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In a message from Hal Fulton <hal9000@...>
dated Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:08:53 -0800, my mailer made me see:

-> Hi all,
->
-> I am very much a believer in Unicode, so I am glad to see things
-> being discussed here. However, there's a bit of a problem in that
-> virtually no one really uses Unicode yet. (Please, prove me wrong.)
-> And I've NEVER heard of anyone implementing ALL of Unicode -- all
-> the existing implementations I've heard of handle some subset of it.
->

It depends on what you mean by using it. If you happen to use MacOS X (Server) you are using Unicode. All the text processing is done in Unicode. This is especially evident if using the Japanese packages. When you say implementing all of Unicode, do you mean being able to input Unicode values and display them? If so, then come play with my laptop. I can input Japanese, display Korean, read Shavian, etc. all from the same machine. The key here is that I do not rely on one font to represent every character. Admittedly, the Chinese font is BIG, but my Shavian font is small. On this system the rulebooks make use of many fonts to display Unicode. However, experimenting with the browsers on Windows seems to indicate that one needs one font with all characters in it.

-> Also, a small point that will hearten some of you.
->
-> It's a minor misconception that Unicode can only handle 65,536
-> characters. If that were so, you can bet there wouldn't be any
-> conscript stuff in there like Shavian or Klingon!
->
-> There's a trick that I forget the details of -- sort of like a
-> code page shift or something -- where you can switch to a different
-> "plane" (I think that's the term) and have basically a whole new
-> character set at your disposal. So the "simple" Unicode characters
-> number 65,000 or so, but the "very rare" ones can potentially
-> number -- what, close to a million?
->
-> Forgive me for being so vague. You can look up the details. I assure
-> you the core of what I'm saying is true.

UTF-16. This allows almost one million characters. However, in the modern world there is no need for that. Only if you are a student of archaic languages or you really want all the ANCIENT Chinese characters or something along those lines. For everyone else the straight 16-bit version is perfect.

->
-> Incidentally, it's done this way because of the immense diversity
-> of the world's scripts. From what I understand, they "cheated" by
-> including the common characters of Japanese, Chinese, and Korean
-> only once rather than three times, and still don't have enough room
-> for ALL the characters.

Actually it is not cheating. You will note that the "M" is the same no matter what language uses it - French, Italian or Swahili. For the proper description one needs to access the Unicode web site or the books.

->
-> And that, of course, is why Unicode is so bloody huge.
->
-> Also, it's perhaps worthwhile to remember that the addition of Shavian
-> is only "proposed" -- isn't that correct? So while there are code points
-> assigned, which presumably no one can use for something else, they
-> aren't
-> "official" yet, are they?
->
-> Hal
->

Yes, Shavian is currently proposed only. The ConScript Unicode Registry has assigned code points to Shavian. However, these are not official. But, since they are static with regard to all the other code points assigned to anything else, they are good enough to use for now. It does mean that when Shavian is assigned its final code points that all the unofficial Unicode documents will have to be recoded. Yes, I know that is a large task (but one that is quite easily automated) but I am willing to go through the process to get the documents out to people now. By the way, that is why all my software and documents are considered version 0.90 because the final points are not assigned. When they are assigned, and I update my programs/documents, the version will become 1.00.

Don't be afraid of Unicode. Embrace it. And I say again - I will try to help anyone who has a Windows text editor that understands Unicode to create a mechanism where one can input Shavian (using the same keystrokes that are used now). If that happens we can migrate to Unicode if we choose, enabling us to combine Shavian with any other scripts that we choose.

--Scott

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On 22 Dec 99, at 14:08, Hal Fulton wrote:

> I am very much a believer in Unicode, so I am glad to see things
> being discussed here. However, there's a bit of a problem in that
> virtually no one really uses Unicode yet. (Please, prove me wrong.)

Scott Harrison wrote that MacOS X Server uses Unicode -- so does
Windows NT and Windows CE. Internally, it's all Unicode.

> Also, it's perhaps worthwhile to remember that the addition of Shavian
> is only "proposed" -- isn't that correct? So while there are code points
> assigned, which presumably no one can use for something else, they
> aren't "official" yet, are they?

