Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hi all!

This is the first time I've posted something here... I tried a short time ago but it didn't seem to work; never mind though. I'm just wondering if anyone would like any conversations in Shavian? (i.e. using a Shavian font with an HTML-capable browser.) It's always good for practice.

If so, jolly good - drop me a line! BTW, see my site (with Shavian stuff) at http://www.soundbox.freeserve.co.uk.

Hopefully I'll be hearing from you soon...

Hugh Birkenhead
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Evenin' All...

I thought you'd like to know, I'm currently working on a program that takes
english text in our standard alphabet, and translates it into a phonetic
equivalent. Once I've debugged it, I'll make it available.

BTW this is not an ad, as the program will be offered for free.

Toodle-Pip
A.M.Callaway
acal@...


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Hi! I would like a penpal who can teach me how to use the typewriter to correspond in Shavian Script. I know the script well enough but I do not understand how to send the script through e-mail. Also, I am not sophisticated about Unicode. If you explain this to me please explain it like this: first, do this, second, do that, etc. I will just follow instructions. There is a lot of vocabulary I am not familiar with so that is why I need someone to explain things clearly to me. I wrote to Mr. Kingsley Read for three years before his death and also was interested in his Quikscript and Sound-Spell. Sincerely, Sid sidban2@...
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Sid asks about how to e-mail text in Shaw Alphabet. The simplest way to do it is to compose the text in a word processor, using one of the Shaw fonts, and paste it into an e-mail document, and e-mail it. It will arrive in the default alphabet of the recipient's e-mail, looking like badly hashed English (or Klingon). The recipient pastes this text into a word processing document, and then changes the font to one of the Shaw fonts. (The three Shaw fonts are interchangeable for this purpose, and one may send from Macintosh to the Slough of DOSpond or vice versa.) If conventional orthography is mixed in with the Shaw Alphabet, one must work around it when converting the rest of the document to Shaw.

I must apologize for not responding to some notes about this subject last week. I was tending to my wife, who underwent a total knee replacement (and is doing very well).

Sid also raises the subject of Kingsley Read's later modifications of the Shaw Alphabet, which received only minimal publication because the Shaw estate withdrew financial support. I plan to post information about these later developments on my Web site when I can get a scanner working. Right now there are no Web resources for them.

As far as I know Unicode is of no help as yet, though it's been under development for several years. The Unicode site is valuable for its graphics.

Sid, if you - and everyone else who hasn't done it - will transliterate Shaw's curious document (it's on my Web site), I'll post it to my Web site. Please include your name (with permission for me to link to your e-mail address), your year of birth, and a brief description of your English pronunciation (such as where you grew up).

Bob Richmond
http://members.aol.com/RSRICHMOND/shavian.html

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The following files are available at my website for your perusal...

List member A.M.Callaway's "Shaw Script" Truetype font-- A nice
calligraphic font... :)

http://chaos.ao.net/~quozl/shavian/ShawScrp.zip

An original poem, "Heart of the Harem", in both Roman-English and
Shavian-English, newly-written by yours truly... *grin* :)

http://chaos.ao.net/~quozl/shavian/hrtharem.pdf

Enjoy!

D.M.Falk




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Unfortunately, I will be unable to communicate with any of you for
quite some time. My computer has (again) gone down, and so I am
writing this from school, on the last day of term. I hope that I can
get it all restored soon. Apologies for not being around.

Hugh


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Hello Shavia!

[summary : version two of fonts online and
a corrected shaw alphabet key has been found!]

First I would like to apologize for the length of time that it has
taken me to develop the gothic version of the font for Windows.
Most of the problem was in the naming of the fonts, so as you
will soon become aware of, I have renamed the fonts.
ShawRough is now Androcles, after the book I used to scan it in
from, and ShawGothic is now called Ghoti, after the much quoted
piece on the absurdity of english spelling by GBShaw.
The renaming will make things easier under Windows and will
simplify the font face= tag in HTML. (please, nobody shoot me.)

Last week I received a letter from David Fox at the Friars in the UK.
He brought to my attention that in the original reading key someone
made a clerical error and swapped the characters for hung and haha.

