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From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2000-12-20 01:01:34 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...

Toggle Shavian
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Shannon <mailto:reboot@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...



----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Shannon <mailto:reboot@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


(snip)

wFl F agrI HAt "W" iz not Vsful Az defFnd, F kontinV t Vz it t stAnd fP "Ia" sins that iz a vXI komun sQnd. F kwescund HAt VseJ mFself, but fQnd Az F wuz prMfrIdiN "pit n H penJMlum", n rIplEsiN "W" wXevx F fQnd it, F sMn fQnd HAt F rIlI didn't lFk sIing "Ia" in HOz plEsis. sO wFl "W" mE not "propxlI" bIlYN in H wxds "sencxWn", P "histXW", F dOn't mFnd sIiN it HX At Yl. Hen agen, "VsiJ mEks it rFt" n if HAt's hQ pIpl wx t AkcMelI Vz it Hen it wxks.

AkSalI it duzant rIalI 'wxk'. akPdiN t V wun wUd rFt '/mAfIa' Az '/mAfW', '/SEvIan' Az '/SEvWn', 'sencUDIan' Az 'sencUDWn', rFt? but in HAt kEs hQ wUd V rFt 'brEnID', 'linID', 'silID'? HX iz nO wE v rOtisFziN H letD. bifP it iz menSand, it iz not kDekt t Vz 'C', Az HAt reprazents a rOtik loN 'i' sQnd (wic iz a verI koman sQnd in H lANgwiJ n iz listid in mOst rOtisFzd dikSanerIz' pranunsIESan gFdz), n nevD 'I' plus 'D' - it iz Just lFk 'X' n 'x' in His rispekt. sO His mEks 'W' YkwDd t Vz t sE H lIst. it duzant fit.

F YlsO dOnt TiNk V'v rIalI got H mEn pqnt v mF lyst pOst - 'W' iz not kansidDd t bI a fOnIm, wXAz evrI uHD /SEvIan letD iz.

jP RgVments R sQnd, v kPs, but not H tFp v TiNz HAt wUd konsxn H AvxeJ litxet rIdx. F konsidx mFself fXlI wel edVkEtid (pOst-grAd enJinCiN dIgrI) n wiT brYd rIdiN tEsts. but until subskrFbiN t His grMp F hAd nevx hxd H txm "rOtisFz", n sCIuslI dQt if mOst pIpl hAv evx hAd OkEZun t run akros it. if /SEvWn wx t bIkum wFdlI Vzd it wUd bI Vzd prinsiplI bF pIpl fP hMm suc iSVMs wUd bI konsidxd "Akademik nitpikiN".

agrId - HE probablI wUdant nO wot F woz tYkiN abQt. but F nO HAt H wFdD publik dizxvz betD HAn nonsans lFk 'W' in an uHDwFz famImiklI pxfekt Alfabet! let's get rid v it nQ bifP HE Ivan fFnd Qt abQt its igzistans!

Az fP H wxdz V menSund abuv, F wUd spel Hem Az folOz: "brEnWr", "linWr", "silWr", ets. wic speliNz F'm SMr R rYN fP sum pxfektlI vAlid rIson hOz eksplenESun wUd probeblI bI Ovx mF hed. :)

y. F TYt HAt's wot V'd dM. His SUdant bI OvD jP hed: H problam wiH His aprOc iz HAt 'r' SUdant rIalI bI Vzd t rOtisFz vQalz - lFk 'w' n 'j', it's OnlI Vzd At H biginiNz v silabalz. H OnlI pjUD, Opan vQal sQndz HAt kAn bI trMlI rOtisFzd in wun silabal, 'y' m 'Y', YlredI hAv sepDat rOtik letDz , 'R' n 'P' ('x' n 'X' R YlsO lFk His but HE hAv nO unrOtisFzd kQntDpRts); t rOtisFz 'difToN' vQalz P dIp vQalz lFk 'F', 'Q', 'O', 'M', 'U', ets, V SUd rIalI Vz 'D', bikoz H 'D' kQnts ifektivlI Az a silabal in its On rFt (sins it iz a rOtisFzd 'a').

hC'z anuHD slFtI difDant eksplanESan. pUt jPself in H paziSan v a spIkD v a non-rOtik /iNgliS dFalekt. unles HE R folOd imIdIatlI bF a vQal, V wil utD nO 'rrr' sQnd wen sEiN H letDz 'x', 'X', 'C', 'R', 'P' n 'D'; sO t V, 'mxdD' = 'muuda', 'kXfrI' = 'keefrI', 'fCfal' = 'fiifal', 'mRk' = 'myk', 'kPk' = 'kYk' m 'pDfekt' = 'pafekt'. H rOtik vQal kAriktDz lIv H letD 'r' t bI pranQnst wenevD it iz ritan, sO Hx kAn bI nO AmbigVatI wiH it. bXiN His in mFnd, pranQns H wxd 'fFD' - it kumz Qt Az 'fFa', wic iz igzAktlI Az it SUd bI, ifektivlI a tM-silabal wxd; hQevD, pranQns H wxd 'fFr', n it kumz Qt Az 'fF-rrr' (rimemnbD HAt H letD 'r' iz YlwEz pranQnst). but v kPs, hAviN a non-rOtik dFalekt, V simplI kAnot pranQns H 'rrr' in HAt wxd, sO V hAv t intxprit it Az an 'a' insted. hQ kanfVziN iz HAt!! H letD 'r' SUdant hAv t stAnd fP FHD 'rrr' P 'a', fP HAt iz trMlI dyft; if V Vz 'D' it iz pranQnst hQ it SUd bI t bOT rispektiv tFps v dFalekt - Az 'a+rrr' in rOtik dFalekts, n simplI Az 'a' in non-rOtik wunz. 'r' iz left t bI pranQnst H sEm in bOT. it's muc mP sensibal t Vz H inJInIas 'rOtik vQalz' pravFdid t avqd suc AmbigVitIz in kP konsants lFk 'r', bikoz Hen H wxdz HAt pIpal rFt wil bI pxfektlI leJabal bF rIdDz wiH bOT rOtik n non-rOtik dFalekts.