Shavian is registered with the ConScript Unicode Registry
(http://www.egt.ie/standards/csur/index.html or
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/csur/index.html) since 12 Feb 1997. However,
CSUR assigns points inside the "Private Use" area of Unicode, where
anyone can assign characters. Any two people can agree that code point
U+E97B means "Shavian letter peep" or "Windows logo" or "Scull and
crossbones" or "Chinese ideogram zhi2" or anything they want. CSUR is
just a place that coordinates ConScript people, and they say themselves
that nothing there is official in any way; as far as I know, they're
not associated with the Unicode Consortium.

However, character sets registered with them may eventually make it
into official Unicode -- their page says that Klingon, Cirth, and
Tengwar are proposed for inclusion in plane 1 (the second place) of
UCS. Possibly, Shavian may make it, too (if enough people use it). If
not, then the fact that CSUR has assigned it a range means we don't
have to agree on one between ourselves; it's as good as anything. And
because it's in the Private Use space, it means that Shavian letters
will never clash with anything official (they may clash with things
other people decide to put in the Private Use space, though I don't
know anyone or any company that does that).

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>

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At 08:08 PM 12/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear Andy, I was a little confused by your Shavian transliteration at
>first. Is there a reason you didn't use the standard abbreviation for "the"
>that's listed in the Shavian table? Not a criticism. Justwanted to know.
>Dan
Two reasons:
1) If you are referring to my "The Homecoming", it is because it was
translated using TPT, and that's how the word appears in the dictionary.
You'll notice some other longhands as well, such as /you/.

2) I don't believe in them. Some of us are finding it difficult enough to
read the script without the additional confusion caused by these shortcuts.
(Oops, just opened another can of worms.) :-0

- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------

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At 08:08 PM 12/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear Andy, I was a little confused by your Shavian transliteration at
>first. Is there a reason you didn't use the standard abbreviation for "the"
>that's listed in the Shavian table? Not a criticism. Justwanted to know.
>Dan
Two reasons:
1) If you are referring to my "The Homecoming", it is because it was
translated using TPT, and that's how the word appears in the dictionary.
You'll notice some other longhands as well, such as /you/.

2) I don't believe in them. Some of us are finding it difficult enough to
read the script without the additional confusion caused by these shortcuts.
(Oops, just opened another can of worms.) :-0

- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------

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Dear Andy--Thanks for the response. I understand. I propose that, like in
Braille, we might want to designate text that uses no abbreviations as Grade
I, those that use the 4 abbreviations on the chart as Grade II--to let the
reader know what to expect in a text. It may be a peculiarity to me because
I have transcribed the Eastern Orthodox Daily Prayers into Shavian and read
them every day. But, in the text "The Homecoming," it took me a second look
to figure out "the" spelled in long form, because I always use the
prescribed abbreviations.
Again, no criticism intended. On the contrary, it makes me feel free to
use my own Grade III for my own use. All that I transcribe for distribution
will be in Grade II. You can't fish effectively, without opening a can of
worms, no? Dan
----------
>From: "A.M.Callaway" <acal@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Ghoti Filleter -- delta-testers wanted
>Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999, 5:49 AM
>

>At 08:08 PM 12/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Dear Andy, I was a little confused by your Shavian transliteration at
>>first. Is there a reason you didn't use the standard abbreviation for "the"
>>that's listed in the Shavian table? Not a criticism. Justwanted to know.
>>Dan
>Two reasons:
>1) If you are referring to my "The Homecoming", it is because it was
>translated using TPT, and that's how the word appears in the dictionary.
>You'll notice some other longhands as well, such as /you/.
>
>2) I don't believe in them. Some of us are finding it difficult enough to
>read the script without the additional confusion caused by these shortcuts.
>(Oops, just opened another can of worms.) :-0
>
>- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
>- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
>- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The only fruitcake at overstock.com is our manager.
>Heís giving away a $20 coupon, plus our everyday Free Shipping.
>Take advantage of the savings and selection now.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/342/4/_/54531/_/945953081
>
>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
>-- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=shavian&m=1
>
>
>

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Dear Andy--Thanks for the response. I understand. I propose that, like in
Braille, we might want to designate text that uses no abbreviations as Grade
I, those that use the 4 abbreviations on the chart as Grade II--to let the
reader know what to expect in a text. It may be a peculiarity to me because
I have transcribed the Eastern Orthodox Daily Prayers into Shavian and read
them every day. But, in the text "The Homecoming," it took me a second look
to figure out "the" spelled in long form, because I always use the
prescribed abbreviations.
Again, no criticism intended. On the contrary, it makes me feel free to
use my own Grade III for my own use. All that I transcribe for distribution
will be in Grade II. You can't fish effectively, without opening a can of
worms, no? Dan
----------
>From: "A.M.Callaway" <acal@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Ghoti Filleter -- delta-testers wanted
>Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999, 5:49 AM
>

