Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hi Jon,

Thanks for catching the error.

The Hotsuma is another phonemic alphabet for English
based on some historical shapes used in the Far East.

The Hotsuma shapes are interesting because they can be
combined one on top of the other. Getting two symbols
in one letter space creates a very compact notation.

I am building a page that explains a wide variety of
writing systems by creating a version that relates to
English.

Thus we have English written in Japanese, Korean
Hangol, Egyptian, Quipu, Mayan, etc.

The theme is that alphabetical writing is just a code
and there are a variety of ways to encode the basic
sounds [or phonemes] of English.

If you want the corresondence table for New Hotsuma, I
will be glad to send it to you.

Regards,

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/ss-1.html
http://www.egroups.com/group/saundspel

--- Jon Zuck <frimmin@...> wrote:
> It looks like in your example sentence, you have
> Jumpt in Shavian, but [jumps] in IPA.
>
> BTW, what's all the strange stuff at the bottom
> border?
> ---
> Shalom v'Tovah,
> Jon Zuck
> Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin


=====



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Jon:

F hAv solvd mF problam sendIN I-mElz VzIN /JarOm, ( bF dQnlOdIN H lEtest
vDZan v mF I-mEl prOgrAm) YlHO F Am nQ ekspCinsIN H prYblem wiT H
karsD not lFnIN ap propDlI, `ic z diskansDtIN n slOz dQn mF tFpIN
kansidDablI. His did not hApan `eG F waz VzIN mF wDd-prosesD. wDd-rAp
dazGt sIm t bI wDkIN IHD.
F hAv nO trEnIN az a lINgwist, bat H spelIN "sINl" lUks rYN t mI anles j
pranQns i wiTQt a hRd "g" sQnd. F wUd Vz "sINgl". i sImz t mI Hat H
/lAtin "ng" iz a mEkSift fYrm fYr a sQnd HAt /lAtin did not hAv a simbul
fYr. bF HAt F mIn H "g" kAnot bI sepREtd fram H "n" n jzd agin in a
sepRat silabl. /SY rOt abQt His problam `eG pIpul wUd tEk /lAtin
"th" Vzd in a plEs nEm n bF sepREtIN H tM letDz tDG i intM nM wDdz
wiT nO rIlESan t H ariJanl mIGIN.

At 10:52 PM 12/16/00 -0500, you wrote:


/gXi n /hV,
(snip)
it mEks eminant sens t hAv a fonImik letD fP (j ).


F agrI.



H kEs fP difendN w (?) iz hRdD, bu His iz it: it's simplI kMl. F agrI HAt it's not a Vnit v sQnd uZMali knsIvd Az suc, but nFHD R , x, X, C, R, or P! F knsidD it a kMl TiN t hAv ligacDz fP HIz frIkwant kombinESnz v sQndz. nP dM F knsidD it impPtant fP it t lUk fP I + a insted v i+a. H sQnd iz apXant from H nEm v H letD, n H letD iz "bicin'!" F agrI HAt H fDst pRt v H letD sQndz mP lFk I HAn I(i), n pDhAps it kUd'v bI mP krIEtd Az An I+a ligacD,


F wUd prafD "I" + "a," Az i strFks m Az bIIN klOsD t His sQnd mYr v H tFm HAn t
"i" + "a."



but /Read sImd t wynt t avqd reprisentN ani sQndz Az bIiN mP strest HAn wot HE R. sDtanlI F dOn't sE H I P I in "/SEvWn" Az klClI Az H I in "sI". it's YlsO mP fPwDd HAn a simpl klozd I Az in "sit". F lFk H fAkt HAt /Read Xrd on H sFd v reprizentd spIc a tAd les strest HAn it iz, rAHD HAn wiH An RtifiSl klXitI n stres on pEpD kmpXd t wot wI AkcMalI sE.


