Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Dear Andy, I grew up in Chicago, speaking Polish, Ukrainian, and Russian.
It's saying things without a mouthful of grapes that I find a real
challenge. My beloved mother tongue really works for people who talk while
eating. Daniel

----------
>From: "A.M.Callaway" <acal@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Wotcher (that's Hi in British English)
>Date: TueSatApr Apr110820002000086:44 AM
>

> At 12:34 PM 4/9/00 -0800, you wrote:
>>Dear Simon, Selamat pagi! Apa khabar? Apakah saudara tinggal di Sumatra?
>>Saudara kerja di Indonesia? Saya Saudara teman Shavian di Seattle. Selamat
>>tinggal! Dan
>
> Try saying that with a mouthful of grapes... :-)
>
> - .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ------- andy.callaway@...
> - A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --------- acal@...
> - `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
>
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Dan,

Thanks for the SIL lead and for your interest in PMF.

As a notation for dyslexics, PMF would have the same defects as Shavian.
PMF is little more than a slight modification of Shavian shapes to make them more
pictographic and more historical.

I was inspired by a comment that Kingsley Read made about the Shaw Alphabet.
He thought he had gone just about as far as he could go along the analytical route.

In all of his later notations, he abandoned the analytical characters and the principle
of similar sounds should have similar shapes and that compound sounds (diphthongs) should contain the shapes of the component sound signs.

PMF is a step beyond Shavian.

PMF is a little easier to learn than Shavian because most of the shapes remind you of their Roman equivalent. In most cases, a PMF shape is simply a streamlined or stripped down version of the Roman character. Arbitrary invention is kept to a minimum.

The shapes I introduced for [ck, g] in an earlier note are Etruscan or pre-roman [<, >].

The shapes for [dh, th] are simplified versions of eth and thorn. Read seems to have arbitrarily reversed these shapes in Shavian.

The shape for @ (schwa) is a rounded r as with Shavian. The consonant [r] is a squared r rather than a turned C. A word such as OTHER would be spelled rdR where r replaces the shavian 7-shape, the d is an eth without the cross, and R is a combination of r rounded and r squared which looks almost exactly like the capital R. The PMF D is the same as Shavian and is introduced as an abbreviated delta.

I think we need a good solid shape for the obscure stressed or extended schwa and the R does the trick better than the Shavian curly-cues. The word [her] is written hR.

The difference between RP (British) and American English on a word such as [or] is
the shape of the r. In RP it is curved and in American it is squared. To exaggerate the difference this could be sounded out as /aw-uh/ vs. /owe-er/ or [oar].

Most people [outside of this egroup] think that Shavian looks like "chicken scratches" and PMF has the same "look and feel."

Broad romic (e.g., IPA) has been used for the writing systems of a wide variety of languages. Shavian characters could be used to replace the Roman characters. The problem is that when one moves to a different language, the phoneme boundaries change. Sometimes the difference is so great that you cannot read a sentence aloud using your own set of grapheme phoneme correspondences and be understood by a native speaker. Check out Well's SAMPA site where he has tried to devise a system covering all major European languages.
--

On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:57:31 Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:
>The Summer Institute of Linguistics site is the best source I know for
>phonetic fonts, and they would know others.
>
>I am interested to see your PMF, Steve. I have been experimenting with
>phonetic systems for dyslexic readers. Right now the Shavian we use doesn't
>seem to work very well, because the letter forms are so similar. Thanks!
> Dan
>
>----------

>> Someone asked me this last week and I replied without answering
>> by asking what kind of phonetic font did he want, IPA?

>>>>>From: YDerwydd@...

>>>>[And anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
>>>>get a grip on size of the problem by spending some time with "The Sounds of
>>>>the World's Languages" by Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (Blackwells,
>>>>Oxford UK and Cambridge Mass. 1996).