sO V kAn aplF wot F Just sed t H prAktis v stikiN 'r' yftD 'W' t rOtisFz it - it's a bit lFk stikiN 'w' yftD 'A' t mEk 'Q'. H fAkt iz HAt HX iz nO rIl wE v rOtisFziN 'W' At Yl - HAt's anuHD rIzan rF it's suc a dAmd Yfal kAriktD.

abQt H RgVmant HAt it lUks strEnJ t riplEs 'W' wiH 'Ia': His iz hRdlI a kEs fP kIpiN it. F'm SUD it wUd fIl Just Az strEnJ in H /rOman Alfabet t gO TrM riplEsiN 'x' wiH 'ks' - but it duzant mEk it enI les sensibal, Just bikoz it lUks strEnJ. it's OnlI bikzoz V'D nQ Vst t rFtiN 'W' in HOz plEsiz HAt it sImz strEnJ t Vz a propD kombinESan v letDz. indId, At fxst F dQnd it hFlI strEnJ (F Vst t vV it Az a stVpid prAktis) t Vz 'I' insted v 'i' in unstrest paziSanz - Ivan HO it iz fanImiklI kDekt t dM sO - Just bikoz F woz Vst t VziN 'i' insted bikoz F woz trFiN t rFt lFk /AndraklIz. but, Az F fQnd Qt, wiH a lital tFm F got Vst t H FdIa.

H sEm RgVment kUd, F supOz, aplFz t VziN "W". enI konvenSun Vzd konsistenlI wUd evencMelI lUk kPekt. on H oHx hAnd, in 200 jCz, wen /iNgliS prOnunsIESun hAz cEnJd signifikentlI H /SEvWn letxz wil nO lYNgx bI vXI klOslI rIlEtid t HX sQndz, n wI wil agen hAv a sistm v speliN HAt duz not kPespond t H wE H laNgwiJ iz spOken.

HAt iz YlwEz gOiN t hApan, nO mAtD hQ inJInIas H rFtiN sistam iz. but F'd ryHD hAv 200 jCz v sensibal, fanImik speliNz HAt wUd bI IzID t rivFz wen H tFm fP cEnJ fFnalI DFvd, HAn 200 jCz v wxsaniN kEos in QD YlredI dFD ritan sistam HAt wUd bikum Ivan les posival t pUt rFt HAn it iz nQ!

Az fP "hw" F pxsunelI find it t bI An RkEik sQnd. E wuz rEzd t prOnQns it in wxdz lFk "hwX" n "hwen", but fQnd Ovx H jCz HAt H distinkSun betwIn "wX" n "hwX" iz rXlI mEd enImP, n sins H identitI v H wxd iz YlwEz klC frum H kontekst, it iz supxflMus. n in prAktis F fFnd HAt H distinkSun is OnlI mEd bF pIpl v mF grAndpXent's JenxESun.

V mE pxsanalI bilIv HAt, n F kAn probablI undDstAnd wF, but H 'hw' sQnd iz not At Yl RkEik. it iz in fAkt pranQnst in menI difDant dFalekts TrMQt H /iNgliS-spIkiN wxld, suc Az skotiS, menI vDFatIz v suHDn m mPHDm iNgliS /iNgliS n menI amerikan dFalekts.

but V R rFt in HAt it iz not HAt impPtant fP mEkiN wxd mIniNz klC. F OnlI saJestid it Az a sensibal riplEsmant fP 'W', wic duz lital mP HAn get in H wE, n hAz nO fanImik kansistansI. At lIst a 'hw' letD wUd mEk fanImik sens.

F Am sxtenlI not RgViN fP H abOliSun v H sQnd, OnlI pqntiN Qt HAt it iz a sQnd F, pxsunelI, wUd hAv nO Vs fP.

OkE, fX pqnt. t bI onist F dOnt Vz it FHD! it woz OnlI an FdIa HO.

--gXI

/hV

From: Steve Bett
Date: 2000-12-20 04:10:50 #
Subject: [shavian] UNIFON

Toggle Shavian
STRESS

>I like the fact that Read erred on the side of represented speech as
>a tad less stressed than it is, rather than with an artificial
>clarity and stress on paper compared to what we actually say.