F agrI Hat H Vs v ligacDz z kMl, bat F TiNk w SUd b kXful not t
OvD-komplikEt H kIbOrd mApIN, Has mEkIN i Ivan hRdD t larn t tFp fYr
biginDz.
in evDidE spIc, mOst f as tend t IGansIEt les klirlI HAn w kMd, bat w SUd not fYstD Hat slovuGlI spIc bF imbrEsIN i in Qr spelIN. F imaJin if j Ask samwan t pranQns
a wDd, hI wil bI lFklI t sE i mYr kErfulI HAn hI daz `eG VzIN i in a sentans. (bF H
wE, F YlwEz bIlIvd "Read" waz pranQnst "/rId." daz iniwan nO `at hI kYld himself?)



sO F hC a bit v An /amerikan "hilbilI" Aksent wen F rId "SEv-I-an" insted v "/SEvWn." n /gXi, dM V rWli wynt us t TiNk V gO arQnd sEiN I-M instead v V?




F TYt wI hAd agrId sam tFm agO HAt nO pDsan'z dFulekt waz ini les wDHI

HAn iniwan elsa'z.

/pEJ




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/pEJ, V cYt mI!

HX R sevDl problmz wiT H /JDOm font, H strEJ bahEvjD V t kDsD n wDd rAp samtFmz in Internet Explorer
H fEljD v sam v H kanekSans t SO propDlI At difDant pqnt sFzz, n
wan wic F Just nQ nOtist, H nEmD dot dazn't wDk samtFms if it's H
fDst kDaktD on a lFn!

(If eniwan nOz hQ t help mI fiks His, plIz let mI nO.)

F TiNk H ligavDz R t mI, H siNgl (V kot mF tFpO) mOst inJInjas inaVESan in H /SEvWn sistam. i z a SEm HAt Qr prezant kIbPdz dOn't
hAV H rMm fP Hem. And if F kUd get a kompVtD font t konekt n kDn
everiHiN propDlI, HE wUd bI uneSeSXi fP H /sekand /SY Alfabet.

YlsO, F didn't mIn t denigrEt eni dFalekt in HAt post, bat simplI t pqnt
Qt briNN sac An emfasis on h "I" sQnd wUd probablI grOslI misreprIsent
GXi'z spIc sins hI z /britiS.

(F'm Jast a sol hM's intenSnz R gUd--
O nO, O lPd,
plIz dOn't let mI bI misandDstUd.) :-)

H TiNz F rWli lav abQt HIz skripts R strEnJlI, H TiNz wic hAv les t dM
wiT "sQnd-fP-simbol" kPespondans (aHDz kAn YlsO dM HAt), bat elagans, bVti, and satulti. F'm rWlFzN HAt /INgliS haz 100's v vQlz, wI Yl dM. `at wI hAv enVmDEtd R idIlizESnz v HEm. tM mI, H epitomI v /SEvWn satltI z in H ligacDz. hC wI R frId frum wDiiN abQt `eHD wI pronQns "I-a-r," "i-a-r," "I-a" P "i-a," (P eniTiN in-bitwIn), wan elagant simbal, a tripl ligacD, C, ekspesz H hOl rEnJ. tM mI, frum `at F'v lDnd v speliN rifPm, /rId waz VnIk in rekagnizN H nId fP bOT prisiZn n lIwE. VziN prisEs speliNz wen mP fleksibl wanz R bilt intM H sistum, mFt implF An emfasis on prisFs vQlz wic dOn't egzist in eniwan'z nAcDul spIc.

AnaHD pqnt--F'm stikiN mF nek Qt hC-- z wOn't wI (P SUdn't wI) sMn get bPd wiT Just tYkN abQt spelN YltDnativz Yl H tFm? frum H /kwikskript /mAnVul, F get a sens HAt /rId wyntd t help /SEvWnz mMv pAst wDiiN abQt FdIl spelNz `en H hol pqnt waz t mEk evriTiN IzID! hens Yl H suJescnz fP stAndDd endNz n biginiNz, wiT ripItd eksPteSnz: "HAt nO pRtikVlD pronansIESn z implFd."

wel, HAt's mF tM sents. :-) fPgiv mF strEJ mispeliNz in H lAst post. F waz trFiN sumTiN difDant, n didn't prMfrId.

/b/H/w, /hV, nOtis HAt F'v tEkan j'D advFs abQt "fFnl I." n /pEJ, jap, a fV
"`Ft`Its" got in HX tM!