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Friends, Is there an inherent incompatibility between making letter forms as
similar as possible for ease of learning for regular and older readers; and
making letter forms as distinct as possible for ease of learning by new
readers? I just throw this out. I never thought about it.
In any event, I am having good progress with school children who have
difficulty in reading and spelling both with modified Roman and Shavian
alphabets. This summer I will run a friend's child through Shavian. She's
sixth grade and can't spell or read well, though she's quite intelligent.
I will then provide her with a short Shavian-Conventional Spelling,
Conventional Spelling to Shavian glossary, so she can look up unfamiliar
words she comes across in reading, and look up words she needs to spell
according to their pronunciation. Shavian seems to work better than modified
English, which confuses her because of her past education all in Roman. The
letter "e" creates a panic attack, because of the many ways it's used in
Conventional Spelling. At this point it seems better to just divorce her
from the Latin alphabet altogether, and then to gradually bring it back in.
We'll see. All thoughts are welcome before the experiment starts.
I am writing a textbook on learning Shavian for conventional spellers.
It starts with learning the verse "God is love" in Shavian. Then we go on to
the rest of the verse "and those who live in love, live in God, and He lives
in them." You get lots of letters in one verse and can also read and spell
many other words, which I introduce as the new sounds in a word are
introduced. Anyone who wants a copy, e-mail me, and I'll send you a copy of
what I've written of the text so far. Also I'll include sections of my hard
copy Shavian Reader, which grows day by day.
I still transcribe a bit each day in my Midwestern American dialect. At
a later point, I'll ask permission of transcribers to add their work to the
Reader. I continue to struggle to be able to transfer my transcriptions
directly into the vault. I am, alas!, a computer idiot. Recently I updated
to Mac OS 9.0.4. This seems to work better with non-Latin scripts, and I
have hope I may figure out the transfer process some day. Please, be patient
with me.

If you want to see any of my Shavian texts, please e-mail me at:
twojbrat@...
and include your postal address. I can absorb the cost of most postage
and xeroxing.
Right now, I'm transcribing poetry like crazy, and plan a Bible
transliteration little by little. I did the Book of Jonah, because Orthodox
Christians read this book during Lent to emphasize God's mercy and
forgiveness. Also the parable of the Prodigal Son, which I am also
translating into several other languages. My foot was reconstructed last
Monday. One of the few things I can do is transcribe at the computer.
Time to go to bed. Greetings to all faithful Shavians! Dan


----------
>From: "Steve Bett" <sbett@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] fonetic fonts
>Date: SatSatApr Apr1508200020000810:06 AM
>

