Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hí ol alfàbetérz,


This is an experiment in embedded graphics. If you can't view all the elements on this page, please contact me. stbett@... <mailto:stbett@...>

According to this CUP analysis, the only difference between the sound categories used by British and American speakers is with respect to the short and long <oh> /oU/.
Non-rhotics will also drop the <r> before a consonant.

I think that Shavian is rhotic in its display. However, non-rhotics will probably pronounce the sound signs according to their dialect.

The chart provides a more compact representation of the same information.
However, some people have difficulty reading tabular data. If you have a problem interpreting this chart, please contact me at stbett@... <mailto:stbett@...>

If you cannot see the chart go to the file section on the following URL
http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/40-ipa-16c.gif




<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm>
for an automated conversion of any standard text into IPA go to
IPA Converter [draft]
Manchester - Converter for IPA, Soundspel, Cut Spelling, ...
http://www.ccl.umist.ac.uk/staff/toby/Reformed_Spelling_in_CALL/plaintext.html <http://www.ccl.umist.ac.uk/staff/toby/Reformed_Spelling_in_CALL/plaintext.html> <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm>

for more on converters go to
http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/converters.htm

-------

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm


Phonetics


By default, phonetics are not displayed in dictionary entries. To enable them, check the 'Display phonetics' box when you perform your search.

Note: The phonetics feature is currently only available within the Cambridge International Dictionary of English and the Cambridge Dictionary of American English.


Pronunciation


* vowels <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm#vowels>
* consonants <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm#consonants>
* diphthongs <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm#diphthongs>
* Other symbols <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm#other>


vowels

long vowels

<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pee.gif> sheep
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/paa.gif> farm
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phonoo.gif> coo
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/paw.gif> horse
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/per.gif> bird
short vowels
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pshorti.gif> ship <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pe.gif> head
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pshorta.gif> hat <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/schwa.gif> above
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/shortu.gif> foot <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/usschwa.gif> mother (US)
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/po.gif> sock (UK)
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pu.gif> cup

consonants

voiced

<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pb.gif> book
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pd.gif> day
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pg.gif> give
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pv.gif> very
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pthe.gif> the
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pz.gif> zoo
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pzi.gif> vision
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pj.gif> jump
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pl.gif> look
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pr.gif> run
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/py.gif> yes
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pw.gif> we
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pm.gif> moon
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pn.gif> name
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/ping.gif> sing
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/ph.gif> hand
voiceless
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pp.gif> pen
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pt.gif> town
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pk.gif> cat
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pf.gif> fish
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pth.gif> think
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/ps.gif> say
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/psh.gif> she
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pch.gif> cheese

diphthongs

<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phonei.gif> day
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phonai.gif> eye
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phonoi.gif> boy
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phonau.gif> mouth
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phoneu.gif> nose (UK)
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phonou.gif> nose (US)
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phonear.gif> ear (UK)
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phonhair.gif> hair (UK)
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/phonue.gif> pure (UK)

Other symbols

<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/rant.gif> <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/restaurant.gif> restaurant
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/pi.gif> <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/happy.gif> happy
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/tt.gif> <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/butter.gif> butter (US)
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/uenza.gif> <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/influenza.gif> influenza
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/ill.gif> <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/little.gif> little

<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/elemen.gif> can be pronounced either <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/el.gif> etc.
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/label.gif> label

r linking r is pronounced only before a vowel in British English:
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/apples.gif>
four <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/arrow.gif> four apples

<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/mainstress.gif> main stress <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/expectation.gif>
expectation
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/secondstress.gif> secondary stress <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/retell.gif>
retell
. syllable division <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/assets/symbols/system.gif>
system
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm>

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I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to Shavian.
Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.

I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses as a draft only.
I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's proposals and the
accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.

My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be clearly indicated as
a revision.

I have a revision called PMF. The rationale for this revision was to make
the character shapes historical.
http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/43pmf-cap.gif

I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.

comments appreciated.

