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Something I had noticed with Shavian I'd like to offer a thought on, if I
may: Shavian is supposed to contain every sound in English in single
letters, including dipthongs (incorrectly labeled "ligatures" in the
Shavian alphabet key, as far as I'm concerned), including every "r"
dipthong-- Except, it appears, "oor".... Am I mistaken, or is this the
only "r" dipthong one has to spell "u" + "r"? "Urge" is pronounced "rr",
not "oor"...

Any other observations?

D.M.Falk, aka Quozl...

I don't think Shaw intended the alphabet to be exhaustive. 40 characters is adequate to represent most of the sounds, but obviously not all the sounds that occur in all variants of English.

In my US midwestern English, "oor" tends to be "oo-arr" (i.e., ooze-array).

Lee

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Falk <quozl@...>
To: shavian@... <shavian@...>
Cc: Dennis Falk <quozl@...>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 10:47 PM
Subject: [shavian] Missing letters?: "oor"


>Something I had noticed with Shavian I'd like to offer a thought on, if I
>may: Shavian is supposed to contain every sound in English in single
>letters, including dipthongs (incorrectly labeled "ligatures" in the
>Shavian alphabet key, as far as I'm concerned), including every "r"
>dipthong-- Except, it appears, "oor".... Am I mistaken, or is this the
>only "r" dipthong one has to spell "u" + "r"? "Urge" is pronounced "rr",
>not "oor"...
>
>Any other observations?
>
>D.M.Falk, aka Quozl...
>
>
>
>



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>Uh-oh, we've got a serious problem here.
>
>Ross DeMeyere writes: >>Last week I received a letter from David Fox at
>the Friars in the UK. He brought to my attention that in the original
>reading key someone made a clerical error and swapped the characters for
>hung and haha.<< DeMeyere has then gone on, single-handed, to make a
>change in the Shaw Alphabet.

I was under the assumption that this was an official change that just was
not widely published. And since I don't like to make errors, I corrected
it
in my fonts. I was hoping to bring new information about Shaw Alphabet
to the forefront so we could bring the Shaw Alphabet in its original
intended form into the future without continuing to make an error.
I don't feel that I 'single-handedly' did anything but try to make
others
aware that we are making an error, and hopefully trying to change it
before
we actually get the script into Unicode.
On the otherhand, if the was just changed by the Friars, I will change
it back.

Ross DeMeyere



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I too am deeply troubled by Ross DeMeyere's attempted one-man
orthographical insurrection. I've always found it odd that "hung"
(being voiced) should be tall and "ha-ha" (being voiceless) should
be deep, but if this was due to a clerical error then I agree with
Bob Richmond that Kingsley Read should have had plenty of
chance to correct the error, and decided not to do so --
presumably for very good reasons. The appendix of Michael
Holroyd's biography of Shaw tells something of the confusion
surrounding the production of Androcles and the Lion. E.g.,

: The delay [of the publication of Androcles] had been largely
: caused by contradictory instructions from Pitman, Penguin,
: the expert Phonetician and the Public Trustee. Eventually
: Barbara Smoker [the specialist editor of the Shavian-alphabet
: version of Androcles] 'walked out in a huff' leaving Hans
: Schmoller, the publisher's master typographer, floundering
: among the hieroglyphics of 'the world's strangest type-face'.

Who was the erring clerk? Schmoller? That might make sense,
his specialism being typography rather than linguistics, but, as
far as I can guess, any other member of the team involved in
the production of Androcles would have been too phonetically
knowledgeable to have made such an error. Whoever was
responsible, I find it hard to believe that an error made in some
version of the reading key could have led to an error throughout
the whole book before being detected by some qualified
person involved in its production. Surely Read and others with
knowledge of phonetics would have been shown initial copy
and proofs of the bi-alphabetical Androcles and its key, and
could have ordered whatever corrections would have been
necessary, in good time, if they had seen fit to do so.

To my mind, the phonemes represented by "hung" and "ha-ha"
are anyway exceptional and marked, like the "glide" phonemes
"yea" and "woe", in that they don't belong to an articulatory
similar tall-voiceless/deep-voiced pair like all of the other
consonants on the top two rows of the Shavian alphabet table
(p/b, t/d, etc.). As such, they are learnt as exceptions to which
extra thought must be given when spelling -- and so the "clerical
error" (if that is what it is) is not very likely to result in idle spelling
errors on the part of the putative Shavian public.