[SB]Am I correct in saying that Shavian cannot distinguish between
the
two sounds in HERder or SURfer? British h3:d@ American h3:rd@r
Shavian hDdD

IS UNIFON AMATEURISH? fire = fIr where I = /ai/ fFD not fFr

>The regularity of the alternation of vowels and consonants in
Shavian
>script is amazing. unlike the agonzing way we represent dipthongs
and
>trithongs When I visited the Unifon website, I see what is
definitely
>a more amateurish attempt at a phonemic alphabet than Shavian. All
>vowels are clear, single entities. Nothing represents the real
>laziness of speech, for instance, they represent "Fire" as fFr, end
>of story, instead of the subtlety of Shavian "fFD."

fFd would be /fai@r/. The British pronunciation would usually be f@i@

Malone's UNIFON has some lapses but I am not sure that the
representation of FIRE is an instance of one. A phonemic notation
does
not have to be all that precise. In this case the R has to represent
a rather broad sound category that merges several possible R sounds.

If you want to find a problem with UNIFON look at the way it handles
the long A and the representations of 'are' 'awe' and 'or'

Unifon merges [awe] and [ah] which means that [our car] has to be
represented as "aur caur." [xr kxr]

REFERENCE - The UNIFON table and key corresondences
http://www.unifon.org/fonts.html

Regards,

Steve


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From: C. Paige Gabhart
Date: 2000-12-20 05:48:30 #
Subject: [shavian] Shavian site

Toggle Shavian
/Jon:

TANks agin f /JarOm, F kAn rId H pOsts in /SEvIuG bF Jast cEGJIN H font. it's sac a rilIf AftD stragliN TrM H pOsts bifP.
j mE stRt t sins sam v mF frastrSuG wiT H /SEvIuG sFt. /hV n /gErI wil pOst t Ic aHD abQt "C" n "`" antil HX blM in H fEs. F sent a pOst jestDdE trFIN t eksplEG H bMtI v /ks t Hem n hQ i z kDsiv, `XAz /SEvIan zn't. it's lEk mF pOsts gO intM a blAk hOl. nObodI pEz inI ateGSan t ~a[ F'm rFtIN. i mE b bikYL F'm rEtIN in /ks n HE rIulI dOn't giv a krAp abQt i n wOn't Ivan tEk H tIm t kanvDt i t /ghOti. (sPI, didn't mIn t sQnd lFk pMr mI.) j sIm t b @an v H fV pIpl F'v eGkQntDd hM apriSIEts H imprMmants /rId mEd t /SEvIan `ic fFnulI rizultd in H bVtI n vigD v /ks.
~a[ F wUd lFk t sI z H divelapmant v sam prOgrAmz HAt wUd fYstD H lDrGIN n Vs v /ks. a kPs fP prI-skMl cildran, f instans. wan v prFXI rIzanz sO minI /iNliS-spIkIN stMBants nId rimIdIul rIdIN klAsz z bikYL v H dredful mAc bitwIG /roman letDz n /iNliS fOGImz. /sD /JEmz /pitman waz involvd wiT A proJekt VzIN A fOGImik Alfabet kYld H /iniSul /tIcIN /Alfabet. i waz dizFnd t mEk H trAnsiSan frum HAt Alfabet t /rOman IzI. AftD a gUd test pirIad, t minI tIcD'z sDprFz, HE fQnd H stMBants mEd mac fAstD progres HAn stMBants tYt bF tradiSanul meTadL. if a gUd prOgrAm kad bI pUt tageHD VzIN /ks, sam adveGcUrus pXants mFt bI indMst t trF i wiT HX cildreG. simpul teksts SUd YlsO bI pOstd oG H sFt t prOmOt rIdIN in /ks. (F'm VzIN "/ks" f kanvIGjans sEk. F'm not wedd t H nEm.)
F dOn't nO `X j got Vr kopI V H /ks mAnVul, bat i wUd obvIuslI bi vXI helpful f H prOmOSan v /ks if i kad bI dQnlOdd frum a websFt. F'm Qt v tFm nQ sO F mest stop.

tEk kX.

/pEJ



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From: Gary Shannon
Date: 2000-12-20 05:50:29 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...

Toggle Shavian
----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


(snip)

agrId - HE probablI wUdant nO wot F woz tYkiN abQt. but F nO HAt H wFdD publik dizxvz betD HAn nonsans lFk 'W' in an uHDwFz famImiklI pxfekt Alfabet! let's get rid v it nQ bifP HE Ivan fFnd Qt abQt its igzistans!

