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Some really excellent questions here, Gary!

----------
From: "Gary Shannon" <reboot@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Subject: [shavian] Some Issues
Date: Nov Sat, 2000, 14:18






The case of the implied vowel:

The word "table" presents an interesting case in how to represent a vowel sound that is not written in Roman script. It could be argued that the implied vowel between "b" and "l" is a vowel sound of indefinite identity and could be rendered by some generic unstressed vowel character

Dan-- Actually the "l" is itself a vowel, the so-called "syllabic l." The Shaw script doesn't make allowance for this or several other "syllabics." There are also in English a syllabic "n," "m," "r," and "ng." As a result we are stuck with making up a vowel to stick in here, where linguistic studies show there really isn't an additional vowel. I would be in favor of adding a method of showing syllabics, rather than having to invent a vowel for these cases. Any ideas?

The case of the initial "a":

I have seen "ability" (or words with similar intial sounds) rendered with an initial "ado"

Dan--I always use "ado" in such cases, since the sound is an unstressed schwa. I think the reason the alphabet allows for both a stressed and an unstressed schwa is that, in English, the unstressed schwa is the result of moving the stress off another vowel, a vowel which can be determined from related words where the stress is on the vowel. English phonology regularly "neutralizes" vowels when they become unstressed. There is a question whether there is just one unstressed vowel, as the Shaw Alphabet allows for, or more than one "neutral vowel." This is the phonological reason for the existence of "ado." It's use warns the reader that the meaning of the word is related to that of other words that have a full, unreduced vowel in them. Whether this is a good reason to keep "ado" or not, I don't know.

The case of minutely different pronunciations:

When one boils a minute quantity of water for one minute, should those two versions of "minute" be rendered differently? My preference is to say yes, they should indeed be rendered differently. Some more ambiguous cases exist, however. "I worked to perfect my skills and create a perfect masterpiece." is such a case. Here "perfect" is usually pronounced somewhat differently as a verb than as an adjective.

Dan--I always write them differently, because they sound very distinct to me.

The case of dictionary order:

Has it been established what the cannonical order of the symbols is? If the dictionary were to be translated, in what order would the words be arranged? The present dictionary has related words close together by virtue of their similar spellings. ("able" - "ability" for example) The initial vowel sounds in these two words are different, however, and would be represented by different initial Shavian symbols. Is there any virtue in selecting spellings which are not strictly phonetic, yet which preserve information about the word, its origin and relatedness to other words? In other words, should "able" and "ability" have the same initial symbols in spite of not having the same initial sounds?

Dan--This is a very good question, to which I have never heard an answer!

The case of the extra "g":

The word "hungry" is pronounced "hung-gree", and not "hung-ree". There is an extra "g" sound here that snuck in behind our backs.

Dan--Linguists who write about English phonology say there is a difference between "ng" as in "sing" and the sequence "ng-g" as in "hungry." So I make the distinction. I do think that in fast speech, I don't usually keep the distinction, but fast speech is hard to analyze.

The case of drawing conclusions:

"Conclusion" is a good example of an ambiguous, or at least contested, initial vowel sound.
Dan--I think this is a case where the initial syllable has a "syllabic n." I don't think there is really any kind of vowel in there at all, but that the alphabet forces us to make one up. Once again, the syllabic question.


Who is Ian, and why can't he get along with the other children?

Dan--Good question! I ignore him, as I do most difficult children. It's obviously a compounded creature anyway, a kid with multiple personality disorder.





Rendering foreign names and phrases:

Dan--I do it according to my pronunciation, but this is a tough question. I pronounce Polish names as they would be pronounced in Polish, but am aware that few other people do. And I often have no idea how other people wil phonetically mangle Polish names. As a good illustration, I'd like to see how people write my last name in the Shaw alphabet--"Szczurek." And you thought "Von Weber" was a problem. My uncle "Miklaszynski" has no problem with "Von Weber, either."


Thanks for the good questions, Gary!

Dan Szczurek







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An intDestiN suJescan [F'm tEkiN a stAb At it tM sI hQ IzilI F kAn adapt tM it]. Az fR Az mF On trAnzlESun proJekts R konsDnd it wUd bI vXI litl trubl tM edit H glYsDI fFl v mF trAnzlESun prOgrAm n rI-trAnzlEt HOz wDks F hAv alredI komplItid.

-gXI

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 10:36 AM
Subject: [shavian] Suggestion: adopt quickscript's phoneme refinements...?

gUd IvniN.