-Steve



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Good Gracious. I have made a number of proposals for simplifying the
Shaw Alphabet and making it more consistent over the years.
I took a quick look and there was discussion around June 16, 2002
and another one on July 13, 2003. I am certain there are a number of
others.
My most extreme modification of the Shavian Alphabet is called the
Revised Shaw Abjad and a description of it can be found on
www.omniglot.com in the section on alternate writing systems for
those writing systems invented by visitors to this site.
Please let me know if you have question about a more specific change
to the Shaw Alphabet.

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
P.S. I posted a revised copy of your FAQ at the new forum.

___________________attached______________________________________

--- In shavian@..., stbetta@a... wrote:
> I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to
Shavian.
> Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.
>
> I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses as a
draft only.
> I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's proposals
and the
> accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.
>
> My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be clearly
indicated as
> a revision.
>
> I have a revision called PMF. The rationale for this revision was
to make
> the character shapes historical.
> http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/43pmf-cap.gif
>
> I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.
>
> comments appreciated.
>
> -Steve





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Hi Steve
I hope everybody is switching over to the new Shaw Alphabet Forum on
Yahoo Groups. It is easy if you go in through www.shavian.org.
Anyway I started up a few new threads over there to get things going.
I hope people will finish up any incomplete threads here and then
put their new questions and comments out on the new Forum.
Some of our older members are no longer active, or all lurked out as
I like to put it, so we will be able to get a better idea of the
Shaw Alphabet community over there on the "Shaw Alphabet" forum.

Regards, Paul V.

Hey Scott
Please let me know if you have question about a more specific change
to the Shaw Alphabet.
>
> Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> P.S. I posted a revised copy of your FAQ at the new forum.
>
> ___________________attached______________________________________
>
> --- In shavian@..., stbetta@a... wrote:
> > I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to
> Shavian.
> > Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.
> >
> > I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses as
a
> draft only.
> > I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's
proposals
> and the
> > accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.
> >
> > My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be
clearly
> indicated as
> > a revision.
> >
> > I have a revision called PMF. The rationale for this revision
was
> to make
> > the character shapes historical.
> > http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/43pmf-cap.gif
> >
> > I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.
> >
> > comments appreciated.
> >
> > -Steve





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Hi Paul,

Thanks for the approximate dates for the discussion of your revision proposals.

I will eventually get around to looking them up.

I have enrolled in one of the new discussion groups.

Perhaps you can restate your rationale for making changes.

I think most of your proposed changes involve making Shavian easier to learn and use.

1. The classic shaw alphabet contains two clerical errors.
2. The classic shaw alphabet combined printers detail with what writer's needed.
For instance, there is no need to have more than one way to write a combination of sound signs.
3.




Hi Steve
I hope everybody is switching over to the new Shaw Alphabet Forum on
Yahoo Groups. It is easy if you go in through www.shavian.org.
Anyway I started up a few new threads over there to get things going.
I hope people will finish up any incomplete threads here and then
put their new questions and comments out on the new Forum.
Some of our older members are no longer active, or all lurked out as
I like to put it, so we will be able to get a better idea of the
Shaw Alphabet community over there on the "Shaw Alphabet" forum.

Regards, Paul V.

Hey Scott
Please let me know if you have question about a more specific change
to the Shaw Alphabet.
>
> Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> P.S. I posted a revised copy of your FAQ at the new forum.
>
> ___________________attached______________________________________
>
> --- In shavian@..., stbetta@a... wrote:
> > I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to
> Shavian.
> > Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.
> >
> > I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses as
a
> draft only.
> > I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's
proposals
> and the
> > accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.
> >
> > My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be
clearly
> indicated as
> > a revision.
> >
> > I have a revision called PMF. The rationale for this revision
was
> to make
> > the character shapes historical.
> > http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/43pmf-cap.gif
> >
> > I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.
> >
> > comments appreciated.
> >
> > -Steve