"The chart on the next page represents the whole system. It
differs from the published version in two ways.
One is a substantive change involving the right hand
symbols of the top two lines of the chart. In the original
version, [looping up] was for 'ng' and [looping down] for 'h'.
This is clearly a clerical error, transposing the values attached
to the two signs. Of the pair, the tall sign at the end of the top
line must be for 'h' (since talls are for unvoiced sounds) and
the deep sign at the end of the second line must be for 'ng'
(since deeps are for voiced sounds). This chart restores the
correct values"

I posted a .gif of this corrected chart at :
http://www.demeyere.com/Shavian/corrShawKey.gif

I have corrected the characters in the fonts... hung is still
accessed by 'N' and haha is still accessed by 'h' so you don't
have to go back and correct anything that you have previously
typed, but anything hand-written in the future will have to be
checked. There are new charts and writing/reading keys in
the new documentation PDF file posted to my site.
(for those of you that have been writing for several years this
will be a big change (Hi Bob!))

[to: John Jenkins, John Cowan, Michael Everson, and others
working on standardizind Shaw Alphabet for Unicode]
the representations of $U+E709/hung and $U+E713/haha
need to be switched...all other things equal

[to all font designers, and webmasters using shavian]
Same thing, the characters for hung and haha get moved
but hung is still accessed by 'N' and haha by 'h'.
And, when describing Shaw Alphabet on websites, the
documentation needs to be changed to reflect this.
(ie, in charts, like the wonderful chart on LionelGhoti's
site) If you are using DeMeyere-brand fonts, you just
need to change the font=face tags from (Shaw, ShawRough,
ShawGothic) to (Androcles, Ghoti).

I noticed over that past few months that there has been
a lot more activity on the web with shavian. I especially like
the work that Bob Richmond has been doing with the links
page, and Lionel Ghoti's site is quite nice.

Hope everyone is doing well, and expect to hear more
from me than you have in the past.

Ross DeMeyere



----------------------------------------------------------

DeMeyere Design Incorporated +1 612 789 2052
1951 McKinley ST NE FAX +1 612 789 8028
Minneapolis MN 55418-4816 <mailto:ross@...>
U.S.A. <http://www.demeyere.com/>

----------------------------------------------------------



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Dear All--
I'm currently still working on a children's picture book which would talk
about GBS's
unique views on the alphabet (and many other things) and utilizes a bit
of the Shavian
alfabet. My editor is interested, but still some work to be done. Will
keep at it---there is so much there in which children would find so
delightful Will keep you posted. Houghton-Mifflin is my publisher..

C.M.Millen (at irish@...)

Ross DeMeyere wrote:

> Hello Shavia!
>
> [summary : version two of fonts online and
> a corrected shaw alphabet key has been found!]
>
> First I would like to apologize for the length of time that it has
> taken me to develop the gothic version of the font for Windows.
> Most of the problem was in the naming of the fonts, so as you
> will soon become aware of, I have renamed the fonts.
> ShawRough is now Androcles, after the book I used to scan it in
> from, and ShawGothic is now called Ghoti, after the much quoted
> piece on the absurdity of english spelling by GBShaw.
> The renaming will make things easier under Windows and will
> simplify the font face= tag in HTML. (please, nobody shoot me.)
>
> Last week I received a letter from David Fox at the Friars in the UK.
> He brought to my attention that in the original reading key someone
> made a clerical error and swapped the characters for hung and haha.
>
> "The chart on the next page represents the whole system. It
> differs from the published version in two ways.
> One is a substantive change involving the right hand
> symbols of the top two lines of the chart. In the original
> version, [looping up] was for 'ng' and [looping down] for 'h'.
> This is clearly a clerical error, transposing the values attached
> to the two signs. Of the pair, the tall sign at the end of the top
> line must be for 'h' (since talls are for unvoiced sounds) and
> the deep sign at the end of the second line must be for 'ng'
> (since deeps are for voiced sounds). This chart restores the
> correct values"
>
> I posted a .gif of this corrected chart at :
> http://www.demeyere.com/Shavian/corrShawKey.gif
>
> I have corrected the characters in the fonts... hung is still
> accessed by 'N' and haha is still accessed by 'h' so you don't
> have to go back and correct anything that you have previously
> typed, but anything hand-written in the future will have to be
> checked. There are new charts and writing/reading keys in
> the new documentation PDF file posted to my site.
> (for those of you that have been writing for several years this
> will be a big change (Hi Bob!))
>
> [to: John Jenkins, John Cowan, Michael Everson, and others
> working on standardizind Shaw Alphabet for Unicode]
> the representations of $U+E709/hung and $U+E713/haha
> need to be switched...all other things equal
>
> [to all font designers, and webmasters using shavian]
> Same thing, the characters for hung and haha get moved
> but hung is still accessed by 'N' and haha by 'h'.
> And, when describing Shaw Alphabet on websites, the
> documentation needs to be changed to reflect this.
> (ie, in charts, like the wonderful chart on LionelGhoti's
> site) If you are using DeMeyere-brand fonts, you just
> need to change the font=face tags from (Shaw, ShawRough,
> ShawGothic) to (Androcles, Ghoti).
>
> I noticed over that past few months that there has been
> a lot more activity on the web with shavian. I especially like
> the work that Bob Richmond has been doing with the links
> page, and Lionel Ghoti's site is quite nice.
>
> Hope everyone is doing well, and expect to hear more
> from me than you have in the past.
>
> Ross DeMeyere
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> DeMeyere Design Incorporated +1 612 789 2052
> 1951 McKinley ST NE FAX +1 612 789 8028
> Minneapolis MN 55418-4816 <mailto:ross@...>
> U.S.A. <http://www.demeyere.com/>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------