From a purely mnemonic point of view, I find the traditional
arrangement of glyphs for "hung" and "ha-ha" the easiest to
remember: "hung", looping up, is a fish that has been hanged by
its fishy neck from a rope (head pointing upwards); "ha-ha" is that
same fish after it has been cut down from the scaffold, its head
stuck in the mud, pointing down, as it is laughed at cruelly by the
audience of the public execution. Please let us not debate
whether or not fish have necks.

Ross, you must tell us who David Fox is, and what sort of
organisation or place Friars is. Why haven't we heard of him
before?

There's someone else I'd like to consult: Sid (sidban2@...).
About a week ago he sent a message to the mailing list in which
he said he wrote to Kingsley Read for three years before his death.
I'd like to know, Sid, if Mr Read said anything to you about "hung"
and "ha-ha".

I'm in two minds about whether the glyphs for the two phonemes
should be reassigned: I think Ross's proposal is phonetically
sound, and represents the ideal arrangement; but, given that
Kingsley Read and others apparently chose to publish using the
system we've all learnt, and that virtually all of the existing literature
written in the Shavian alphabet uses that system, I at least want to
know a little more about why this was before casting my vote.
Let's have some more discussion on this.

By the way, does anyone know anything of Barbara Smoker, rebel,
vegetarian and professional campaigner? As far as I can tell from
Holroyd's Shaw biography, Smoker was 34 in 1957, which would
make her about 76 now. Is she in the land of the living, and can she
be contacted? She would surely have some opinion about this
vexing matter of laughing at hanged fish.

On tenterhooks,

Lionel Ghoti




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I think the weight lies with the published text of Androcles at this point. Maybe the logic isn't 100% pure, but this text establishes the norm for the alphabet.

I'm not sure there's anyone to make an "official" change. Changes in usage would have to arise from a consensus of the users, and should be approached very cautiously.

I'd vote to keep the alphabet "as is" until there's more information forthcoming. We need to know about David Fox and the Friars, and what their involvement is with the alphabet. For instance, on the "Corrected Reading Key" you have available, he's moved the "err" symbol up between "ice" and "oak". Why? There may be a reason, but it's not clear to me.

Making a change in the alphabet would almost require commissioning a new printing of Androcles, wouldn't it? Food for thought.

Lee

-----Original Message-----
From: Ross DeMeyere <ross@...>
To: Bob Richmond <rsrichmond@...>; shavian@... <shavian@...>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 8:11 AM
Subject: [shavian] Re: changing "ha-ha" and "hung"


>>Uh-oh, we've got a serious problem here.
>>
>>Ross DeMeyere writes: >>Last week I received a letter from David Fox at
>>the Friars in the UK. He brought to my attention that in the original
>>reading key someone made a clerical error and swapped the characters for
>>hung and haha.<< DeMeyere has then gone on, single-handed, to make a
>>change in the Shaw Alphabet.
>
>I was under the assumption that this was an official change that just was
>not widely published. And since I don't like to make errors, I corrected
>it
>in my fonts. I was hoping to bring new information about Shaw Alphabet
>to the forefront so we could bring the Shaw Alphabet in its original
>intended form into the future without continuing to make an error.
> I don't feel that I 'single-handedly' did anything but try to make
>others
>aware that we are making an error, and hopefully trying to change it
>before
>we actually get the script into Unicode.
> On the otherhand, if the was just changed by the Friars, I will change
>it back.
>
>Ross DeMeyere




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Attention Shavia,

This development is most upsetting to me.
I see both sides of this argument.
1) there was obviously some error...
why it wasn't corrected right away escapes me.
Read probably said the same thing,
'well, the damn things printed now, not a thing we can do...'
I also agree that the bulk of the printed samples use
hung and haha a certain way, therefore we have precedence.
2) on the other hand, as Read went on to his next project
he did correct the error in Shaw Alphabet by using the
ShawAlphabetHung as ha-ha in his new script, thus
while not admitting an error, correcting it for himself.
Me, being an idealist, and having some doubts about
the correctness of the two characters anyways, was given
a new piece of very official looking documentation on
an error and its correction, and I jumped on it (sorry)

I have deleted the font files on my site and will upload them
again later in the week, with ha-ha and hung in the positions
that the consensus of our little team of experts decides.
I personally am favouring the change, but also don't want to
be the only one providing information that is contrary to
what the others writing and describing Shaw Alphabet are
producing. So no matter which way it swings, I will be there.