V mFt nOtis samTiN strEnJ abQt mF speliNz in His pOst. HAt's bikoz F Am trFiN t amit H letDz [u], [x], [W] n [C], n riplEsiN Hem (rispektivli) wiH [a], [D], [ia] n [iD]. wiH HIz kAriktDz amitid, H Alfabet iz YlmOst Fdentikl (in tDmz v fOnImz) t /kwikskript - Onli H letD SEps rimEn H sEm. F Am YlsO amitiN H YlmOst anpranQnst letD [a] in bitwIn sam konsanants (Az /rId YlsO did in /kwikskript), sac Az in H wDdz 'pIpl', 'tEkn', 'prAtl', ets, t mEk H pranansiESn v wDdz mP kliD.

H rIzan F hAv dan His iz bikoz yftD rIdiN wot /Jon /zak sed abQt /kwikskript, F hAd t rizFn mFself t H fAkt HAt /rId hAd indId dan awE wiH H 'stres' fIcD v H skript bF mDJiN H letDz 'a' n 'u'. wan TiN HAt iz sDtanli trM iz HAt /SEvian n /kwikskript wD ritan bF H sEm mAn, H Onli difDans bIiN HAt /kwikskript hAz hAd H benafit v fIdbAk n prAktikal iksperimantESan, wXAz /SEvian hAz not.

hQevD F dOnt TiNk pIpl SUd swic t /kwikskript, not Jast bikoz it wUd bI a mAsiv cEnJ fP evribodi, bat bikoz H /kwikskript letDfPmz wD dizFnd t mEk H skript mP Izi t rFt At spId. F kansidD H /SEvian letDfPmz mac mP elagant eniwE, n mP Izi t inkPpDEt intM konteksts sac Az kampVtDz. Jast rimMviN HOz fP letDz wUd not bI eniwX niD Az big a trAnziSn t mEk Az cEnJiN skripts wUd bI fP HOz v as hM R Ylredi prafiSnt in /SEvian - fP igzympl, F mFself Am dMiN it rFt nQ, wiH litl trabl. but mP impPtantli, H letDfPmz v /SEvian R not H problam At Yl (sO fR), sO cEnJiN Hem iz not At Yl nesaseri.

sO t samDFz His saJescn: F pUt it t V Yl HAt bF amitiN HOz fP letDz (HAt /rId himself amitid in /kwikskript) n 'klOziN ap H gAps' wiH aHD /SEvian letDz, wI wUd briN /SEvian mP ap-t-dEt, n fDHD lesan H speliN difDansiz HAt kAn akD.

wot dM j'Yl TiNk t HAt? koments, saJescnz, flEmz, ets. R Yl welkam!

/hV


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FROM- Dan Szczurek
The Vowel "On"

----------
From: "Jon Zuck" <frimmin@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Subject: [shavian] My fellow Americans: Home Improvement and Ah, On, Awe
Date: Nov Sat, 2000, 11:13




I think I've got it.
After some consultation with my dictionary this morning, I finally realized the distinction between y,o, and Y. To be sure, I don't think I use AWE very much, my speech is a little bit flatter than that, but it is a distinct sound in fall, a very deep sound. I was confused because I had thought that AWE was midway between AH and ON, but I was wrong--AWE is the deepest of the three.

y Ah- is the broad a in father (which I think we all pronounce alike.) And its the a sound in hasta la vista (Tells you something about how difficult our language is if to clarify its sounds we have to go to other languages!)
o On- is the short o sound. If I'm understanding my dictionary right, this sound is pretty strongly associated with the Roman letter o. On, hot, not, etc.

Dan- I don't have "on" in my speech. "On, hot, not" are all spelled with "ah" for me.




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I've added the Shavian translation of Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart" to my page, and the translation of the first chapter of Edgar Rice Burroughs' "The Land that Time Forgot" is completed, but not yet formatted in HTML (should be done later today, I'm sure).

The URL is http://www.teleport.com/~fiziwig/shaw.html

As I translate more text with my new translation program the vocabulary in the glossary grows, and each new translation proceeds more quickly since it finds fewer and fewer unlisted words. The Burroughs chapter took about 15 minutes, for example.

One minor problem I've encounterd, and suggestions for a solution would be very welcome, is the case where certain words require the namer dot only in certain contexts. For example, if the text talks about a dog named "Spot" then the namer dot should be used, yet the word "spot" does not ordinarily require the namer dot. The program is not nearly intelligent enough to figure out when it might be required (it simply looks up the word in the glossayr and replaces it with the Shavian spelling). Short of programming an extensive artificial intelligence into it, I can't come up with an easy-to-use way to insert the namer dot where required by context. I suppose I'll end up having to proof read the translation and make the corrections manually.