--SylOm v'tOvyH,
/Jon /zUk
URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

i z mP mipPtant tM lav mac Han tM HiNk maC.
YlwEz dM HAt wic mOst impelz V to l lav.
--/st. /tDIsa v /yvIla

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In a message from Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
dated Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:20:32 +0100, my mailer made me see:

-> Lux Lucre wrote:
-> > Yes I think we should have a good links page there, at the very
-> > least.
->
-> I added a bunch of links today, from Google's directory and also from links
-> on those pages. Anyone else? Scott Harrison, what's your site's address?
->
-> > How much web space does the site have at present?
->
-> 10 MB are available at the moment. Very little of this is used :-)
->
-> Offers to provide content are welcome. I could also host people under
-> subdirectories if they wish.
->
-> Cheers,
-> Philip
->
->
->
->

Philip,

My site is normally at: http://www.mithrandir.com/Shavian/Shavian.html but for some reason the DNS is not finding it for me. Perhaps it works for others still, as I know the site is still up.

--
Scott Harrison

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Steve Bett wrote:
> Here is a relatively compact correspondence table used to
> emphasize the fact that English speech can be transcribed
> into a variety of different writing systems.

Was the lower line supposed to be IPA? If so, then I have a few gripes with
it. I'll use ASCII IPA in my explanations; see
http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~laker/ipa/ (for example) if you're not familiar
with it.

- the sound you represent as /e/ I believe is nearly always a diphthong /eI/
or /EI/ (though I believe Scots, for example, pronounce this sound /e/).
- your vowels + r in Shavian are off, as are some of the IPA. For example,
ir should be Shavian EAR and not OR. The IPA for OR should probably be /Or/
and not /or/.
- IPA doesn't use capital letters. The consonants should be: /h/ /hw/ /k/
/g/ /N/* /s/ /z/ /S/* /Z/* /tS/* /dZ/* /r/ /l/. The ones marked with a * are
where IPA uses a different symbol -- eng, esh, ezh for the first three, and
t+esh/t+ezh rather than c and j. Next row: /t/ /d/ /T/* /D/* /m/ /n/ /p/ /b/
/f/ /v/ /w/ /j/*. Note here theta and eth rather than t^h and d^h (which
look as if they are aspirated t and aspirated d, sounds which are not
phonemic in English); and j rather than y (which in IPA stands for a sound
found in German "müde" or French "lune").
- I'm not sure why you put spaces in the middle of your IPA words in the
bottom sentence (and here you do use eth rather than "D^H", and d-ezh rather
than "J"). You're missing "lazy", and you translate the vowel in "fox" and
"dog" inconsistently. Turned-a might be better, in which case you'd have to
change the version for "dog".

Cheers,
Philip

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F hAd t giv up trFiN t rId H /kwikskript pRt v jP pOst - H font hAz sumTiN roN wiH it HAt kYziz H rFtiN t disapC of t H rFt v H windO, n sO F kAnot folO Yl v wot iz ritan. dM V hAv enI FdIa wot kUd bI kYziN HAt?

rId on - F'm not dun riplFiN jet... :)

----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Zuck <mailto:frimmin@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...

/gXi n /hV,

F undDstAnd jP pqnts, but H /SY Alfabets R not teknikali fonetik, but fonImik. samwan rIsantlI pOstd H definiSn v a fOnIm Az a sINl Vnit v sQnd knsIvd Az suc bF a spIc kmVnitI. rImembx, F waz H gF hM lAst manT hM sMn t dM awE wiH q, n Q bIkuz HE wx difToNz! if V wynt t get teknikl, j izn't a konsanant but a semI-vQl, YlwEz Vzd t glFd intM P awE from anoHx vQl. but evri kid in skMl hM lDns /INliS tiNks v V Az a "lYN U." it mEks eminant sens t hAv a fonImik letD fP it.