F'm wiliN t dM awE wiT "W". F dOn't komplItlI undxstAnd yP rIzunz, but H letx iz, Aftx Yl, sMpxflMes, n F kan dM fFn wiTQt it. :)

Az fP H wxdz V menSund abuv, F wUd spel Hem Az folOz: "brEnWr", "linWr", "silWr", ets. wic speliNz F'm SMr R rYN fP sum pxfektlI vAlid rIson hOz eksplenESun wUd probeblI bI Ovx mF hed. :)

y. F TYt HAt's wot V'd dM. His SUdant bI OvD jP hed: H problam wiH His aprOc iz HAt 'r' SUdant rIalI bI Vzd t rOtisFz vQalz - lFk 'w' n 'j', it's OnlI Vzd At H biginiNz v silabalz. H OnlI pjUD, Opan vQal sQndz HAt kAn bI trMlI rOtisFzd in wun silabal, 'y' m 'Y', YlredI hAv sepDat rOtik letDz , 'R' n 'P' ('x' n 'X' R YlsO lFk His but HE hAv nO unrOtisFzd kQntDpRts); t rOtisFz 'difToN' vQalz P dIp vQalz lFk 'F', 'Q', 'O', 'M', 'U', ets, V SUd rIalI Vz 'D', bikoz H 'D' kQnts ifektivlI Az a silabal in its On rFt (sins it iz a rOtisFzd 'a').

mF rIdiN spId iz getiN muc betx wiT prAktis, but F hAv t admit bIin thrOn Yf mF strFd wen F sI "pVr" speld "pVD". F kIp trFiN t mEk a tM silabl wxd v if, n it tEks mI a mOment t mentelI diskard H ekstra silabl n rId it az "pVr" rAHx Han "pV-D" wic sImz vXI difxent frum H wE F prOnQns it. insidentlI, F nOtis HAt F hAv a tendensI to drop vQelz HAt R unstrest t H pqnt v bIin vxcMelI sFlent, lFk H vQel betwIn "b" n "l" in "silabl". trFiN t pik H aprOprIet vQel iz problemAtik sins H sQnd, Az spOken sImz t hAv nO clC FdentitI. n indId in /rOmen speliN wI hAv "table" wX H fFnl "e" iz sFlent n nO vQel (P iz HAt "vQl"?) iz plEst betwIn H "b" n H "l". it sImz it SUd bI rendxd "tEbl" in /SEvEan".

hC'z anuHD slFtI difDant eksplanESan. pUt jPself in H paziSan v a spIkD v a non-rOtik /iNgliS dFalekt. unles HE R folOd imIdIatlI bF a vQal, V wil utD nO 'rrr' sQnd wen sEiN H letDz 'x', 'X', 'C', 'R', 'P' n 'D'; sO t V, 'mxdD' = 'muuda', 'kXfrI' = 'keefrI', 'fCfal' = 'fiifal', 'mRk' = 'myk', 'kPk' = 'kYk' m 'pDfekt' = 'pafekt'. H rOtik vQal kAriktDz lIv H letD 'r' t bI pranQnst wenevD it iz ritan, sO Hx kAn bI nO AmbigVatI wiH it. bXiN His in mFnd, pranQns H wxd 'fFD' - it kumz Qt Az 'fFa', wic iz igzAktlI Az it SUd bI, ifektivlI a tM-silabal wxd; hQevD, pranQns H wxd 'fFr', n it kumz Qt Az 'fF-rrr' (rimemnbD HAt H letD 'r' iz YlwEz pranQnst). but v kPs, hAviN a non-rOtik dFalekt, V simplI kAnot pranQns H 'rrr' in HAt wxd, sO V hAv t intxprit it Az an 'a' insted. hQ kanfVziN iz HAt!! H letD 'r' SUdant hAv t stAnd fP FHD 'rrr' P 'a', fP HAt iz trMlI dyft; if V Vz 'D' it iz pranQnst hQ it SUd bI t bOT rispektiv tFps v dFalekt - Az 'a+rrr' in rOtik dFalekts, n simplI Az 'a' in non-rOtik wunz. 'r' iz left t bI pranQnst H sEm in bOT. it's muc mP sensibal t Vz H inJInIas 'rOtik vQalz' pravFdid t avqd suc AmbigVitIz in kP konsants lFk 'r', bikoz Hen H wxdz HAt pIpal rFt wil bI pxfektlI leJabal bF rIdDz wiH bOT rOtik n non-rOtik dFalekts.

sO V kAn aplF wot F Just sed t H prAktis v stikiN 'r' yftD 'W' t rOtisFz it - it's a bit lFk stikiN 'w' yftD 'A' t mEk 'Q'. H fAkt iz HAt HX iz nO rIl wE v rOtisFziN 'W' At Yl - HAt's anuHD rIzan rF it's suc a dAmd Yfal kAriktD.

OkE, F sI wat jP getiN At. fFnelI :) F supOz F hAv hAd sO litl ekspOZx t non-rOtik dFelekts HAt wen F hxd wun bIiN spOken F tendid t TiNk v it rAHx az a spIc impediment HAn Az a nAcxel wE v spIkiN. but Hen F'm not a lingwist. At enI rEt, in lFt v His iSV F konkx HAt H "W" Sud bI dun awE wiT.

--gXI



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From: Jon Zuck
Date: 2000-12-20 20:48:10 #
Subject: [shavian] Many things (roman letters)

Toggle Shavian
Hello friends:

Once again pardon my use of the Roman script (although these letters are beautiful too). I have a lot I want to respond to, but very little time in which to do it. I'm on vacation, beginning (!) my Christmas shopping, and won't be writing again before the New Millennium.