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Another source of information about the alphabet is the following book:

Tauber, Abraham, editor. On Language: George Bernard Shaw. New York: Philosophical Library, 1963.

It's out of print, but worth checking your second-hand bookshops for. It has some information about the resolution of Shaw's will, as well as excerpts from the will itself, the introduction reprinted from Androcles, an insert that was distributed at a performance of "My Fair Lady," and a discussion of Shaw's alphabet versus the ITA.

(There is also some information in the book about Shaw's response to Esperanto, the international language, including correspondence with Reto Rossetti, a well-known Esperanto proponent. As someone actively involved in the current Esperanto movement, I was a little "miffed" to find out Shaw's poor estimation. He never was one to withhold his opinion!)

Lee Miller



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Uh-oh, we've got a serious problem here.

Ross DeMeyere writes: >>Last week I received a letter from David Fox at the Friars in the UK. He brought to my attention that in the original reading key someone made a clerical error and swapped the characters for hung and haha.<< DeMeyere has then gone on, single-handed, to make a change in the Shaw Alphabet.

I have no idea who the Friars may be, but neither friars nor broilers, much less us old stewing chickens, have the authority to make a change in the Shaw Alphabet.

It has always seemed odd to me, contrary to the rest of the Shaw Alphabet, that in the single pair of characters "ha-ha" and "hung" that the voiceless sound should have a descender and the voiced sound an ascender, and I'm not surprised to learn that an error may have occurred here. If however there was an error, it would appear that Kingsley Read did not attempt to fix it, and this seems odd given his careful attention to every detail of the project.

The entire printed Shaw Alphabet text of Androcles and the Lion, in all three type styles, as well as both sides of the Reading Card, are printed with "ha-ha" having a downward loop and "hung" having an upward loop.

The only other publication in Shaw Alphabet using the Stephen Austin matrices that I am aware of, Stanley Marx's printing of "Jabberwocky" in New York in 1963 (more about this publication in another post), uses the same convention.

Kingsley Read's later Quickscript retained the upward-looped "hung", while substituting an entirely different character for "ha-ha". Read's daughter Mavis Read Mottram hand-lettered both the Shaw Alphabet and Quickscript for the University of Reading's catalog of its Kingley Read archive in 1983, several years after Read's death, and retains the original convention also.

Making a change in the Shaw Alphabet thus contravenes the entire published history of the alphabet. I do not feel that either the present Shaw Alphabet community or the Friars has the authority to do this.

I urge Ross Demeyere to reconsider this proposed alteration, at this early time when it can still be undone, or at least to submit it to the entire online Shaw Alphabet community for approval before doing it. Meanwhile I will not support this proposed alteration on my Web site, and will if necessary change my present font-supported format to GIF graphics in order to prevent it.

Bob Richmond
http://members.aol.com/RSRICHMOND/shavian.html

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