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Hi Steve
Thanks for those suggestions. I have a better idea what changes
you are willing to consider. Let me present my rationale.
It has evolved since my last polemic, so I suspect it might better
received.
Let me first present a couple of my assumptions, so you will know
where I am coming from.
1. I think the Shavian Alphabet is an incredibly useful tool for
representing the English succinctly, efficiently and logically.
There is no comparison possible with the out-dated Roman Alphabet.
2. Nevertheless, the Shavian Alphabet is almost totally unknown among
English speakers. Even English Teachers and Professors of Linguistics
are only occassionally aware of this Alphabet.
3. This situation of ignorance is even worse, if that were possible
among American English Speakers, Writers, Teachers and Professors.
4. Among the people who do learn of the Shavian Alphabet, only
minority master it. Typically, they are people with specialized
training in pronuciation, people with some University level education
in Phonetics and Linguistics, or Language Hobbyists (CONLANG
Builders).
People with a British or RP Accent seem to be more successful at
mastering the Shavian Alphabet.
5. If not for retentive ability of the Internet to focus disparate
interests on arcane and esoteric subjects, the Shaw Alphabet would
probably have fallen on the scrap heap of History.
By the way, I am not saying the Shavian Alphabet is esoteric or even
eccentric.

So given this information, I would like to provide a subset of the
Shavian Alphabet tailored specifically for American speakers.
Not for all American Speakers, but for those American's speaking the
simple Mid-western accent that is accepted nationally in the United
States as standard American English.
I would like to provide a simple Manual to teach that subset that
would be available on-line.

There is actually a American Dictionary available that lists the
23,000 of the most common English words with their English
pronunciation in the International Phonetic Alphabet.
It is called NTC's Dictionary of American English Pronunciation,
by Bernard Silverstein, published in 1995. No reprints apparently,
unfortunately.

Let me list the simplifications this Dictionary uses.
1. It doesn't distinguish between "Ado" and "Up". It uses the Schwa
symbol for both.
2. It doesn't distinguish between "On" and "Ah"
3. It doesn't distinguish between "Array" and "Err" (Urge) Rhotic
Letters.
4. It doesn't have the 4 other Rhotic Letters, "Are", "Or", "Air"
and "Ear" at all.
5. It doesn't have special symbols for some funny English sound
combinations (i.e. Yew, Ian). They are simply spelled out with
individual IPA letters.

Just consider that if equivalent changes where used to create the
American Shaw Alphabet subset, it would reduce the number of Shavian
Vowel Letters
from 24 to 15.

To be honest this Dictionary does make one distinction that the
Shavian Alphabet disregards.

1. It does distinguish between the "w" and the "wh" sound.
I suspect this distinction will disappear with time in any case.
So lets leave it out of the Equation.

But we can see that to most American Speakers, the English vowel
sounds are much less complicated. And then they have to face the
Shavian Alphabet's 24 different distinctions.

I don't hesitate to say that I think the complexity of the Shaw Vowel
system needs to be explained to American ears, trying to learn the
Shaw Alphabet. And if they just can't hear the distinction, they need
simple rules to follow, to avoid picking letters at Random.

For example, I consistently always use the Shaw Letter "Array" when
this Rhotic sound ends a syllable, and I only use the "Err" letter to
represent the similar sound when a consonant follows it in the
syllable as in the word, "Urge" or "purge".

As a Canadian, even though I speak with more of an American accent,
I am fairly familar with the common British accents. We have a lot of
Brits and South African's over here, and access to BBC and ITV
televison shows. So unless a Cockney buttonholes me I can get by.
But most Americans just don't hear some of these vowel sound
distinctions in the Shaw Alphabet.

So that's the problem.
I am willing to discuss any of a number of possible solutions except
the status quo.

My preference would be a modest proposal. Create the Subset for
Americans. Explain the mechanics of the Schwa. Explain Rhotic Letters.
Reduce the Vowel Letters from 24 to 21, by telling Americans to limit
themselves to one of "On" and "Ah"
one of "Array" and "Err" (Urge)
"Eat"+"Ado" instead of "Ian"

This would eliminate the American predicament of having more than one
way to write a common sound.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. As far as your concern about Ha-Ha and Hung being reversed.
I think that is clerical mistake that you are taking about.
These sounds are not voiced/unvoiced sound pair in any case.
And these sounds are quite disimilar in any case.
"Hung" is a Nasal sound and "Ha-Ha" is an aspirate.
Hypothetically speaking,
I would not reverse them. There is a less confusing solution.
As suggested in an earlier post, I would raise "Ha-Ha" from a Deep
position to a Tall position, leaving the letter the same.
Now, "Hang" as Nasal sound should resemble Mem and Noon and be in the
Short position like the other 2 Nasal sounds. Perhaps if you rotated
the Noon a few degrees, you would get
a letter resembling a large Tilde, which could be used for Hung.
Or you could just shrink or squash the "Hung" down.