Some of what I writing here I have said before, but I realize that some of my posts in Jerome were difficult to read or went off the page. So here's my attempt to "wrap up"
possible loose threads.

Hugh and others:

I'm not sure what the source of the spacing problems with Jerome is: I've been working on it for more than three weeks. I know in Word, some of the "from below" connections, eg, v/schwa, half-win/Earth, connecting Thither/Earth, etc. display properly only at some point sizes. In Outlook Express, in editing text that uses any half-letters, the cursor's appearance is thrown off by several points from where it actually appears. The problem with word-wrap not working seems to be something with quoted text in the Outlook Express, and also in the e-group's message pages. I wonder also if some of the problems may be related to slightly different language mappings in our browsers: ie, US English, Austrailian English, UK, etc, since I believe keyboards are slightly different in those countries. Also, it might be that Word and Outlook Express have some kind of idea of a minimum character width built into their design, and Jerome's half-letters are smaller than that or something.

I'm baffled by this, since Ghoti doesn't have these problems, and I actually used Ghoti as the base for creating Jerome (Hope you're not mad, Ross!). In the new millennium (yes, that's right, all you who had to jump the gun!) :-) I will try again, using Verdana as a base. Prior to November 25, I had never even touched a font creator before, so I'm really brand-new to all of this. To top it off, Jerome has goals that I'm not sure any English font ever created before has had to achieve: Presenting 62 (!) language characters of widely varying widths, for cursive connections (no spacing between letters when possible), and those not just on the bottom or top line, as in present script fonts, but also sometimes overlapping slightly for connections from below(!)

So Ross, Lionel, and any other Shavian font creators, I welcome your help here, if you're willing. I'm not proud, I'm desperate!

The reason why I didn't provide a Ghoti or other First Shaw transliteration beneath my posts in Jerome was because of a feature of Jerome which I thought was clear, but apparently wasn't: The mapping of Jerome was designed to be 100% compatible with the First Shaw alphabet when posts are restricted to the letters which are in both alphabets. Hence, it's a simple matter to highlight text in the unfamiliar font, paste it into a word processor, and change to font to something more familiar. Except for when I used Whitewheat, (or the show-off Shakespeare example with half-letters), instantaneous conversion to First Shaw is available in just a few clicks this way. Since I'm so new to Shavian, I often transliterate to a plain Roman font when posts are very large, since I still find reading Shavian extremely difficult.

Final (yeah right!) thoughts on Ian and Whitewheat. Hugh, you do make a case for the non-phonemic status of Ian. Yet, I don't think you make a case for it being useless. Besides, if Ear is a phoneme, and I've discussed before it's huge range of sounds from "ee-ur" to "ih-uh" in the American South, doesn't it make sense for the non-R part of it to also have it's own place in the alphabet? If there's an Are, there's an Ah, if there's an Or, there's an Awe, etc. If there's an Ear, there must be an Ian, otherwise the logical symmetry is disturbed.

Not what's really different about Ian, is that we usually use it to describe the vowels in two unstressed syllables, as in Shav-ee-an or Shav-i-an. As such, it may seem inappropriate to some to some to have one glyph over two syllables. However, I like the idea. Perhaps though it would be less controversial when used as a glide off a stressed syllable, such as really and idea, rWlI, FdW. Which suggests the rapidity of the first sound and the subtlety of the second. Personally, I rWlI like it in both contexts. The very worst that can be said about it is that it's more a shorthand character than a traditional phoneme, but what's wrong with that? I regard Ian a wonderful little surprise in the Shavian alphabet, akin to an "Easter egg" in a computer program.

Gary,

Whitewheat "wh" is a sound I don't think I use unless I'm specifically thinking about. I hardly ever hear it. However, for some people, millions of them, it's a vital distinction between which and witch. Paige impressed on me the importance of including it in the Second Shaw mapping.

Hugh, instead of purging Ian from the First Shaw alphabet, why not just add Whitewheat to it? I have it on the grave accent key in the Jerome font. If there was a move to include it in the First Shaw fonts, though, it could go into any unused space, even cap B, cap K, cap L. There's room for 52 characters on the 26 letter keys.

The guiding principle I finally settled in creating the Second Shaw map, was to include everything, whether on not everyone used it all or liked it all, for example, even two Quickscript letters that are throwbacks to Roman X. Use is a personal thing, but availability is not. I even included two new letter-forms, created by Paige himself, and tested over years.

All:
A quick thought about stress: We often tend to think of the difference of vowels in terms solely of quality, but there is what's called agogic stress: duration. It seems that Read favored If whenever the "ee" or "ih" sound was of a very short duration, hence the -iti, -ali endings, etc. When it's understood that the difference is more of agogic stress than of accented syllables or the shape of the vowel formed in the mouth, I think a lot of our disagreement about using If and Eat might be resolved. That's really what I meant by the crack about "American hillbilly" accents. For instance, the "Texas drawl" in the Dallas area extends vowels sounds several times their normal durations to most people's speech. I think to write /SEvIan instead of /SEvWn suggests that drawl. BTW, I grew up in Texas, but on the Mexican border, very rhotic general American accent.

