Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

The International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) already does this, and linguists
have been using it since the early 1900's. Why do we need another such
writing system. You can download this script for free at the Summer
Institute of Linguistics website, under "fonts." Dan Szczurek

----------
>From: "A.M.Callaway" <acal@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Wotcher (that's Hi in British English)
>Date: SunSatApr Apr90820002000086:13 AM
>

> At 01:23 PM 4/9/00 +0000, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: YDerwydd@...
>>>Reply-To: shavian@...
>>The strength, attraction and
> [snip-a-bit]
>>
>>[And anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
>>get a grip on size of the problem by spending some time with "The Sounds of
>>the World's Languages" by Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (Blackwells,
>>Oxford UK and Cambridge Mass. 1996).
>>For those determined to pursue this line, there is a font that claims to be
>>able to represent any sound possible in any language - even alien ones. It
>>runs into some quite predictable problems in reading it, but for what its
>>worth it is called Lhoerr Normal. It is available on a site for Constructed
>>Languages - sorry I have lost the address.]
>
> I found something at http://www.io.com/~hmiller/Jarda/Lhoerr-uni.html - is
> that it?
>
> A.Callaway. Lost cause No. 38C5V48 rev. b
>
> - .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ------- andy.callaway@...
> - A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --------- acal@...
> - `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
>
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What you say is only true for the educational elites of countries throughout
the world. It is not true for the majority of people in the world, who will
never have worldwide contacts. I hope that Shavian is not going to become
associated with elitism. The vast majority of Americans can only read at the
8th grade level, and they do not have international contacts.
Dr. Daniel Szczurek

----------
>From: YDerwydd@...
>To: shavian@..., simon_barne@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Wotcher (that's Hi in British English)
>Date: SatSatApr Apr808200020000810:13 PM
>

>
> In a message dated 4/8/00 8:10:15 PM, simon_barne@... writes:
>
>>Greetings to all fellow cranks from south Sumatra.
>
> Apa khabar?
>
> Sincere you live in Indonesia, I'm willing to bet that you people who have
> learned English as a second language. Someone once said that "local
> Englishes" such as Singlish should be encouraged and that these should be
> written in Shavian according to their local pronunciation. I, on the other
> hand, think that no one spends six years mastering English in order to be
> able to converse only with the guy next door. The strength, attraction and
> beauty of English is that it is international -- it opens up the door to be
> able to communicate with people across the world. And so encouraging local
> Englishes and local forms of Shavian defeats the purpose people have in
> learning English. They would be better off focusing on their own native
> language. For this reason, I think we should encourage the development of an
> International standard Shavian. Do you agree?
>
> Ciao,
> Bill Brawner
>
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Dear Simon, Selamat pagi! Apa khabar? Apakah saudara tinggal di Sumatra?
Saudara kerja di Indonesia? Saya Saudara teman Shavian di Seattle. Selamat
tinggal! Dan

----------
>From: "Simon Barne" <simon_barne@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] Wotcher (that's Hi in British English)
>Date: SatSatApr Apr80820002000088:09 PM
>

> If anyone has tried to email me since Christmas (unlikely, I know), I
> have been offline. My laptop is now mended and I have a new email
> address. Greetings to all fellow cranks from south Sumatra.
>
> Simon Barne
>
>
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In a message dated 4/9/00 6:22:40 AM, acal@... writes:

>anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
>>get a grip on size of the problem

That's not what I said. I wasn't talk about the various languages of the
world. I was talking about the dialects of English and the fact that
non-Native speakers learn English in order to be able to communicate with
people all over the world. Encouraging dialectual fragmentation through the
development of regional Shavians only makes the problem of learning English
more difficult, not easier.

Ciao,
Bill Brawner

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In a message dated 4/9/00 11:13:02 AM, twojbrat@... writes:

>The International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) already does this, and linguists
>have been using it since the early 1900's. Why do we need another such
>writing system. You can download this script for free at the Summer
>Institute of Linguistics website, under "fonts." Dan Szczurek
>
That's not what I said. I don't understand why Shavians insist on
misunderstanding and misrepresenting other points of view. That certainly
does nothing to advance the use of Shavian in the world. Get a grip!

I wasn't talk about the various languages of the world. I was talking about
the dialects of English and the fact that non-Native speakers learn English
in order to be able to communicate with people all over the world.
Encouraging dialectual fragmentation through the development of regional
Shavians only makes the problem of learning English more difficult, not
easier.

Ciao,
Bill Brawner

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I am opposed to this. It is linguistically unsound to view all varieties of
English as mutually comprehensible. English is also socially unacceptable to
many people because of the abominable heritage of British colonialism and
American economic exploitation. A language is not just a set of words; it is
also a set of attitudes and a history. But this matter is more appropriate
to an international language forum. In my understanding the Shavian forum is
for people who want to reform the spelling of English as it is spoken now by
speakers. Dr. Daniel Szczurek, Anthropological Linguist
[Books on sociolinguistics cover this topic.]