P.S. Almost any drastic solution at this point would only create more
confusion, which should be avoided.

--- In shavian@..., stbetta@a... wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for the approximate dates for the discussion of your
revision
> proposals.
>
> I will eventually get around to looking them up.
>
> I have enrolled in one of the new discussion groups.
>
> Perhaps you can restate your rationale for making changes.
>
> I think most of your proposed changes involve making Shavian easier
to learn
> and use.
>
> 1. The classic shaw alphabet contains two clerical errors.
> 2. The classic shaw alphabet combined printers detail with what
writer's needed.
3 For instance, there is no need to have more than one way to write
a combination of sound signs.






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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

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Hi Everybody
It looks like we have made the switch-over to the new Forum
successfully except John Cowan of Loglan fame. Dshep, Steve Augart
and dshep are also missing in action.
Everyone except a few lurkers have registered on the new site,
and we have at the beginning with some Shaw material for Newcommers
to get started on. See attached for more details.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve
> I hope everybody is switching over to the new Shaw Alphabet Forum
on
> Yahoo Groups. It is easy if you go in through www.shavian.org.
> Anyway I started up a few new threads over there to get things
going.
> I hope people will finish up any incomplete threads here and then
> put their new questions and comments out on the new Forum.
> Some of our older members are no longer active, or all lurked out
as
> I like to put it, so we will be able to get a better idea of the
> Shaw Alphabet community over there on the "Shaw Alphabet" forum.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> Hey Scott
> Please let me know if you have question about a more specific change
> to the Shaw Alphabet.
> >
> > Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> > P.S. I posted a revised copy of your FAQ at the new forum.
> >
> > ___________________attached______________________________________
> >
> > --- In shavian@..., stbetta@a... wrote:
> > > I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to
> > Shavian.
> > > Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.
> > >
> > > I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses
as
> a
> > draft only.
> > > I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's
> proposals
> > and the
> > > accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.
> > >
> > > My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be
> clearly
> > indicated as
> > > a revision.
> > >
> > > I have a revision called PMF. The rationale for this revision
> was
> > to make
> > > the character shapes historical.
> > > http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/43pmf-cap.gif
> > >
> > > I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.
> > >
> > > comments appreciated.
> > >
> > > -Steve





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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:14:19 -0000, dshepx <dshep@...> wrote:
>
> All right, what do I do? Does this suffice as sufficient registration to join the
> new group?

No; you'll have to go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/
and click on Join this group (or something like that).

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>


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How does one write this in shavian? For example, how does one
write "penance"?

The closest I could get is "penens".

That doesn't sound right to me...forgive me beacaue I just began
learning something like half an hour ago.

Cheers,
Seb





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On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:24:08 -0000, Seb <sebii@...> wrote:
>
> How does one write this in shavian? For example, how does one
> write "penance"?

I would write it "penans".

Different people have different ways of spelling Shavian, depending in
part on whether they are representing their own accent or some kind of
idealised "common Shavian" accent; one resource that some people like
to use when in doubt is the American Heritage Dictionary of the
English Language as used at www.dictionary.com -- for example,
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=penance (the pronunciation
key is at http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html ).
This dictionary puts a shwa in the second syllable, which is
represented by the Shavian letter ado (a).

> That doesn't sound right to me...forgive me beacaue I just began
> learning something like half an hour ago.

BTW, if you only just joined the group, you may also want to join the
'shawalphabet' Yahoo Group; this one tends to get spam occasionally
and we can't do anything about it because the listmaster has gone
AWOL.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>


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