Gary,

Your site is terrific. I love it, but I still can't read Shavian very well. I was wondering if you might consider posting some simpler texts, even children's texts for some who are still getting used to it? For instance, I might be ready to take on "Peter Rabbit," but I'm intimidated as hell by "The Pit and the Pendulum!"

Everyone, I'm going to make one more post, a key to the Second Shaw alphabet, which I should've posted at the time I announced the new Jerome font, but it wasn't ready then. I hope you find it useful.
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

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From: shavian@...
Date: 2000-12-20 20:57:43 #
Subject: [shavian] New file uploaded to shavian

Toggle Shavian
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /Reference/Second Shaw.htm
Uploaded by : frimmin@...
Description : Please read. This is my Key to the Second Shaw alphabet, designed for explaining it to those already familiar with First Shaw.

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/shavian/Reference/Second+Shaw%2Ehtm

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

frimmin@...





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From: shavian@...
Date: 2000-12-20 21:07:39 #
Subject: [shavian] New file uploaded to shavian

Toggle Shavian
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /Reference/Second Shaw.htm
Uploaded by : frimmin@...
Description : Please read. This is a key I created for explaining the Second Shaw alphabet in depth to those familiar with First Shaw.

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/shavian/Reference/Second+Shaw%2Ehtm

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

frimmin@...





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From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2000-12-20 23:28:05 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Many things (roman letters)

Toggle Shavian
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Zuck <mailto:frimmin@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:57 PM
Subject: [shavian] Many things (roman letters)

[big snip]

Final (yeah right!) thoughts on Ian and Whitewheat. Hugh, you do make a case for the non-phonemic status of Ian. Yet, I don't think you make a case for it being useless. Besides, if Ear is a phoneme, and I've discussed before it's huge range of sounds from "ee-ur" to "ih-uh" in the American South, doesn't it make sense for the non-R part of it to also have it's own place in the alphabet? If there's an Are, there's an Ah, if there's an Or, there's an Awe, etc. If there's an Ear, there must be an Ian, otherwise the logical symmetry is disturbed.

'Ear' can only represent a long rhoticised 'if' sound (as included in the majority of Dictionary pronunciation guides). That is simply the phoneme it represents - it is not a convenient ligature. It is in exactly the same boat as 'err' and 'air' - it does not have a non-rhotic variant in Shavian. Mind you, the defence of 'ian' on the grounds that it could be used to represent a non-rhotic long 'if' sound is probably the most sensible.

There is no Shavian letter for a long 'up' sound (non-R form of 'err'), nor for a long 'egg' sound (non-R form of 'air'), even though those sounds are occasionally uttered in English - there is absolutely no reason to have a symbol for a sound that is only uttered once in ten thousand words! The same goes for the long 'if' sound (non-R form of 'ear') - it is uttered very rarely indeed. And that's only for the few dialects that actually use this sound at all - the majority of dialects NEVER use it! So how can this be justification for a Shavian letter just for this incredibly rare sound?

Not what's really different about Ian, is that we usually use it to describe the vowels in two unstressed syllables, as in Shav-ee-an or Shav-i-an. As such, it may seem inappropriate to some to some to have one glyph over two syllables. However, I like the idea. Perhaps though it would be less controversial when used as a glide off a stressed syllable, such as really and idea, rWlI, FdW. Which suggests the rapidity of the first sound and the subtlety of the second. Personally, I rWlI like it in both contexts. The very worst that can be said about it is that it's more a shorthand character than a traditional phoneme, but what's wrong with that? I regard Ian a wonderful little surprise in the Shavian alphabet, akin to an "Easter egg" in a computer program.

A wonderful surprise?? More of a skeleton in the cupboard, surely!! :) It's impossible to rhoticise it without using 'roar' (and I've already argued why that is a practice to be avoided), it's the only phonemically unjustified letter of them all, and besides, no one seems to be able to decide even what sound or combination of sounds it's supposed to represent!! Not looking good for poor old Ian, is it? :)

Gary,

Whitewheat "wh" is a sound I don't think I use unless I'm specifically thinking about. I hardly ever hear it. However, for some people, millions of them, it's a vital distinction between which and witch. Paige impressed on me the importance of including it in the Second Shaw mapping.

What was his argument? So far, Gary's argument that it is not vitally important to the meaning of words to have a letter for 'wh' has held fast in my view. It is not a sound spoken by the majority.

Hugh, instead of purging Ian from the First Shaw alphabet, why not just add Whitewheat to it? I have it on the grave accent key in the Jerome font. If there was a move to include it in the First Shaw fonts, though, it could go into any unused space, even cap B, cap K, cap L. There's room for 52 characters on the 26 letter keys.

I don't think that a 'wh' character would really be useful in the alphabet after all. It's not an essential distinction - and indeed, it's not really noticeable either.

The guiding principle I finally settled in creating the Second Shaw map, was to include everything, whether on not everyone used it all or liked it all, for example, even two Quickscript letters that are throwbacks to Roman X. Use is a personal thing, but availability is not. I even included two new letter-forms, created by Paige himself, and tested over years.

Sounds interesting - which new letter-forms are those? And what sounds do they represent?