--gary

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Hugh,
I have Outlook Express. As soon as I remember how I sent e-mail in Shavian before, I will start doing it again. I had brain surgery 6 weeks ago, and have been having worse seizures than before. Trying to figure out stuff on the computer at this point gives me headaches, and these make seizures most likely. (I have been an epileptic since I was in VietNam as a nurse.) Look for Shavian e-mail soon, when I get this refigured out. I know I can and should do my group mail in the Alphabet.
Thanks! Dan

----------
From: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Subject: Re: [shavian] Relaxing phonemicism (Was "eat" and "if")
Date: Nov Sat, 2000, 03:46





> A forum like this can serve as a "Shavian written language community,"
> in which people write phonetically and determine what the limits of
> intelligibility of their spelling is. If the community is large and diverse
> enough (and ours certainly is diverse!); and if communication is regularly
> conducted in Shavian, I believe, the compromise spellings will develop, as
> they have been doing in the languages I have worked with in the past.
> Shavian, like any other writing system, is not either all phonetic or
> completely uniform, Gary. It is a compromise between these two poles, as are
> all "phonetic" writing systems. People do not write just for themselves. At
> the same time, it's extremely hard for people to read and write in a writing
> system that bears no relation at all to their speech. Let's use the Shavian
> in communication, and allow the compromise to take place among us as we
> communicate.
> Sincerely,
> Rev. Dr. Daniel G. Szczurek, Ph.D., Th.D.
> Consulting Linguist, The Canadian Ladakhi Literacy Project
> >

F'l gO wiH His. t mI it sImz lFk H subJekt v stAndDdFzESan iz priti muc rApt up bF His pOstiN. F TiNk wI SUd kIp tYkiN in /SEvian n sI wot hApanz.

/dAn, dM V hAv an /html-inEbald mEl rIdD? lFk /QtlUk /ikspres, P sumTiN lFk it? F'm Just wundDiN if V kAn rId Yl His /SEvian flFiN arQnd...

/hV





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hF Yl!

His iz Just a mesEJ tM test H AtAtcment n fYnt fuNtSun v /QtlUk

ytacd iz A lOgO fP /pepsI-kOlA F mEd VziN /pEnt /SYp /prO.

/luks /lMkr

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The Second Shaw Alpahbet (aka QuickScript) has been created and
uploaded. It may have a few problems and a titled The Second Shaw
Alphabet in Conventional Alphabetical Order for Writer Reference (New
letters grouped with Best-Associated Traditional Letters) will be
uploaded to the texts section in a couple of hourse (it is in PDF
format).


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Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /fonts/windows/jerome.ttf
Uploaded by : frimmin@...
Description : Second Shaw Font

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/shavian/fonts/windows/jerome%2Ettf

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

frimmin@...





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Jayson, you beat me by about 15 minutes!

AAAAAAAAARGH! (but thanks for your contribution!)
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jayson Barber" <jaysonb@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 8:58 PM
Subject: [shavian] Second Shaw Alphabet - New Font Uploaded


> The Second Shaw Alpahbet (aka QuickScript) has been created and
> uploaded. It may have a few problems and a titled The Second Shaw
> Alphabet in Conventional Alphabetical Order for Writer Reference (New
> letters grouped with Best-Associated Traditional Letters) will be
> uploaded to the texts section in a couple of hourse (it is in PDF
> format).
>
>
>
>
>


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I had been working on the following today and after reading the e-mails
thought I would throw it in the mix. Because it is a work in progress and
intended for the general public, I modified it somewhat for this group.]

