Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

From: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
Date: 2000-09-29 19:27:38 #
Subject: [shavian] starting new web page

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Hi Philip Newton!

Nice beginning! and nice to know about the Bible project - hope you can find
out more about Ethan.

One request - could you make the type size on your site bigger?

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee USA

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From: Daniel G. Szczurek
Date: 2000-10-02 00:21:44 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] (unknown)

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From:
Dr. Daniel Szczurek, Ph.D., Anthropological Linguistics
----------
>From: "Paige Gabhart" <pgabhart@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] (unknown)
>Date: ThuSep 28, 2000, 19:21
>


> Have we had a definition of "dialect" from anyone? In the past, I
> believe I tended to think of a dialect as primarily involving the
> pronunciation a speaker used. Is that too narrow? Should the
> definition also include such things as grammar and syntax?

Most linguists have finally admitted that "dialect" and "language" are
both socially defined terms and can't be defined in scientific ( except
sociological) terms. I go with the words "speech form" and "larger speech
community," because they tell what group I'm talking about. While people may
use different words than their age-mates, if they have higher education,
Labov's studies suggest that, when people are speaking informally, their
pronunciation reflects that of their age and region, rather than their
education. Of course, we speak differently to academic colleagues than to
our granparents.
So called "dialect" studies have studied grammar and syntax, as well as
pronunciation. Many of them focus on vocabulary items, as well.
In a famous study, Labov showed that people could not (above a random
statistical per cent) tell when the speaker on a tape was African-American
or European-American, even though they could tell the region that they came
from. The speech was casual and of normal speed. People's "dialect" also
change, when they speak more slowly.
> Although not totally apropos, I remember a story a friend of mine
> quoted some years back, which I enjoyed. During the Watergate Senate
> Hearings, Senator Sam Ervin, in his deep South dialect, asked someone
> to remember he was just a poor, country lawyer, and, therefore,
> unpretentious in his questioning of witnesses testifying before the
> committee. Of course, the joke was, that this "country lawyer"
> graduated from Harvard Law School and had a mind sharp as a whip. I
> believe he used his southern accent to disarm people.

Studies show that the "Southern" dialect of American English is
spreading northwards. Apparently it is not regarded now as the speech of the
uneducated. I, myself, love the Texas accent, partly because it solves a
problem with American English of the North. In "Northern" American English
the word "you" can be singular or plural or indicate people in general. The
form "y'all" disambiguates the singular from the plural, so I use it a lot.
I also love the sound of speakers from Texas area and wish I could speak
with it. What does that say about my attitudes towards language.
>
> Last Spring, while in Hilton Head, SC, I had the opportunity to talk
> with a woman from the South who had traveled about the country a good
> deal in past years. She was well educated and judging from her
> appearance today, I do not doubt she was very striking as a young
> woman. She complained bitterly of attending parties and other social
> functions at which people were quite friendly to her until she opened
> her mouth to express an opinion on whatever the topic of discussion
> happened to be. At that point, when they heard her southern accent,
> she said they seemed to assume she was stupid. She said that she had
> actually had people slow down their speech, as if they thought she
> would not be able to understand them if they talked at their normal
> rate. It made her her livid, even recounting it years after the
> fact. She also stated that she had never made any attempt to alter
> her accent, which she said she was proud of. I might add that the
> five or six people listening to her story all concurred with the
> appropriateness of her refusal to adapt her speech to a more northern
> environment. (I found her accent very pleasant.)

History (linguistic) has vindicated her! Her speech form is taking over the
North.

>
>>I am amazed at the things that people mispronounce because they
>>mishear them. My fourth-grade teacher corrected a girl in our class
> who said "chicken pops" instead of "chicken pox." I think no one had
> ever corrected her before because they didn't hear the difference. I
> hear a lot of people say "step foot" instead of "set foot" -- there
> is a kind of logic to it, but I think it's simple mishearing. A lot of
>>people say "hone in" instead of "home in." Some will argue these are
> correct --I'm not discussing grammar here -- but even if they are
> widespread enough to be "correct," I still think they arose from the
> mishearing of the original forms.

This is very hard to prove, unfortunately. In many cases, as you say, the
new form is logical. It's probably that logic that preserves a word, once it
does enter the vocabulary of speakers. All language is undergoing constant
change. So far scientists can see no reasons for why the changes take place
and are established in later speech. Historical linguists have proposed
rules of change, but some of them are diametrically opposed to others!
>
Dr. Dan
>

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From: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
Date: 2000-10-02 01:02:25 #
Subject: [shavian] dialect

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Who was it said that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy?

So for example Portuguese is a language, but Catalan and Galician are
conventionally referred to as dialects of Spanish though they are quite as
distinct from Spanish as Portuguese is. Similarly Occitan is called a dialect
of French. Dutch is a separate language, while the very similar speech of
adjacent portions of Germany is a dialect. Let's not even talk about Chinese.

I try not to use the word "dialect"!