All:
A quick thought about stress: We often tend to think of the difference of vowels in terms solely of quality, but there is what's called agogic stress: duration. It seems that Read favored If whenever the "ee" or "ih" sound was of a very short duration, hence the -iti, -ali endings, etc. When it's understood that the difference is more of agogic stress than of accented syllables or the shape of the vowel formed in the mouth, I think a lot of our disagreement about using If and Eat might be resolved. That's really what I meant by the crack about "American hillbilly" accents. For instance, the "Texas drawl" in the Dallas area extends vowels sounds several times their normal durations to most people's speech. I think to write /SEvIan instead of /SEvWn suggests that drawl. BTW, I grew up in Texas, but on the Mexican border, very rhotic general American accent.

But why did he favor 'if' in preference to 'eat'? 'Eat' is much closer to how the majority of us say those sounds. In this respect I don't think Read got that one right.

Gary,

Your site is terrific. I love it, but I still can't read Shavian very well. I was wondering if you might consider posting some simpler texts, even children's texts for some who are still getting used to it? For instance, I might be ready to take on "Peter Rabbit," but I'm intimidated as hell by "The Pit and the Pendulum!"

Gary, I agree, your site is terrific!! In fact it's given me the idea to do a similar kind of thing myself. Mine is boring anyway. It needs more color.

Everyone, I'm going to make one more post, a key to the Second Shaw alphabet, which I should've posted at the time I announced the new Jerome font, but it wasn't ready then. I hope you find it useful.

Good idea - I'll take a look at it when you post the address...

---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

Hugh

From: Paige Gabhart
Date: 2000-12-21 02:27:29 #
Subject: [shavian] Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

Toggle Shavian
>Received: (qmail 85084 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 02:19:19 -0000
>Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27)
> by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2000 02:19:19 -0000
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> by mta2 with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 02:19:19 -0000
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> by phoenix.aye.net with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 02:19:17 -0000
>Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001220211747.00a3b4b0@...>
>X-Sender: pgabhart@...
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2
>Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:20:18 -0500
>To: shavian@...
>From: Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@...>
>Subject: Many things
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>
>>Received: (qmail 59141 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 00:21:41 -0000
>>Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26)
>> by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2000 00:21:41 -0000
>>Received: from unknown (HELO phoenix.aye.net) (198.7.192.21)
>> by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 00:21:41 -0000
>>Received: (qmail 80681 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 00:21:38 -0000
>>Received: from dial1-60.aye.net (HELO 206.mail.corecomm.net) (198.7.196.60)
>> by phoenix.aye.net with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 00:21:38 -0000
>>Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001220184238.00a24d80@...>
>>X-Sender: pgabhart@...
>>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2
>>Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:22:40 -0500
>>To: shavian@...
>>From: Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@...>
>>Subject: Re: [shavian] Many things (roman letters)
>>In-Reply-To: <002301c06ac6$087c3300$1949fccd@default>
>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>>
>>Jon:
>>
>>At 02:57 PM 12/20/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Hello friends:
>>>
>>>Hugh and others:
>>>
>>>I'm not sure what the source of the spacing problems with Jerome
>>>is: I've been working on it for more than three weeks. I know in Word,
>>>some of the "from below" connections, eg, v/schwa, half-win/Earth,
>>>connecting Thither/Earth, etc. display properly only at some point
>>>sizes. In Outlook Express, in editing text that uses any half-letters,
>>>the cursor's appearance is thrown off by several points from where it
>>>actually appears. The problem with word-wrap not working seems to be
>>>something with quoted text in the Outlook Express, and also in the
>>>e-group's message pages.
>>
>>For my e-mail, I switched to the latest version of Eudora (5.02), which
>>is available free from their website (eudora.com) if you don't mind a
>>small ad in the lower left corner. I haven't had any problems with word
>>wrap or the cursor not lining up even when using half-letters since I
>>switched to this program. I have still noticed some letter combinations
>>where the letter spacing could be improved.
>>
>>> Prior to November 25, I had never even touched a font creator before,
>>> so I'm really brand-new to all of this.
>>
>>Now I'm really impressed! What font creator are you using?
>>
>>> Since I'm so new to Shavian, I often transliterate to a plain Roman
>>> font when posts are very large, since I still find reading Shavian
>>> extremely difficult.
>>
>>Don't despair. I've been reading my own QS for years, but my reading
>>speed has increasied steadily since we've started posting in Jerome. I
>>never got enough practice reading my own writing because I didn't write
>>that much in it because I couldn't read it as fast as Roman --sort of a
>>vicious circle problem.
>>
>>>Final (yeah right!) thoughts on Ian and Whitewheat. Hugh, you do make a
>>>case for the non-phonemic status of Ian. Yet, I don't think you make a
>>>case for it being useless. Besides, if Ear is a phoneme, and I've
>>>discussed before it's huge range of sounds from "ee-ur" to "ih-uh" in
>>>the American South, doesn't it make sense for the non-R part of it to
>>>also have it's own place in the alphabet? If there's an Are, there's an
>>>Ah, if there's an Or, there's an Awe, etc. If there's an Ear, there
>>>must be an Ian, otherwise the logical symmetry is disturbed.
>>
>>People writing in Shavian seem hung up on whether "Ian" is a letter. In
>>QS any two letters that can connect without additions to the natural
>>shape of the letter may do so. ("Thither", the only exception to this
>>rule, was granted a dispensation by Read). If you want the advantage of
>>imitating the fluidity of QS handwriting in a printed form, then having
>>"Ian" available makes sense since both of the letters of which it is made
>>naturally connect and form a pleasing shape. Anyone who doesn't want to
>>use it doesn't have to. In my own dialect, I sometimes connect "Eat" and
>>"Ado" when that seems to be what my pronunciation calls for. I don't
>>think of that combination as a "letter," i.e. part of the QS alphabet.
>>
>>>Gary,
>>>
>>>Your site is terrific. I love it, but I still can't read Shavian very
>>>well. I was wondering if you might consider posting some simpler texts,
>>>even children's texts for some who are still getting used to it? For
>>>instance, I might be ready to take on "Peter Rabbit," but I'm
>>>intimidated as hell by "The Pit and the Pendulum!"
>>>
>>>Everyone, I'm going to make one more post, a key to the Second Shaw
>>>alphabet, which I should've posted at the time I announced the new
>>>Jerome font, but it wasn't ready then. I hope you find it useful.
>>
>>Checked out your key. It looks great. Have a good holiday, Jon.
>>
>>Anybody: Where can I get a copy of the transliteration program?
>>
>>Paige
>>
>>
>
>