> Dan,
>
> Thanks for the SIL lead and for your interest in PMF.
>
> As a notation for dyslexics, PMF would have the same defects as Shavian.
> PMF is little more than a slight modification of Shavian shapes to make them
more
> pictographic and more historical.
>
> I was inspired by a comment that Kingsley Read made about the Shaw Alphabet.
> He thought he had gone just about as far as he could go along the analytical
route.
>
> In all of his later notations, he abandoned the analytical characters and
> the principle
> of similar sounds should have similar shapes and that compound sounds
> (diphthongs) should contain the shapes of the component sound signs.
>
> PMF is a step beyond Shavian.
>
> PMF is a little easier to learn than Shavian because most of the shapes
> remind you of their Roman equivalent. In most cases, a PMF shape is simply
> a streamlined or stripped down version of the Roman character. Arbitrary
> invention is kept to a minimum.
>
> The shapes I introduced for [ck, g] in an earlier note are Etruscan or
> pre-roman [<, >].
>
> The shapes for [dh, th] are simplified versions of eth and thorn. Read
> seems to have arbitrarily reversed these shapes in Shavian.
>
> The shape for @ (schwa) is a rounded r as with Shavian. The consonant [r]
> is a squared r rather than a turned C. A word such as OTHER would be
> spelled rdR where r replaces the shavian 7-shape, the d is an eth without
> the cross, and R is a combination of r rounded and r squared which looks
> almost exactly like the capital R. The PMF D is the same as Shavian and is
> introduced as an abbreviated delta.
>
> I think we need a good solid shape for the obscure stressed or extended
> schwa and the R does the trick better than the Shavian curly-cues. The word
> [her] is written hR.
>
> The difference between RP (British) and American English on a word such as
[or] is
> the shape of the r. In RP it is curved and in American it is squared. To
> exaggerate the difference this could be sounded out as /aw-uh/ vs. /owe-er/
> or [oar].
>
> Most people [outside of this egroup] think that Shavian looks like "chicken
> scratches" and PMF has the same "look and feel."
>
> Broad romic (e.g., IPA) has been used for the writing systems of a wide
> variety of languages. Shavian characters could be used to replace the
> Roman characters. The problem is that when one moves to a different
> language, the phoneme boundaries change. Sometimes the difference is so
> great that you cannot read a sentence aloud using your own set of grapheme
> phoneme correspondences and be understood by a native speaker. Check out
> Well's SAMPA site where he has tried to devise a system covering all major
> European languages.
> --
>
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:57:31 Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:
>>The Summer Institute of Linguistics site is the best source I know for
>>phonetic fonts, and they would know others.
>>
>>I am interested to see your PMF, Steve. I have been experimenting with
>>phonetic systems for dyslexic readers. Right now the Shavian we use doesn't
>>seem to work very well, because the letter forms are so similar. Thanks!
>> Dan
>>
>>----------
>
>>> Someone asked me this last week and I replied without answering
>>> by asking what kind of phonetic font did he want, IPA?
>
>>>>>>From: YDerwydd@...
>
>>>>>[And anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
>>>>>get a grip on size of the problem by spending some time with "The Sounds of
>>>>>the World's Languages" by Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (Blackwells,
>>>>>Oxford UK and Cambridge Mass. 1996).
>
>
> Send FREE April Fool's Greetings to your friends!
> http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/redirects/American_Greetings.rdct
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> http://click.egroups.com/1/2579/6/_/54531/_/955862379/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

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Where can I see a PMF chart, Steve? Got one ready yet?
If it's not computer ready yet, my postal address is:

Rev. Dr. Daniel Szczurek, Th.D., Ph.D.
7425 Ruby Drive, SW, Condo #D-12
Lakewood, WA 98498-5062
USA

If you have a print copy, I'd love to see it. Thanks!
/dAn

----------
>From: "Steve Bett" <sbett@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] fonetic fonts
>Date: SatSatApr Apr1508200020000810:06 AM
>