----------
>From: "David Fox" <djfox10@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Wotcher (that's Hi in British English)
>Date: SunSatApr Apr90820002000085:23 AM
>

>
>
>>From: YDerwydd@...
>>Reply-To: shavian@...
> The strength, attraction and
>>beauty of English is that it is international -- it opens up the door to be
>>able to communicate with people across the world. And so encouraging local
>>Englishes and local forms of Shavian defeats the purpose people have in
>>learning English. They would be better off focusing on their own native
>>language. For this reason, I think we should encourage the development of
>>an
>>International standard Shavian. Do you agree?
>
> YES, YES and again YES! Nice to hear some sense in this group.
>
> [And anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
> get a grip on size of the problem by spending some time with "The Sounds of
> the World's Languages" by Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (Blackwells,
> Oxford UK and Cambridge Mass. 1996).
> For those determined to pursue this line, there is a font that claims to be
> able to represent any sound possible in any language - even alien ones. It
> runs into some quite predictable problems in reading it, but for what its
> worth it is called Lhoerr Normal. It is available on a site for Constructed
> Languages - sorry I have lost the address.]
>
> A toast to all lost causes!
>
> David Fox
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
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>
>
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Do you have a list of phonetic font sources?

Someone asked me this last week and I replied without answering
by asking what kind of phonetic font did he want, IPA?

I have several phonetic fonts but other than Shavian, I have forgotten their source.

I have completed a nice chart for pictographic monofon which I will
post next week. PMF is a minor modification of the Shaw alphabet that reintroduces historical roots for the letter forms.

As I mentioned earlier, I would like for someone to come up with a aesthetic version of the sound signs and link them to Unigraf ASCII characters.

Steve


On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:13:54 A.M.Callaway wrote:
>At 01:23 PM 4/9/00 +0000, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: YDerwydd@...
>>>Reply-To: shavian@...
>>The strength, attraction and
>[snip-a-bit]
>>
>>[And anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
>>get a grip on size of the problem by spending some time with "The Sounds of
>>the World's Languages" by Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (Blackwells,
>>Oxford UK and Cambridge Mass. 1996).
>>For those determined to pursue this line, there is a font that claims to be
>>able to represent any sound possible in any language - even alien ones. It
>>runs into some quite predictable problems in reading it, but for what its
>>worth it is called Lhoerr Normal. It is available on a site for Constructed
>>Languages - sorry I have lost the address.]
>
>I found something at http://www.io.com/~hmiller/Jarda/Lhoerr-uni.html - is
>that it?
>
>A.Callaway. Lost cause No. 38C5V48 rev. b
>
>- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ------- andy.callaway@...
>- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --------- acal@...
>- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
>


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The Summer Institute of Linguistics site is the best source I know for
phonetic fonts, and they would know others.

I am interested to see your PMF, Steve. I have been experimenting with
phonetic systems for dyslexic readers. Right now the Shavian we use doesn't
seem to work very well, because the letter forms are so similar. Thanks!
Dan

----------
>From: "Steve Bett" <sbett@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] fonetic fonts
>Date: SunSatApr Apr90820002000087:46 PM
>

> Do you have a list of phonetic font sources?
>
> Someone asked me this last week and I replied without answering
> by asking what kind of phonetic font did he want, IPA?
>
> I have several phonetic fonts but other than Shavian, I have forgotten
> their source.
>
> I have completed a nice chart for pictographic monofon which I will
> post next week. PMF is a minor modification of the Shaw alphabet that
> reintroduces historical roots for the letter forms.
>
> As I mentioned earlier, I would like for someone to come up with a
> aesthetic version of the sound signs and link them to Unigraf ASCII
characters.
>
> Steve
>
>
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:13:54 A.M.Callaway wrote:
>>At 01:23 PM 4/9/00 +0000, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: YDerwydd@...
>>>>Reply-To: shavian@...
>>>The strength, attraction and
>>[snip-a-bit]
>>>
>>>[And anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
>>>get a grip on size of the problem by spending some time with "The Sounds of
>>>the World's Languages" by Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (Blackwells,
>>>Oxford UK and Cambridge Mass. 1996).
>>>For those determined to pursue this line, there is a font that claims to be
>>>able to represent any sound possible in any language - even alien ones. It
>>>runs into some quite predictable problems in reading it, but for what its
>>>worth it is called Lhoerr Normal. It is available on a site for Constructed
>>>Languages - sorry I have lost the address.]
>>
>>I found something at http://www.io.com/~hmiller/Jarda/Lhoerr-uni.html - is
>>that it?
>>
>>A.Callaway. Lost cause No. 38C5V48 rev. b
>>
>>- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ------- andy.callaway@...
>>- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --------- acal@...
>>- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
>>
>
>
> Send FREE April Fool's Greetings to your friends!
> http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/redirects/American_Greetings.rdct
>
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> Install today:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/2344/6/_/54531/_/955339231/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>

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At 12:34 PM 4/9/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear Simon, Selamat pagi! Apa khabar? Apakah saudara tinggal di Sumatra?
>Saudara kerja di Indonesia? Saya Saudara teman Shavian di Seattle. Selamat
>tinggal! Dan

Try saying that with a mouthful of grapes... :-)

- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ------- andy.callaway@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --------- acal@...
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------

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At 11:57 PM 4/10/00 -0800, you wrote:
>The Summer Institute of Linguistics site is the best source I know for
>phonetic fonts, and they would know others.
>
>I am interested to see your PMF, Steve. I have been experimenting with
>phonetic systems for dyslexic readers. Right now the Shavian we use doesn't
>seem to work very well, because the letter forms are so similar. Thanks!
> Dan
Yes. I have the same problem. (Due to me getting old, apparently...) I have
trouble with the simpler characters, both remembering which are which, and
writing them legibly. I'm looking at QuickScript at the moment, which is a
sort of "Shavian Ver.2".

- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ------- andy.callaway@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --------- acal@...
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------

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