H kEs fP difendN w iz hRdD, but His iz it: it's simplI kMl. F agrI HAt it's not a Vnit v sQnd uZMali knsIvd Az suc, but nFHD R , x, X, C, R, or P! F knsidD it a kMl TiN t hAv ligacDz fP HIz frIkwant kombinESnz v sQndz. nP dM F knsidD it impPtant fP it t lUk fP I + a insted v i+a. H sQnd iz apXant from H nEm v H letD, n H letD iz "bicin'!" F agrI HAt H fDst pRt v H letD sQndz mP lFk I HAn I, n pDhAps it kUd'v bI mP krIEtd Az An I+a ligacD, but

/Read sImd t wynt t avqd reprisentN ani sQndz Az bIiN mP strest HAn wot HE R. sDtanlI F dOn't sE H I P I in "/SEvWn" Az klClI Az H I in "sI". it's YlsO mP fPwDd HAn a simpl klozd I Az in "sit". F lFk H fAkt HAt /Read Xrd on H sFd v reprizentd spIc a tAd les strest HAn it iz, rAHD HAn wiH An RtifiSl klXitI n stres on pEpD kmpXd t wot wI AkcMalI sE.

wiH w, Qx uHx difToNz E, q, q, F, V, O, n x, X, C, R, P fPmz, wI hAv An Alfabet wX mOst kompleks vQlz n glFdz R reprizentd bF a sINl kXaktD, sO Onli rXlI dM tO v Qx vQl/difToN simbalz nId t cum tMgeHx. uZMali evri silabl iz klClI indikEtd bF Just wun "vQl." H regVlXitI v H altDnESn v vQlz n konsanants in /SEvWn skript iz amEzN. anlFk H AganFzN wE wI reprizent difToNz n trifToNz

wen F vizitd H Unifon websFt, F sY wat iz definatlI a mP AmacDiS atempt At a fonImik Alfabet HAn /SEvWn. Yl vQlz R klC, sINl entitIz. nuTiN reprizents H rWl lEzinas v spIc, fP instans, HE reprizent "fFr" Az fFr, end v stPi, insted v H sataltI v /SEvWn "fFD."

sO F hC a bit v An /amerikan "hilbilI" Aksent wen F rId "SEv-I-an" insted v "/SEvWn." n /gXi, dM V rWli wynt us t TiNk V gO arQnd sEiN I-M instead v V?

Gary and Hugh,

I understand your points, but the Shaw alphabets are not technically phonetic, but phonemic. Someone recently posted the definition of a phoneme as a single unit of sound conceived as such by a speech community. Remember, I was the guy who last month who wanted to do away with q, and Q because they were diphthongs! If you want to get technical, j isn't a consonant but a semi-vowel, always used to glide into or away from another vowel. But every kid in school who learns English thinks of V as a "long U." It makes eminent sense to have a phonemic letter for it.

The case for defending W is harder, but this is it: It's simply cool. I agree that it's not a unit of sound usually conceived as such, but neither are , x, X, C, or P! I consider it a cool thing to have ligatures for these frequent combinations of sounds. Nor do I consider it important for it to look for I + a instead of i+a. The sound is apparent from the name of the letter, and the letter is "bitchin'!" I agree that the first part of the letter sounds more like I than i, and perhaps it could've be more created as an I+a ligature, but Read seemed to want to avoid representing any sounds as being more stressed than what they are. Certainly I don't say the i or I in "Shavian" as clearly as the I in "see." It's also more forward than a simple closed i as in "sit." I like the fact that Read erred on the side of represented speech as a tad less stressed than it is, rather than with an artificial clarity and stress on paper compared to what we actually say.

With W, our other diphthongs E, q, Q, F, V, O, and x, X, D, R, P forms, we have an alphabet where most complex vowels and glides are represented by a single character, so only rarely do two of our vowel/diphthong symbols need to come together. Usually every syllable is clearly indicated by just one "vowel." The regularity of the alternation of vowels and consonants in Shavian script is amazing. unlike the agonzing way we represent dipthongs and trithongs When I visited the Unifon website, I see what is definitely a more amateurish attempt at a phonemic alphabet than Shavian. All vowels are clear, single entities. Nothing represents the real laziness of speech, for instance, they represent "Fire" as fFr, end of story, instead of the subtlety of Shavian "fFD."

'W' iz H OnlI inaprOprIat kAriktD in H Alfabet. trM, it duz lUk pritI kMl, but in VsiJ it duz lital mP HAn get in H wE.