> Dan,
>
> Thanks for the SIL lead and for your interest in PMF.
>
> As a notation for dyslexics, PMF would have the same defects as Shavian.
> PMF is little more than a slight modification of Shavian shapes to make them
more
> pictographic and more historical.
>
> I was inspired by a comment that Kingsley Read made about the Shaw Alphabet.
> He thought he had gone just about as far as he could go along the analytical
route.
>
> In all of his later notations, he abandoned the analytical characters and
> the principle
> of similar sounds should have similar shapes and that compound sounds
> (diphthongs) should contain the shapes of the component sound signs.
>
> PMF is a step beyond Shavian.
>
> PMF is a little easier to learn than Shavian because most of the shapes
> remind you of their Roman equivalent. In most cases, a PMF shape is simply
> a streamlined or stripped down version of the Roman character. Arbitrary
> invention is kept to a minimum.
>
> The shapes I introduced for [ck, g] in an earlier note are Etruscan or
> pre-roman [<, >].
>
> The shapes for [dh, th] are simplified versions of eth and thorn. Read
> seems to have arbitrarily reversed these shapes in Shavian.
>
> The shape for @ (schwa) is a rounded r as with Shavian. The consonant [r]
> is a squared r rather than a turned C. A word such as OTHER would be
> spelled rdR where r replaces the shavian 7-shape, the d is an eth without
> the cross, and R is a combination of r rounded and r squared which looks
> almost exactly like the capital R. The PMF D is the same as Shavian and is
> introduced as an abbreviated delta.
>
> I think we need a good solid shape for the obscure stressed or extended
> schwa and the R does the trick better than the Shavian curly-cues. The word
> [her] is written hR.
>
> The difference between RP (British) and American English on a word such as
[or] is
> the shape of the r. In RP it is curved and in American it is squared. To
> exaggerate the difference this could be sounded out as /aw-uh/ vs. /owe-er/
> or [oar].
>
> Most people [outside of this egroup] think that Shavian looks like "chicken
> scratches" and PMF has the same "look and feel."
>
> Broad romic (e.g., IPA) has been used for the writing systems of a wide
> variety of languages. Shavian characters could be used to replace the
> Roman characters. The problem is that when one moves to a different
> language, the phoneme boundaries change. Sometimes the difference is so
> great that you cannot read a sentence aloud using your own set of grapheme
> phoneme correspondences and be understood by a native speaker. Check out
> Well's SAMPA site where he has tried to devise a system covering all major
> European languages.
> --
>
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:57:31 Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:
>>The Summer Institute of Linguistics site is the best source I know for
>>phonetic fonts, and they would know others.
>>
>>I am interested to see your PMF, Steve. I have been experimenting with
>>phonetic systems for dyslexic readers. Right now the Shavian we use doesn't
>>seem to work very well, because the letter forms are so similar. Thanks!
>> Dan
>>
>>----------
>
>>> Someone asked me this last week and I replied without answering
>>> by asking what kind of phonetic font did he want, IPA?
>
>>>>>>From: YDerwydd@...
>
>>>>>[And anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
>>>>>get a grip on size of the problem by spending some time with "The Sounds of
>>>>>the World's Languages" by Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (Blackwells,
>>>>>Oxford UK and Cambridge Mass. 1996).
>
>
> Send FREE April Fool's Greetings to your friends!
> http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/redirects/American_Greetings.rdct
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> http://click.egroups.com/1/2579/6/_/54531/_/955862379/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

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Evenin' All...

Well, after struggling with my compiler for three months, I've given up on
it, and bought the very expensive Microsoft version. Now I can draw screens
with ease. All this means that I should be able to write the new Phonetic
Translator a lot easier.

You may have noticed no new Translator was forthcoming, well that was the
reason.

Toodles.

- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ------- andy.callaway@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --------- acal@...
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------

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Why not try Perl? It should be able to do all that you want to do, and
with Perl/Tk, you should be able to do all the GUI things you need to do
without paying the big bucks?

Just a thought,

Stuart

At 00:29 04/17/2000 +1000, you wrote:
>Evenin' All...
>
>Well, after struggling with my compiler for three months, I've given up on
>it, and bought the very expensive Microsoft version. Now I can draw screens
>with ease. All this means that I should be able to write the new Phonetic
>Translator a lot easier.
>
>You may have noticed no new Translator was forthcoming, well that was the
>reason.
>
>Toodles.
>
>- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ------- andy.callaway@...
>- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --------- acal@...
>- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------
>
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Stuart Thiessen
4616 Hickman
Des Moines, IA 50310


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My grandmother learned to write her/our dialect of Polish in Cyrillic. She
thought the Latin Script looked like chicken scratches too. Besides,
Cyrillic was invented by a saint, so it had to be better. Sooner or later,
we all return to some kind of arbitrariness in writing systems. The only
people who I know that don't come to this conclusion are those who have
never heard a language from the Caucasus. I will look up the site you
recommend. Thanks! Dan

----------
>From: "Steve Bett" <sbett@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] fonetic fonts
>Date: SatSatApr Apr1508200020000810:06 AM
>