One of the founders of modern linguistics - Bloomfield I think - invented the
word "skanko" for any piece of nonsense people commonly believe about
language. (The modern term "urban legend" is more general, but conveys the
same idea.) "Skanko" was never adopted. It isn't too late.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee

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From: Hal Fulton
Date: 2000-10-02 23:21:38 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: More on-topic -- starting new web page

Toggle Shavian
>
> Have you considered moving that to shawalphabet.org or shavian.org?
That is
> sort of what they were created for, I believe (well, I can only
speak for
> shavian.org, but at the moment shawalphabet.org just redirects to
> shavian.org).
>
> You're more than welcome to move your files to shavian.org, should
you
> choose to do so, and set up shop there. I think 10 MB of storage is
my limit
> there.

Thanks, Philip...

My tentative response is that I usually keep all my content on one
server, so that accessing from one page to another is sort of an
all-or-nothing proposition. There won't be subpages that you can't
get to because of the current state of the net between here and
there.

On the other hand, a link would be nice. Maybe even a mirror of
the content. Do you think it's reasonable to reproduce all the
content on the other site? Assuming I keep it down to a reasonable
level...

Hal



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From: Hal Fulton
Date: 2000-10-03 00:12:41 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: starting new web page

Toggle Shavian
--- In shavian@..., RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> Hi Philip Newton!
>
> Nice beginning! and nice to know about the Bible project - hope you
can find
> out more about Ethan.
>
> One request - could you make the type size on your site bigger?
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Hmm, weren't you talking to me rather than to Philip? Philip
replied to my post...

Anyway, assuming you're talking about my site, I'm not sure what
to do about the type size... unless I've made some kind of coding
error, 99% of the text is the "default" size (which can be set at
the browser end).

At least, it looks OK to me, using both IE and Netscape...

Hal



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From: Philip Newton
Date: 2000-10-03 10:25:39 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: More on-topic -- starting new web page

Toggle Shavian
On 2 Oct 00, at 22:19, Hal Fulton wrote:

> On the other hand, a link would be nice. Maybe even a mirror of
> the content. Do you think it's reasonable to reproduce all the
> content on the other site? Assuming I keep it down to a reasonable
> level...

Sure, why not?

I can't promise automatic mirroring, though, so if you change
something, I'd appreciate a note, and things should get moved over
(subject to free time).

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>

From: Steve Bett
Date: 2000-10-08 03:28:07 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: More on-topic -- starting new web page

Toggle Shavian
Hal and Philip

At the current time there is nothing at Shavian.org. other than a one
sentence welcome.

Why not add
http://www.egroups.com/group/shavian
as a way out?

Steve

--- In shavian@..., "Hal Fulton" <hal9000@h...> wrote:
at the moment shawalphabet.org just redirects to
> > shavian.org).
> > You're more than welcome to move your files to shavian.org, should
> >you choose to do so, and set up shop there. I think 10 MB of
> >storage ismy limit there.


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From: Philip Newton
Date: 2000-10-09 08:02:59 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: More on-topic -- starting new web page

Toggle Shavian
Steve Bett wrote:
> Hal and Philip
>
> At the current time there is nothing at Shavian.org. other than a one
> sentence welcome.

I know -- I wrote it. Any offers to provide content?

> Why not add http://www.egroups.com/group/shavian as a way out?

OK, I just did. Other links are welcome. I know some of you have web sites
already; do you want to be linked to from shavian.org?

Cheers,
Philip

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From: shavian@...
Date: 2000-10-16 15:17:40 #
Subject: [shavian] New file uploaded to shavian

Toggle Shavian
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /apps/windows/Rosetta.zip
Uploaded by : acal@...
Description : The new version of the Phonetic Translator

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/shavian/apps/windows/Rosetta%2Ezip

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

acal@...





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From: Andrew Callaway
Date: 2000-10-16 15:48:44 #
Subject: [shavian] At last! Rosetta

Toggle Shavian
Folks, you will notice that a new file has been uploaded. After a
long and painful labour Rosetta has at last been released!

This is a Beta test release, and as such is not yet fully functional.
In particular, the "Table Wizard" has not yet been done. Since this
release is available only in the files area of the Shavian group, and
since I have created a Shavian table, this is not an issue. However,
I know some of you have interests in spelling reform outside of
Shavian, but for the moment you will have to be patient. I will be
creating more tables later.

Bear in mind that since this is an early Beta, it will be buggy, so
if you want to try it out please remember this.

If you do want to try it out be my guest. I will welcome any comments
you have about it.

This release has been tested on Windows NT. I cannot guarantee that
it will work on Windows 98, and have not given any other platform
consideration at this point. If you are brave enough to try it on
Windows 98 I will certainly be interested to know whether you got it
to work! Eventually I want it to work on Win98, NT, 2000, ME. I won't
bother with 95 but if it does work, all the better.

There is a rather pitiful readme text file, which is all the
documentation there is at this point. I will be fleshing this out
over the coming weeks. I will welcome comments on what format you
would like to see the documentation/help produced in, such as Word
documents, PDF file or whatever.

One last thing. My sincere apologies for the enormous (5Mb) ZIP file.
Unfortunately, Visual Basic likes to include all these DLLs with the
installation files, and some of these are a megabyte in size. I tried
to crunch it down as much as I could, but only got it from 6Mb to 5Mb.

I hope you like Rosetta.

Andy



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