F wUd RgV HAt 'R' n 'P' R inklMdid in H Alfabet bikoz HE R rOtisFzd ikwivalants (not rIalI difToNz) v sQndz HAt R sIn Az siNgal fOnImz. 'W' iz nuTiN v H sPt, it hAz nO 'ikskVs' - it iz simplI 'I' wiH an 'a' stuk on H end. it lUks kMl but HAt's OnlI bikoz HOz letDz hApan t fit tageHD betD HAn mOst.

'x', 'X' m 'C' R sumwot difDant. HX R nO un-rOtik vxZanz - HX iz nO loN 'u', nO loN 'e', nO loN 'i' (At lIst not in koman VsiJ). but if V lUk in H pranunsIESan gFdz v H maJoritI v (rOtik /iNgliS) dikSanerIz, HE tM R listid Az difFnd fOnImz. sI http://www.dictionary.com/help/ahd3key.html fP an igzympal.

it mFt bI pqntid Qt bF sum HAt sumtFmz a loN 'i' duz akx in sum pIpal'z spIc, HXfP pravFdiN a propD 'fOnImik' Vs fP 'W' - suc Az in H wxd 'vWmantlI' ('W' iz Vzd hC t reprazent His sQnd), Az spOkan bF sum pIpal. but Ivan in HOz pIpalz' spIc, His sQnd OnlI akxz in a hAndfUl v wxdz Qt v miljanz - iz HAt JustifikESan fP a sepDat kAriktD t reprazent suc a rX sQnd? F hRdlI bilIv sO mFself. mOst pIpal pranQns HAt wxd 'vIamantlI' enIwE, sO HAt mEks H sQnd Ivan rXD on H hOl. YlsO - sumtFmz a loN 'e' akxz tM, suc Az in H SPtand fPm v 'jes': 'jea'. but His iz OnlI wun wxd. H sEm gOz fP H loN 'u' sQnd, Az hxd wen sumwun iz TiNkiN abQt sumTiN ("uuu... F dOnt nO"). SUd HX bI a sepDat kAriktD fP His sQnd tM?

sO His SUd prMv mF pqnt HAt evrI siNgal letD in H /SY Alfabet iz sIn Az a sepDat fOnIm, bR wun - 'W'. F TiNk V wil fFnd HAt nO pranunsIESan gFd in enI rOtisFzd dikSanerI difFnz it Az a fOnIm.

p.s. F TiNk HAt if enI ekstra kompQnd kAriktD SUd bI inklMdid insted v 'W', it SUd bI /kwikskript's inJInIas 'hw' kAriktD. HAt At lIst wUd bI dAmd VsfUl n wUd sEv lOdz v tFm. enIwun els TiNk His wUd bI a gUd FdIa? it wUd YlsO riplEs 'W' pxfektlI (n aprOprIatlI) on H 'Sift-w' paziSan.

/hV

So I hear a bit of an American hillbilly accent when I read "Shav-ee-an" instead of "Shavian." And Gary, do you really want us to think you go around saying I-M instead of V? :-)

---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Zuck <mailto:frimmin@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...

(Note: Jerome font has been extensively revised to connect letters with the full expressiveness of the Revised Shaw alphabet. Please download the new version from the Files folder. Give it a try before you translate this to Ghoti:-)

/hV,
F dOn't sI H pqnt v trFN t avqd H wandDful letDz "C" and "W." Hoz R ekstImlI Vsfl ligacDz (n F rIalI mist Hem in H wDd "sCrWsli." spelN i "sIarIaslI" mEd i lUk lFk a hPibli difikalt wDd wic i izan't. Hoz kambFnd letDz YkD in H /sekant /SY Alfabet Az wel, YlHo HE arn't enMmDEtd Az letDz pD sE. nevDHles, HE sEv tIM, spEs, klXrifF H nambD v silabalz, n briN a dilFtfl hint v H "silAbalXrI" konsept tM SY-lnd!

ummm... F'v trFd mF best t undDstAnd wot V rOt Just Hen. F agrI /ks iz verI similD t /SEvIan, sO HAt helps.

