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I'm new to Shavian but find it fascinating.

Does anyone have (or would anyone like to create) a sample
holoalphabetic sentence, i.e., one which displays all the letters of
the alphabet with a minimum of duplication?

Two Latin examples:

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz.

Thanks!

Jon Zuck
http://surf.to/frimmin
frimmin@...



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On 31 Oct 00, at 23:45, Jon Zuck wrote:

> The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.

You're missing an S in that sentence, and your second "the" can be
shortened to "a". What you want is

The quick brown fox jumps over a lazy dog.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>

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--- In shavian@..., "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
wrote:

> What you want is
>
> The quick brown fox jumps over a lazy dog.

I stand corrected. But would you (or anyone else out there) venture
a Shavian equivalent?

jon
http://surf.to/frimmin
frimmin@...


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--- In shavian@..., "Jon Zuck" <frimmin@e...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
> wrote:
>
> > What you want is
> >
> > The quick brown fox jumps over a lazy dog.
>
> I stand corrected. But would you (or anyone else out there)
venture
> a Shavian equivalent?
The problem is, as I see it, if you use the philosophy of having
different spellings for different accents/dialects, the task becomes
nearly impossible. Once you have something written up, someone from a
different part of the world would say "Well /I/ spell that like
this..."

Good luck!
Andy



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Hi Jon, and welcome...

This came up in June, I think. Simon Barne brought it up, using
the term "pangram." (If you're using the web-based interface, you
can look it up.)

After a few days, I came up with one, pasted below. I made at least
one error, writing "xPk" for "work" (instead of "wxk"). Gosh, I
haven't typed in Shavian in so long, I'm not even sure that's right.

Anyway, see below.

Ciao,
Hal Fulton

--- In shavian@..., "Jon Zuck" <frimmin@e...> wrote:
> I'm new to Shavian but find it fascinating.
>
> Does anyone have (or would anyone like to create) a sample
> holoalphabetic sentence, i.e., one which displays all the letters of
> the alphabet with a minimum of duplication?
>
> Two Latin examples:
>
> The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
> Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jon Zuck
> http://surf.to/frimmin
> frimmin@e...




Here's a pangram (or holoalphabetic sentence) for you.

If you disagree with my spelling, or if I have made an
outright mistake, please let me know. But no flames,
please! :)

Opinion questions:

1. Are the abbreviations for the, of, and, and to considered
valid usages of the characters in this context? I think
they should be, though I don't think my text absolutely
depends on them.

2. Should the namer dot be required? I used it just in case.

Here goes:

"Arrays of chowder-hating Bohemians fear work, yet toil in air,
water, fire, and earth, all for a cup of coffee that a sergeant
brewed, surely a pleasure few forgo."

"DEz v cQdx-hEtiN /bohImWnz fC wPk, jet tql in R, wytx, fFr, n xT,
Yl fP a kup v kofI HAt a sXJant brMd, SUrli a pleZUr fV fPgO."

There are 91 characters used, including the dot but excluding
punctuation, as shown below:

/ACDEEFHIIJMNOPPPQRSTUUVWXYZaaaabbcdeefffffffg
hhiiijkkkllllmnnnnooppqrrrrsttttttuvvwwxxxyzz

Come on, somebody. Give us one that is shorter or more clever.
Preferably both!

Cheers,
Hal Fulton




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Something I've noticed is that EAT seems to be used much less often
than I would expect. In my dialect "General American?" We use a
long "ee" sound as the final sound in "-ly" adverbs, "-ity" nouns, "-
ing" participles, etcetera. From what British speech I've heard, it
seems to me that most Brits do too.

Yet all dictionaries that I've ever seen show an IF pronunciation for
those examples. Years ago I thought this was an institutionalized
dictionary mistake, that English pronunciation was actually using
long EE very comfortably and uniformly as a final letter, and it need
not be stressed for it to be clearly distinct from the IF sound.

How about this for a test? Say "seen, sin, sing" and "sin, seen,
sing" Does the vowel in sing sound more like that in sin or in seen?
How about the word city? Are the two vowels identical? Isn't the
first one *really* an IF, followed by an EAT? If you try to
pronounce the second vowel to match the first, doesn't it sound way
too dark?