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From: Paige Gabhart
Date: 2000-12-21 02:47:35 #
Subject: Fwd: Re: [shavian] Many things (roman letters)

Toggle Shavian
>Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:22:40 -0500
>To: shavian@...
>From: Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@...>
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Many things (roman letters)
>
>Jon:
>
>At 02:57 PM 12/20/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>>Hello friends:
>>
>>Hugh and others:
>>
>>I'm not sure what the source of the spacing problems with Jerome
>>is: I've been working on it for more than three weeks. I know in Word,
>>some of the "from below" connections, eg, v/schwa, half-win/Earth,
>>connecting Thither/Earth, etc. display properly only at some point
>>sizes. In Outlook Express, in editing text that uses any half-letters,
>>the cursor's appearance is thrown off by several points from where it
>>actually appears. The problem with word-wrap not working seems to be
>>something with quoted text in the Outlook Express, and also in the
>>e-group's message pages.
>
>For my e-mail, I switched to the latest version of Eudora (5.02), which is
>available free from their website (eudora.com) if you don't mind a small
>ad in the lower left corner. I haven't had any problems with word wrap or
>the cursor not lining up even when using half-letters since I switched to
>this program. I have still noticed some letter combinations where the
>letter spacing could be improved.
>
>> Prior to November 25, I had never even touched a font creator before,
>> so I'm really brand-new to all of this.
>
>Now I'm really impressed! What font creator are you using?
>
>> Since I'm so new to Shavian, I often transliterate to a plain Roman
>> font when posts are very large, since I still find reading Shavian
>> extremely difficult.
>
>Don't despair. I've been reading my own QS for years, but my reading
>speed has increasied steadily since we've started posting in Jerome. I
>never got enough practice reading my own writing because I didn't write
>that much in it because I couldn't read it as fast as Roman --sort of a
>vicious circle problem.
>
>>Final (yeah right!) thoughts on Ian and Whitewheat. Hugh, you do make a
>>case for the non-phonemic status of Ian. Yet, I don't think you make a
>>case for it being useless. Besides, if Ear is a phoneme, and I've
>>discussed before it's huge range of sounds from "ee-ur" to "ih-uh" in the
>>American South, doesn't it make sense for the non-R part of it to also
>>have it's own place in the alphabet? If there's an Are, there's an Ah,
>>if there's an Or, there's an Awe, etc. If there's an Ear, there must be
>>an Ian, otherwise the logical symmetry is disturbed.
>
>People writing in Shavian seem hung up on whether "Ian" is a letter. In
>QS any two letters that can connect without additions to the natural shape
>of the letter may do so. ("Thither", the only exception to this rule, was
>granted a dispensation by Read). If you want the advantage of imitating
>the fluidity of QS handwriting in a printed form, then having "Ian"
>available makes sense since both of the letters of which it is made
>naturally connect and form a pleasing shape. Anyone who doesn't want to
>use it doesn't have to. In my own dialect, I sometimes connect "Eat" and
>"Ado" when that seems to be what my pronunciation calls for. I don't
>think of that combination as a "letter," i.e. part of the QS alphabet.
>
>>Gary,
>>
>>Your site is terrific. I love it, but I still can't read Shavian very
>>well. I was wondering if you might consider posting some simpler texts,
>>even children's texts for some who are still getting used to it? For
>>instance, I might be ready to take on "Peter Rabbit," but I'm intimidated
>>as hell by "The Pit and the Pendulum!"
>>
>>Everyone, I'm going to make one more post, a key to the Second Shaw
>>alphabet, which I should've posted at the time I announced the new Jerome
>>font, but it wasn't ready then. I hope you find it useful.
>
>Checked out your key. It looks great. Have a good holiday, Jon.
>
>Anybody: Where can I get a copy of the transliteration program?
>
>Paige



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