Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Thanks for bringing this up, Jon, and thanks for others'
comments.

I've been wondering about that ever since the sixth grade.

Dictionaries (American ones) tend to use a short i where I
would use a long e. Your example "city" is a good one
("cit-ih").

I've never heard anyone pronounce it that way, but there it
is in print, in multiple dictionaries... and if I tried
saying it that way, it sounded a little like an affectation
of a British accent. So I guess I always thought it was a
British hangover. But maybe I was always mistaken.

Hal



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Just a quick note to introduce myself, since I'm new to the group.

I first read Androcles and the lion in Shavian back in high school (1963 or
so), and was surprised when I ran across a shavian page yesterday and was
still able to (haltingly) stumble through reading it. I had thought the
alphabet had probably drifted into complete oblivion. I'm glad to see some
people are still interested in it.

Are there any computer programs that translate from the Roman alphabet into
proper Shavian? If not, as a programmer this sounds like an interesting
project to tackle. Since English spelling is such a mess I assume such a
program would have to be based on a master dictionary. (Perhaps with various
different acceptable Shavian spellings so that a piece could be translated
with either an American or British flavor.) At any rate, it's just a
thought, but I would be cool to be able to get quick, accurate machine
translations of all the great public domain classics like Mark Twain,
Dickens, Poe, etc. etc. etc.

--gary

-=<@>=-=<@>=-=<@>=-=<@>=-
Te audire no possum.
Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
-=<@>=-=<@>=-=<@>=-=<@>=-


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In a message from Hal Fulton <hal9000@...>
dated Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:23:02 +0000, my mailer made me see:

-> Thanks for bringing this up, Jon, and thanks for others'
-> comments.
->
-> I've been wondering about that ever since the sixth grade.
->
-> Dictionaries (American ones) tend to use a short i where I
-> would use a long e. Your example "city" is a good one
-> ("cit-ih").
->
-> I've never heard anyone pronounce it that way, but there it
-> is in print, in multiple dictionaries... and if I tried
-> saying it that way, it sounded a little like an affectation
-> of a British accent. So I guess I always thought it was a
-> British hangover. But maybe I was always mistaken.
->
-> Hal
->

Hal,

I just checked my Webster's Unabridged Encyclopedic Dictionary and city is pronounced /s/ /shortI/ /t/ /longE/ according to it. Luckily for me, it agrees with my pronunciation so I use it. I also have my Oxford dictionary but do not use it for Shavian since I am attempting to use my own pronunciation with my Shavian works.

--
Scott Harrison

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Harrison" <scott_harrison@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] newcomer


> In a message from Gary Shannon <reboot@...>
> dated Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:45:52 -0800, my mailer made me see:
>
> -> Just a quick note to introduce myself, since I'm new to the group.
<snip>
>
> Gary,
>
> Welcome! Or maybe welcome back in a sense.
>
> I am translating a bunch of things into Shavian and you can find them on
my webpage at http://www.mithrandir.com and follow the links to either
Software and Shavian or Language and Shavian. Note that I am translating
things into Unicode text files or UTF-8 pages encoded with the Shavian at
its current Unicode points. To do this I am using software and creating a
master dictionary. I am currently concentrating only on my pronunciation,
but the program I have written should be able to handle multiple variations.
Note that my program flags words like "read" because it does not know which
Shavian to use for it, so I must go through the text and note all flags and
make a judgement call. I am not yet willing to invest in a
syntactical/semantic parser for my translator so do it by hand.
>

Thanks for the info. I checked the web page but was not able to read any of
the texts in the browser even though I have a dozen or so different Shavian
fonts on my windows machine. I'm not familiar with Unicode, and your texts
just show up as a bunch of square boxes. However by cut and pasting the
text into MS Word it works fine with some of the Shavian fonts I have, and
not at all with others. Hmmm. Guess I need to dig up more info on Unicode
before I start doing any programming or translating :)

--gary

> If you have any favorites you would like translated please ask. However,
I am not yet done with the Andersen tales yet and have not been able to
dedicate any time to Shavian in a long while. So there will be a delay with
whatever I decide to pursue next.
>
> By the way, if people are interested in how I tackled foreign language
check out the Andersen tale The Swineherd. I think this is probably the
most appropriate way to handle things since Shavian is meant to represent
English.
>
> --
> Scott Harrison
>
>
>