Ross DeMeyere



----------------------------------------------------------

DeMeyere Design Incorporated +1 612 789 2052
1951 McKinley ST NE FAX +1 612 789 8028
Minneapolis MN 55418-4816 <mailto:ross@...>
U.S.A. <http://www.demeyere.com/>

----------------------------------------------------------



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I have scanned in the letter and enclosures from David Fox
and made a PDF file out of them that can be downloaded at :

http://www.demeyere.com/Shavian/DavidFoxShawLTR.pdf

Please read this...

Ross



----------------------------------------------------------

DeMeyere Design Incorporated +1 612 789 2052
1951 McKinley ST NE FAX +1 612 789 8028
Minneapolis MN 55418-4816 <mailto:ross@...>
U.S.A. <http://www.demeyere.com/>

----------------------------------------------------------



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Dear Members,
When I contacted Mr. Reed, the Shaw's alphabet had already been in use for
17 years. He had created QuikScript as an improvement. I do not think he
was happy with the results of Shaw's alphabet as there were problems in
understanding it. I learned QuikScript but unfortunately left the book in
Japan and as I did not use the script much in those days I forgot it.
Moreover, he was very excited about SoundSpell which I thought was quite
simple to write. If anyone has QuikScript or SoundSpell I would be
interested in hearing from that person. As far as the discussion now taking
place regarding the fonts of ha-ha and ng I have no strong opinion but from
prior experience with Esperanto I can point out that reforms can follow
reforms until you do not have a unified group. Frankly, I thought
QuikSkript was a more fluid script than Shaw's Alphabet. I think this was
one objection he saw in Shaw's alphabet and that was why he created
QuikSkript.

sidban2@...




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I will join the chorus that due to precedence in the body of work, that
"huNG" & "Haha" should remain as we have known it, and thus retaining
readability to all previous bodies of work published in same. I do,
however, would like to see Read's other alphabets presented as _addenda_
to Shavian, but neither changing nor replacing Shavian...

D.M.Falk




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Dear Shavia,

I couldn't have returned to the fray at a better time. It seems there is
unrest. I feel it absolutely necessary to make my opinions known at this
time.

I must address the apparent problem of the 'h' and 'ng' characters, and
hopefully settle the matter.

In my opinion, but quite seriously, the alphabet was published so and should
be left so. I mean, think about it; the first book was published back in
1960, and so, clerical error or not, the alphabet stands just the way it did
back then. We have no right, just because we are a community who knows not
of any other similar community, to change the alphabet because it does not
add up perfectly TO US. It is hardly a serious error anyway. It makes no
difference whatsoever to the learning speed of Shavian letters, and no one I
know, on the 'Net or anywhere else, has ever complained about the phonetic
inconsistency of the characters.

If we change the alphabet now, and with the current unknown status of
support for it, we will be risking any future for it that there could ever
be. Just as Mr Tanaban rightly pointed out, we cannot afford to create rifts
in the support, because if we do, we will be splitting ourselves further
apart, not bringing us closer together as we should be doing. Something as
insignificant as this 'problem' is simply not worth the trouble, rightly
noticed or not, as if we try to make a change, we will be making every
single seperate piece of Shavian literature ever written faulty and largely
incorrect, and at this time that is way too much to risk.

As when it comes to this idea of a 'vote', this seems to me like clear
short-sightedness. We are not taking into account the wealth of other Shavia
that may exist in their throngs outside the environment of the Internet. The
Shaw Alphabet is the Shaw Alphabet; at this point that is all we know for
sure. Shavian to them must be Shavian to us. Everyone has learnt it the way
it is, and no one has had any problem with the arrangement; if this
'corrected' chart had never been seen, we would have carried on just as
normal without a pausing thought to 'h' and 'ng'.

Let's just leave this little distraction and continue to set our minds on
the bigger, more important picture: the promotion of the alphabet. We must
take the alphabet as it is and now start to get it known, as was its
conceiver's intention. What would G B Shaw think if he saw his alphabet
split apart at the seams and lose all chance of ever taking off?

That's all I have to say about that.

Hugh Birkenhead


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