> Dan,
>
> Thanks for the SIL lead and for your interest in PMF.
>
> As a notation for dyslexics, PMF would have the same defects as Shavian.
> PMF is little more than a slight modification of Shavian shapes to make them
more
> pictographic and more historical.
>
> I was inspired by a comment that Kingsley Read made about the Shaw Alphabet.
> He thought he had gone just about as far as he could go along the analytical
route.
>
> In all of his later notations, he abandoned the analytical characters and
> the principle
> of similar sounds should have similar shapes and that compound sounds
> (diphthongs) should contain the shapes of the component sound signs.
>
> PMF is a step beyond Shavian.
>
> PMF is a little easier to learn than Shavian because most of the shapes
> remind you of their Roman equivalent. In most cases, a PMF shape is simply
> a streamlined or stripped down version of the Roman character. Arbitrary
> invention is kept to a minimum.
>
> The shapes I introduced for [ck, g] in an earlier note are Etruscan or
> pre-roman [<, >].
>
> The shapes for [dh, th] are simplified versions of eth and thorn. Read
> seems to have arbitrarily reversed these shapes in Shavian.
>
> The shape for @ (schwa) is a rounded r as with Shavian. The consonant [r]
> is a squared r rather than a turned C. A word such as OTHER would be
> spelled rdR where r replaces the shavian 7-shape, the d is an eth without
> the cross, and R is a combination of r rounded and r squared which looks
> almost exactly like the capital R. The PMF D is the same as Shavian and is
> introduced as an abbreviated delta.
>
> I think we need a good solid shape for the obscure stressed or extended
> schwa and the R does the trick better than the Shavian curly-cues. The word
> [her] is written hR.
>
> The difference between RP (British) and American English on a word such as
[or] is
> the shape of the r. In RP it is curved and in American it is squared. To
> exaggerate the difference this could be sounded out as /aw-uh/ vs. /owe-er/
> or [oar].
>
> Most people [outside of this egroup] think that Shavian looks like "chicken
> scratches" and PMF has the same "look and feel."
>
> Broad romic (e.g., IPA) has been used for the writing systems of a wide
> variety of languages. Shavian characters could be used to replace the
> Roman characters. The problem is that when one moves to a different
> language, the phoneme boundaries change. Sometimes the difference is so
> great that you cannot read a sentence aloud using your own set of grapheme
> phoneme correspondences and be understood by a native speaker. Check out
> Well's SAMPA site where he has tried to devise a system covering all major
> European languages.
> --
>
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:57:31 Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:
>>The Summer Institute of Linguistics site is the best source I know for
>>phonetic fonts, and they would know others.
>>
>>I am interested to see your PMF, Steve. I have been experimenting with
>>phonetic systems for dyslexic readers. Right now the Shavian we use doesn't
>>seem to work very well, because the letter forms are so similar. Thanks!
>> Dan
>>
>>----------
>
>>> Someone asked me this last week and I replied without answering
>>> by asking what kind of phonetic font did he want, IPA?
>
>>>>>>From: YDerwydd@...
>
>>>>>[And anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
>>>>>get a grip on size of the problem by spending some time with "The Sounds of
>>>>>the World's Languages" by Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (Blackwells,
>>>>>Oxford UK and Cambridge Mass. 1996).
>
>
> Send FREE April Fool's Greetings to your friends!
> http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/redirects/American_Greetings.rdct
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get your bargains at AndysGarage.com!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/2579/6/_/54531/_/955862379/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

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Really wonderful chart and explanation, Steve. It'll take me a while to
think about it and admire it. I have so much translation to do. I translate
into several languages, since I'm physically disabled. I had surgery on my
foot last Monday, a complete reconstruction, and that and the pain pills
have distracted me. What you sent looks like it has a wealth of ideas in it.

For me at the present time there is still one basic idea to Shavian or any
of the other systems: the modern English spelling system imposes an
unnecessary burden on students because of its irrationality. Students who
speak English have to spend too much time learning to read English, before
they can read for content. Students who are good with logical thinking have
had, in my experience, an especially hard time learning to read English,
since parts of it seem rational, other parts rational in another way, and
yet other parts completely irrational. My concern is for beginning readers.