KINGSLEY READ AND QUIKSCRIPT

Kingsley Read worked to promote Shaw's Alphabet after the distribution of
Androcles and the Lion. A paperback version was printed. Read worked with
a number of English-speaking volunteers from around the world who began
using Shaw's Alphabet in handwritten correspondence to see how easy it was
to learn and to read and how well it enabled them to communicate with their
various accents.
After this period of testing the alphabet in actual use, Read began to see
that certain changes would improve the alphabet. All of the changes Read
made were carefully thought out and clearly improved the utility and, it
seems fair to say, the intrinsic beauty of the script. Read wrote a
twenty-six page manual entitled "Quikscript ITS ALPHABET AND MANUAL with a
general introduction to reformed alphabetic writings." The manual bears no
copyright date. Its price was 3s. 6d or 50 cents.
One might think of Shaw's Alphabet as the beta version of Quikscript. Due
to the wide distribution of Adrocles and the Lion printed in Shaw's
Alphabet and the relatively limited distribution of Read's Quikscript
Manual, in the years since Read's death and now with the burgeoning of the
internet, knowledge of the beta version of his alphabet has begun to spread
slowly, while Quikscript remains virtually unknown -- a result I believe he
would have been displeased with.
The willingness to promote the use of Shaw's Alphabet, which I have
encountered on the internet among its adherents, when its devisor had
revised and improved it, seems ill-founded. What would we think if in the
late 1940s, NBC had the technology of color TV perfected and ready for use
but decided to shelve it because some people had already seen a few black
and white broadcasts and thought them adequate. This would have made no
more sense than it would to continue to promote the initial form of an
alphabet with infelicities that became apparent to its devisor through
actual testing and use, when its improved descendent exists along with a
manual explaining many of Read's thoughts about the best way to use it.
At this time, knowledge of Shaw's Alphabet among the public is still
almost non-existent so it would not be much of a setback for true believers
to begin promoting Quikscript through the tool of the internet rather than
continuing to promote the beta version of Read's work because "We've
already learned it!" This makes even less sense than the United States'
citizens continuing animosity towards and lack of interest in the metric
system because they "already know the English system" and do not care how
the rest of the world measures things. They are correct that their fellow
citizens still use the English system. But in this case, virtually nobody
knows Shaw's Alphabet so there is no vested interest of any size. We
should promote the best alternative alphabet we have -- not the beta version.

COMPARISON BETWEEN SHAW'S ALPHABET & ITS SUCCESSOR -- QUIKSCRIPT

[This section is intended to discuss the differences between Shaw's
Alphabet and Quikscript. Unfortunately, it is not complete now so here are
some quick thoughts.]

1. The changes Read made enable the Quikscript writer to write in a more
fluid manner, without pen lifts, similar to cursive roman writing, because
more of the letters end at the base line or mid-line. The fact that
letters can be joined more easily has no effect on a printed form of the
alphabet. A few of the letters have an alternative that brings the pen
back up to the base line. Again, this is not a big deal in reading, nor
does it affect the printed form.

2. Changes and minor alterations to the alphabet:
a. "loll" is changed to foster writing from left to right.
b. "bib" and "gag" are altered to end on the base line.
c. "tot" loses the barb to make connections easier.
d. the letters for "thigh" and "they" become"fee" and "vow" respectively
(with "th" sounds given similar, simpler forms.)
e. "yea" made vertical with a loop at the top.
f. "wh" letter form added recognizing that many English speakers use this
phoneme. (the change is a barb on the "woe," a structural equivalent to
the barb turning "sure" into "church.")
g. "ha" is changed to mirror image of "peep." (rotated about vertical axis)
h. "eat" modified to make connection on base line.
i. "age" and "ice" remain mirror images of each other but are changed by
adding a loop at the top fostering left to right writing.
j. "up" is discarded and no longer looks so similar to "up." (I have not
missed it in my writing.)
k. "out" and "oil" remain mirror images, but they are simplied in form
with loops on top. (I always found these letters awkward to write.)
l. "ah" and "awe" are changed to the forms for "mime" and "none"
respectively. (I believe this change was made because they are sounds used
less frequently than "m" and "n," and are not as likely to be confused with
"ash" and "on." (a problem I noticed with the font I was using to read the
recent posts)
m. "are," "or" and "air" are discarded. Those sounds are made with
digraphs: "ah" + "roar," "awe" + "roar" and "age" + "roar."
n. "urge" is discarded and "array" is written as a digraph of "ado" + "roar."
o. "yew" is still written as a digraph of "yea" + "ooze."
p. "ear" and "ian" are discarded.
q. "measure" is altered to bring its tail back to the base line.

3. One of the most innovative changes Read made in Quikscript was to
permit the use of half-letters for the following consonants: "h," "t,"
"p," "d," "z" and "w." Read did not include "wh," or "y," but there is no
reason they should not be used in the same manner.

These half-letters join with vowels and other consonants very readily and
provide distinctive and elegant word-shapes for use in handwriting. Now
with the increasing ubiquity of computers and their flexibility, it should
be possible to use the half-letters with word processors as well.


[This was written fairly quickly, so I beg your indulgence for any errors
caused by haste.]


Paige


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