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--- In shavian@..., "Hal Fulton" <hal9000@h...> wrote:
> Thanks for bringing this up, Jon, and thanks for others'
> comments.
>
> I've been wondering about that ever since the sixth grade.
>
> Dictionaries (American ones) tend to use a short i where I
> would use a long e. Your example "city" is a good one
> ("cit-ih").
>
> I've never heard anyone pronounce it that way, but there it
> is in print, in multiple dictionaries... and if I tried
> saying it that way, it sounded a little like an affectation
> of a British accent. So I guess I always thought it was a
> British hangover. But maybe I was always mistaken.
>
> Hal

In the Australian Oxford Dictionary it says city is pronounced sIti:
which is sit-ee. So it just goes to show that phonetics is like
dialects, pronounciations change in different parts of the world.

Jayson


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Hello.

I just came across this wonderful alphabet system last night
while searching for information about other types of fonts.

Being mildly interested in spelling reform ever since I saw John
Culkin's article about Unifon in 1981, I'm surprised I have not
stumbled across it before now! Well better late than never, right?

The Shavian letters seem much neater and cleaner than the ones
offered in the Unifon alphabet, and the use of the "Namer" dot is a
brilliant way to avoid the need for a whole set of lower case
letters.

I AM new to the system so please forgive me if I ask questions
that have been discussed to death before:

1. Why is it pronounced "Shavian" rather than "Shaw-vian". He
was not George Bernard Shae, after all.

2. Has anybody proposed a Scrabble game using the alphabet? The
standard Scrabble set has 100 tiles with, one assumes, the letter
distribution and scores reflecting the average distribution of
letters in English words. Does anyboy know of a study done of the
distribution of phonomes in English to better facilitate the creation
of a Shavian version of Scrabble?

3. One thing I enjoy playing around with is Flash animation.
Would it be alright if I uploaded a bit of animated Shavian text in
Flash (.swf) format to the files section?

4. In connection with the above, I am currently working on a
Flash animated presentation about the philosophy of liberty that I
plan on translating into several other languages, but I think I may
make Shavian my first transliteration since I can do it without a
translator.

Even though I am new to it, I can see the Shaw alphabet as a
most interesting idea whose time may be coming. The more it gets used
in different media formats, the more attention it could get. I think
I'd like to be a part of that.

Lux Lucre


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*delurk*

On 11/19/00 at 8:30 AM luxlucre@... wrote:

>Hello.
>
> I just came across this wonderful alphabet system last night
>while searching for information about other types of fonts.
>
> Being mildly interested in spelling reform ever since I saw John
>Culkin's article about Unifon in 1981, I'm surprised I have not
>stumbled across it before now! Well better late than never, right?

Welcome aboard! :)

> The Shavian letters seem much neater and cleaner than the ones
>offered in the Unifon alphabet, and the use of the "Namer" dot is a
>brilliant way to avoid the need for a whole set of lower case
>letters.

Indeed...

> I AM new to the system so please forgive me if I ask questions
>that have been discussed to death before:
>
> 1. Why is it pronounced "Shavian" rather than "Shaw-vian". He
>was not George Bernard Shae, after all.

The term predates the alphabet by at least 50 years, and refers to anything directly pertaining to Shaw, such as theatre, books, etc. Why is it "Shavian"? The "w" can be contracted to a "v" for such words, I guess... :)

This, of course, opens up the old "Shavian vs. Shaw" name debate, where the proponents of "Shaw" contend that was the first name used, thus it should be for the alphabet, whereas "Shavian" propononents (like myself) consider it peripheral to Shaw, as Shaw had very little to do with its actual creation, being that he bequeathed its creation in his will. He used Pittman Shorthand from about the Turn of the 20th Century onwards until his death in 1952.

> 2. Has anybody proposed a Scrabble game using the alphabet? The
>standard Scrabble set has 100 tiles with, one assumes, the letter
>distribution and scores reflecting the average distribution of
>letters in English words. Does anyboy know of a study done of the
>distribution of phonomes in English to better facilitate the creation
>of a Shavian version of Scrabble?

I don't think either of these things have been done yet...

> 3. One thing I enjoy playing around with is Flash animation.
>Would it be alright if I uploaded a bit of animated Shavian text in
>Flash (.swf) format to the files section?

