
>Hey, wait a minute, what's this stuff near the end about vowel markers?
>Is this another attempt to pass Paul's modified Shaw alphabet off as
>straight Shavian?
>

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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Hey, I incurred no wrath, I missed the vowel marker thing myself. I
must have wandered off by the end...

--Star

--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:

>
> Hey, wait a minute, what's this stuff near the end about vowel
> markers?
> Is this another attempt to pass Paul's modified Shaw alphabet off as
> straight Shavian?
>
> Star Raven incurred the wrath of Bob on Nov 10, by saying


=====
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Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



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