>At 08:08 PM 12/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Dear Andy, I was a little confused by your Shavian transliteration at
>>first. Is there a reason you didn't use the standard abbreviation for "the"
>>that's listed in the Shavian table? Not a criticism. Justwanted to know.
>>Dan
>Two reasons:
>1) If you are referring to my "The Homecoming", it is because it was
>translated using TPT, and that's how the word appears in the dictionary.
>You'll notice some other longhands as well, such as /you/.
>
>2) I don't believe in them. Some of us are finding it difficult enough to
>read the script without the additional confusion caused by these shortcuts.
>(Oops, just opened another can of worms.) :-0
>
>- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
>- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
>- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The only fruitcake at overstock.com is our manager.
>Hems giving away a $20 coupon, plus our everyday Free Shipping.
>Take advantage of the savings and selection now.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/342/4/_/54531/_/945953081
>
>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
>-- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=shavian&m=1
>
>
>

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I am posting "A Visit From St. Nicholas" a week earlier than scheduled
so that it will arrive before Santa. Happy hollidays to all!

Neil Stewart
Holliston MA USA


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> 2) I don't believe in [the abbreviations]. Some of us are finding it
difficult enough to
> read the script without the additional confusion caused by these
shortcuts.
> (Oops, just opened another can of worms.) :-0

Personally I don't see how these are confusing. I only discovered the
alphabet 18 months ago, when I was but 15 years old, and I found the
abbreviations a real benefit for both reading and writing - and I'm no
expert at alphabets or phonetics either. At first they were unusual to deal
with but I got the hang of them over time - after all, there's only four of
them!

I really think you could grow to like them with practice. They give the
alphabet that extra characterful edge, and they're very practical in terms
of space and time saving too.

Hugh Birkenhead
www.funkymusic.co.uk

P.S. Yes, my email address has changed yet again, due to a duff service
provider whose connections can never stay put. It is now
mixsynth@....

> 2) I don't believe in [the abbreviations]. Some of us are finding it
difficult enough to
> read the script without the additional confusion caused by these
shortcuts.
> (Oops, just opened another can of worms.) :-0

Personally I don't see how these are confusing. I only discovered the
alphabet 18 months ago, when I was but 15 years old, and I found the
abbreviations a real benefit for both reading and writing - and I'm no
expert at alphabets or phonetics either. At first they were unusual to deal
with but I got the hang of them over time - after all, there's only four of
them!

I really think you could grow to like them with practice. They give the
alphabet that extra characterful edge, and they're very practical in terms
of space and time saving too.

Hugh Birkenhead
www.funkymusic.co.uk

P.S. Yes, my email address has changed yet again, due to a duff service
provider whose connections can never stay put. It is now
mixsynth@....




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At 12:26 AM 12/19/99 +0000, you wrote:
>I don't really understand Unicode. I think I must have been off sick the
day they taught it at school. I've looked at www.unicode.org, but it seems
to be aimed at professional programmers, of which I am not one. As far as I
understand it, Unicode is a standard by which every alphabetical character
commonly used in the world is assigned its own unique code. I hope that
this would mean that it would be possible to write a document in, say, the
Shavian and Roman alphabets without switching fonts. I'd guess that a font
could theoretically include all of the many thousands of characters in the
Unicode set, but that this would be impractical, resulting in a huge file
size for such a font... So I suppose that for our purposes, a font called,
say ShavianRomanIPA might be created, which would allow us to converse
about our corner of spelling reform using three alphabets, but without
continually switching font.
>
>Practically everything I've said above is mere assumption, so I expect to
be at least half wrong about a lot of it. I can't find any web site that
explains the basics clearly.
You've got it pretty well spot on. (That's Aussie for "you are correct"). I
actually have a font that supposedly has all available scripts in it, and
it is about 6Mb. I didn't bother trying to install it, I thought my system
would choke. Theoretically, a unicode font could have 65536 charaters in
it, but it uses a special techinique so that it could have even more than
that.

- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------

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