We have discussed many topics here, as to whether there should be a standard
for spelling or whether one should spell exactly as one speaks. In either
case, the burden on young readers is very much less than that now put on the
elementary student by Traditional Orthography. Now, when a student sees a
word for the first time, they have no idea how to read it. Even if it looks
phonetic in some sense, it might be loaded with "exceptions" to any proposed
spelling rule. Students of all backgrounds are excited by content, not by
learning how to read. Often the labor and boredom of learning to read turns
off students to learning, before they ever get to content that might
interest and excite them.

Now we are doing a good work by creating a body of literature that can be
read by English speakers who learn the phonetic Shavian writing system. I am
working on transcribing things I like and things my children friends want to
read. Even if they have to go to school using the traditional spelling
system, they can learn Shavian in a short time, and spend some of their time
reading things they're interested in. The details of Shavian are
interesting. Too see a child find they can read something they love to read,
and to read it by themselves is wonderful for me. (If I'm asked to
transcribe another book about dinosaurs, though, I may freak out.) Children
can handle complicated material if they can read about it by themselves.

I thank and encourage all who have contributed to the volume of Shavian
literature available. Besides what fun it provides to us, it is a valuable
resource for children with whom I work. Our work may be idealistic, but it
still is of value in reawakening the desire to learn in the children I work
with. If, when all is said, done, and written, our answer is not the
ultimate cure for illiteracy, but just a little first aid--well, even first
aid has saved lives.

Thank you all for your work and interest. Anything you transcribe and either
put in The Vault or transmit to me in hard copy is a valuable contribution
to literacy. Rev. Dr. Daniel G. Szczurek, Th.D., Ph.D.

----------
>From: "Steve Bett" <sbett@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] fonetic fonts
>Date: SatSatApr Apr1508200020000810:06 AM
>

> Dan,
>
> Thanks for the SIL lead and for your interest in PMF.
>
> As a notation for dyslexics, PMF would have the same defects as Shavian.
> PMF is little more than a slight modification of Shavian shapes to make them
more
> pictographic and more historical.
>
> I was inspired by a comment that Kingsley Read made about the Shaw Alphabet.
> He thought he had gone just about as far as he could go along the analytical
route.
>
> In all of his later notations, he abandoned the analytical characters and
> the principle
> of similar sounds should have similar shapes and that compound sounds
> (diphthongs) should contain the shapes of the component sound signs.
>
> PMF is a step beyond Shavian.
>
> PMF is a little easier to learn than Shavian because most of the shapes
> remind you of their Roman equivalent. In most cases, a PMF shape is simply
> a streamlined or stripped down version of the Roman character. Arbitrary
> invention is kept to a minimum.
>
> The shapes I introduced for [ck, g] in an earlier note are Etruscan or
> pre-roman [<, >].
>
> The shapes for [dh, th] are simplified versions of eth and thorn. Read
> seems to have arbitrarily reversed these shapes in Shavian.
>
> The shape for @ (schwa) is a rounded r as with Shavian. The consonant [r]
> is a squared r rather than a turned C. A word such as OTHER would be
> spelled rdR where r replaces the shavian 7-shape, the d is an eth without
> the cross, and R is a combination of r rounded and r squared which looks
> almost exactly like the capital R. The PMF D is the same as Shavian and is
> introduced as an abbreviated delta.
>
> I think we need a good solid shape for the obscure stressed or extended
> schwa and the R does the trick better than the Shavian curly-cues. The word
> [her] is written hR.
>
> The difference between RP (British) and American English on a word such as
[or] is
> the shape of the r. In RP it is curved and in American it is squared. To
> exaggerate the difference this could be sounded out as /aw-uh/ vs. /owe-er/
> or [oar].
>
> Most people [outside of this egroup] think that Shavian looks like "chicken
> scratches" and PMF has the same "look and feel."
>
> Broad romic (e.g., IPA) has been used for the writing systems of a wide
> variety of languages. Shavian characters could be used to replace the
> Roman characters. The problem is that when one moves to a different
> language, the phoneme boundaries change. Sometimes the difference is so
> great that you cannot read a sentence aloud using your own set of grapheme
> phoneme correspondences and be understood by a native speaker. Check out
> Well's SAMPA site where he has tried to devise a system covering all major
> European languages.
> --
>
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:57:31 Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:
>>The Summer Institute of Linguistics site is the best source I know for
>>phonetic fonts, and they would know others.
>>
>>I am interested to see your PMF, Steve. I have been experimenting with
>>phonetic systems for dyslexic readers. Right now the Shavian we use doesn't
>>seem to work very well, because the letter forms are so similar. Thanks!
>> Dan
>>
>>----------
>
>>> Someone asked me this last week and I replied without answering
>>> by asking what kind of phonetic font did he want, IPA?
>
>>>>>>From: YDerwydd@...
>
>>>>>[And anyone who thinks that Shavian can be adapted to any language should
>>>>>get a grip on size of the problem by spending some time with "The Sounds of
>>>>>the World's Languages" by Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (Blackwells,
>>>>>Oxford UK and Cambridge Mass. 1996).
>
>
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At 10:00 AM 4/16/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Why not try Perl? It should be able to do all that you want to do, and
>with Perl/Tk, you should be able to do all the GUI things you need to do
>without paying the big bucks?
>
>Just a thought,
1. Someone else at this site has already given it a go. (Not sure what the
outcome was.)
2. I already know how to program in Basic. I don't know perl.