If the file area is open to all uploads (it should), I don't see why not? I'd like to see it.

> 4. In connection with the above, I am currently working on a
>Flash animated presentation about the philosophy of liberty that I
>plan on translating into several other languages, but I think I may
>make Shavian my first transliteration since I can do it without a
>translator.

Again, would be interesting...

> Even though I am new to it, I can see the Shaw alphabet as a
>most interesting idea whose time may be coming. The more it gets used
>in different media formats, the more attention it could get. I think
>I'd like to be a part of that.

There have been a few Shavian projects done by several list members, including fonts, texts, GIFs/JPEGs, etc. The more the merrier...

D.M.Falk
(Not the moderator of this list, but a fan of cunstructed languages and alternate writing sistems...)





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--- In shavian@..., "Dennis Falk" <quozl1@e...> wrote:

> Welcome aboard! :)

Thanks much.


> > 1. Why is it pronounced "Shavian" rather than "Shaw-vian". He
> >was not George Bernard Shae, after all.
>
> The term predates the alphabet by at least 50 years, and refers to
anything directly pertaining to Shaw, such as theatre, books, etc. Why
is it "Shavian"? The "w" can be contracted to a "v" for such words, I
guess... :)
>
> This, of course, opens up the old "Shavian vs. Shaw" name debate,
where the proponents of "Shaw" contend that was the first name used,
thus it should be for the alphabet, whereas "Shavian" propononents
(like myself) consider it peripheral to Shaw, as Shaw had very little
to do with its actual creation, being that he bequeathed its creation
in his will. He used Pittman Shorthand from about the Turn of the 20th
Century onwards until his death in 1952.
>

Right, Ok, I was just curious about that.


> > 2. Has anybody proposed a Scrabble game using the alphabet?
The
> >standard Scrabble set has 100 tiles with, one assumes, the letter
> >distribution and scores reflecting the average distribution of
> >letters in English words. Does anyboy know of a study done of the
> >distribution of phonomes in English to better facilitate the
creation
> >of a Shavian version of Scrabble?
>
> I don't think either of these things have been done yet...

Could be an interesting project, especially if a an internet
capable program could allow people to play a game of Scrabble online
from all over the globe. It would really make one have to THINK in
order to perform well.

> > 3. One thing I enjoy playing around with is Flash animation.
> >Would it be alright if I uploaded a bit of animated Shavian text in
> >Flash (.swf) format to the files section?
>
> If the file area is open to all uploads (it should), I don't see why
not? I'd like to see it.

I have uploaded it to a new folder called animation.


> > 4. In connection with the above, I am currently working on a
> >Flash animated presentation about the philosophy of liberty that I
> >plan on translating into several other languages, but I think I may
> >make Shavian my first transliteration since I can do it without a
> >translator.
>
> Again, would be interesting...

And would be good practise for me too. I'll keep you posted.

> > Even though I am new to it, I can see the Shaw alphabet as a
> >most interesting idea whose time may be coming. The more it gets
used
> >in different media formats, the more attention it could get. I
think
> >I'd like to be a part of that.
>
> There have been a few Shavian projects done by several list members,
including fonts, texts, GIFs/JPEGs, etc. The more the merrier...

Absolutly, more transliterated items will tend to draw more
attention, and more interest.

> D.M.Falk
> (Not the moderator of this list, but a fan of cunstructed languages
and alternate writing sistems...)

A pleasure to meet you!
Lux


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Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /animation/shavian.swf
Uploaded by : luxlucre@...
Description : a simple text animation using Shavian spelling. You need a Flash player or flash-equipped browser to view it.

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/shavian/animation/shavian%2Eswf

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

luxlucre@...





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On 19 Nov 00, at 8:30, luxlucre@... wrote:

> 1. Why is it pronounced "Shavian" rather than "Shaw-vian". He
> was not George Bernard Shae, after all.

My guess is that it's from a pseudo-Latin form of his name, which might
be "Shavius" or something like that. But it might just be one of those
"English does weird things to proper names" things, like "Liverpudlian"
being the adjective for Liverpool, or "Glaswegian" for Glasgow. (Then
there's also "Hants", which is the abbreviation for Hampshire; it was
explained to me as coming from the Latin(?) form of the county's name,
Hantescire.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>

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