Maybe this is just my Yankeeness (or my Yankihness), but I'm
interested in your thoughts here.

Does anyone have any examples of "Senior" version of Quickscript?
I.e., scanned examples, or webpages, etc?

I'd really like to see it.

Thanks,

Jon

In a message from Jon Zuck <frimmin@...>
dated Sun, 05 Nov 2000 16:45:12 +0000, my mailer made me see:

-> Something I've noticed is that EAT seems to be used much less often
-> than I would expect. In my dialect "General American?" We use a
-> long "ee" sound as the final sound in "-ly" adverbs, "-ity" nouns, "-
-> ing" participles, etcetera. From what British speech I've heard, it
-> seems to me that most Brits do too.
->
-> Yet all dictionaries that I've ever seen show an IF pronunciation for
-> those examples. Years ago I thought this was an institutionalized
-> dictionary mistake, that English pronunciation was actually using
-> long EE very comfortably and uniformly as a final letter, and it need
-> not be stressed for it to be clearly distinct from the IF sound.
->

In my usage of Shavian you will find that I use EAT as you would expect (in your examples above).

--
Scott Harrison

On 5 Nov 00, at 16:45, Jon Zuck wrote:

> How about this for a test? Say "seen, sin, sing" and "sin, seen,
> sing" Does the vowel in sing sound more like that in sin or in seen?

In my idiolect (British RP base with American superstratum), it sounds
somewhere between sin and seen, but probably closer to seen. However,
the vowel in seen is longer than the one in sing for me. I would have
written it with IF, probably under the influence of Roman orthography.

> How about the word city?

I tend to use EAT for final -y in words such as this (-ity, -ly).

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>

In a message from Gary Shannon <reboot@...>
dated Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:45:52 -0800, my mailer made me see:

-> Just a quick note to introduce myself, since I'm new to the group.
->
-> I first read Androcles and the lion in Shavian back in high school (1963 or
-> so), and was surprised when I ran across a shavian page yesterday and was
-> still able to (haltingly) stumble through reading it. I had thought the
-> alphabet had probably drifted into complete oblivion. I'm glad to see some
-> people are still interested in it.
->
-> Are there any computer programs that translate from the Roman alphabet into
-> proper Shavian? If not, as a programmer this sounds like an interesting
-> project to tackle. Since English spelling is such a mess I assume such a
-> program would have to be based on a master dictionary. (Perhaps with various
-> different acceptable Shavian spellings so that a piece could be translated
-> with either an American or British flavor.) At any rate, it's just a
-> thought, but I would be cool to be able to get quick, accurate machine
-> translations of all the great public domain classics like Mark Twain,
-> Dickens, Poe, etc. etc. etc.
->
-> --gary
->
-> -=<@>=-=<@>=-=<@>=-=<@>=-
-> Te audire no possum.
-> Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
-> -=<@>=-=<@>=-=<@>=-=<@>=-
->
->
->
->
->

Gary,

Welcome! Or maybe welcome back in a sense.

I am translating a bunch of things into Shavian and you can find them on my webpage at http://www.mithrandir.com and follow the links to either Software and Shavian or Language and Shavian. Note that I am translating things into Unicode text files or UTF-8 pages encoded with the Shavian at its current Unicode points. To do this I am using software and creating a master dictionary. I am currently concentrating only on my pronunciation, but the program I have written should be able to handle multiple variations. Note that my program flags words like "read" because it does not know which Shavian to use for it, so I must go through the text and note all flags and make a judgement call. I am not yet willing to invest in a syntactical/semantic parser for my translator so do it by hand.

If you have any favorites you would like translated please ask. However, I am not yet done with the Andersen tales yet and have not been able to dedicate any time to Shavian in a long while. So there will be a delay with whatever I decide to pursue next.

By the way, if people are interested in how I tackled foreign language check out the Andersen tale The Swineherd. I think this is probably the most appropriate way to handle things since Shavian is meant to represent English.

--
Scott Harrison

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