But thanks anyway. :-)

- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ------- andy.callaway@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --------- acal@...
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Dan,

Shavian and Shavian derivitives such as PMF (monofon) are really substitutes for shorthand and cursive writing. They differ from most shorthands in being linear and in lacking the usual ambiguity. Most shorthands underrepresent the number of vowel phonemes.

It sounds like you are searching for the best ITA ( initial teaching alphabet ). If the goal is to improve literacy - the ability to read and write the traditional orthography (TO), then there might be some utility in selecting a consistent spelling system that is close to TO rather than Shavian. The Shaw Alphabet was specifically devised not to resemble TO or the Roman alphabet.

The sentiment is best expressed in one of Mark Twain's essays where he argues that while we can appreciate foreing languages, any attempt to tamper with the spelling of our own language offends the eye.

(Twain-Simplespel) BUT YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE PHONOGRAPHIC SPELLING;
THERE ISN'T ANY WAY. It will always follow the SOUND. If you want to change
the spelling, you have to change the sound first.

Mind, I myself am a Simplified Speller; I belong to that unhappy guild that is
patiently and hopefully trying to reform our drunken old alphabet by
reducing his whiskey. Well, it will improve him. When they get through and
have reformed him all they can by their system he will be only HALF drunk.
Above that condition their system can never lift him. There is no competent,
and lasting, and real reform for him but to take away his whiskey entirely, and
fill up his jug with Pitman's wholesome and undiseased alphabet.

"Wan greit drobak tu Simplifaid Speling iz, thaet in print a simplifaid werd luks like the very neishan: and huen yu banch a hoal skwadran ov the Simplifaid tugethr, the spectacl iz very nirly anendurabl."

Twain's favorite alternative was Burns (1871) phonetic shorthand, a variation of the Pitman system. Since shortand did not look anything like TO, it could be appreciated and accepted.

Steve
--

On Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:41:26 Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:
>Really wonderful chart and explanation, Steve. It'll take me a while to
>think about it and admire it. I have so much translation to do. I translate
>into several languages, since I'm physically disabled. I had surgery on my
>foot last Monday, a complete reconstruction, and that and the pain pills
>have distracted me. What you sent looks like it has a wealth of ideas in it.


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