F nO loNgD trF t amit 'C' - F agrI HAt it iz VsfUl, n it iz YlsO a verI koman sQnd in H lANgwiJ. but H letD 'W' F kAnot JustifF VziN enIwX, bikoz F simplI dM not sE HAt sQnd enIwX in mF spIc - F OnlI evD sE 'Ia' P 'ja', sO HOz R H kombinESanz F Vz. it iz H OnlI kAriktD in /SEvIan HAt F kAn nevD fFnd a Vs fP in mF rFtiN.

n F kAnot aksept VziN it fP a kombinESan v sQndz (H 'Ia' in '/SEvIan', 'VkrEnIan', 'sCIaslI') HAt iz hRdlI a speSal kEs wxHI v an ekstra kAriktD. HAt sQnd iz verI obvIaslI tM fOnImz, n hRdlI wxHI v an ikstra letD. it mFt posiblI mEk TiNz 0.01% kwikD, a frAkSanalI SPtD wE v rFtiN it, but F kynt JustifF enI uHD rIzanz fP dMiN it. fxHDmP, F'd RgV HAt 'W' iz not dizFnd t reprazent 'Ia' enIwE, uHDwFz it wUd bI a ligacD v 'I' n 'a', not 'i' n 'a'; asVmiN F'm rFt, F kAnot fFnd a siNgal instans wen F'd nId t Vz suc a fOnIm.




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----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


'W' iz H OnlI inaprOprIat kAriktD in H Alfabet. trM, it duz lUk pritI kMl, but in VsiJ it duz lital mP HAn get in H wE.
F wUd RgV HAt 'R' n 'P' R inklMdid in H Alfabet bikoz HE R rOtisFzd ikwivalants (not rIalI difToNz) v sQndz HAt R sIn Az siNgal fOnImz. 'W' iz nuTiN v H sPt, it hAz nO 'ikskVs' - it iz simplI 'I' wiH an 'a' stuk on H end. it lUks kMl but HAt's OnlI bikoz HOz letDz hApan t fit tageHD betD HAn mOst.
'x', 'X' m 'C' R sumwot difDant. HX R nO un-rOtik vxZanz - HX iz nO loN 'u', nO loN 'e', nO loN 'i' (At lIst not in koman VsiJ). but if V lUk in H pranunsIESan gFdz v H maJoritI v (rOtik /iNgliS) dikSanerIz, HE tM R listid Az difFnd fOnImz. sI http://www.dictionary.com/help/ahd3key.html fP an igzympal.
it mFt bI pqntid Qt bF sum HAt sumtFmz a loN 'i' duz akx in sum pIpal'z spIc, HXfP pravFdiN a propD 'fOnImik' Vs fP 'W' - suc Az in H wxd 'vWmantlI' ('W' iz Vzd hC t reprazent His sQnd), Az spOkan bF sum pIpal. but Ivan in HOz pIpalz' spIc, His sQnd OnlI akxz in a hAndfUl v wxdz Qt v miljanz - iz HAt JustifikESan fP a sepDat kAriktD t reprazent suc a rX sQnd? F hRdlI bilIv sO mFself. mOst pIpal pranQns HAt wxd 'vIamantlI' enIwE, sO HAt mEks H sQnd Ivan rXD on H hOl. YlsO - sumtFmz a loN 'e' akxz tM, suc Az in H SPtand fPm v 'jes': 'jea'. but His iz OnlI wun wxd. H sEm gOz fP H loN 'u' sQnd, Az hxd wen sumwun iz TiNkiN abQt sumTiN ("uuu... F dOnt nO"). SUd HX bI a sepDat kAriktD fP His sQnd tM?
sO His SUd prMv mF pqnt HAt evrI siNgal letD in H /SY Alfabet iz sIn Az a sepDat fOnIm, bR wun - 'W'. F TiNk V wil fFnd HAt nO pranunsIESan gFd in enI rOtisFzd dikSanerI difFnz it Az a fOnIm.
p.s. F TiNk HAt if enI ekstra kompQnd kAriktD SUd bI inklMdid insted v 'W', it SUd bI /kwikskript's inJInIas 'hw' kAriktD. HAt At lIst wUd bI dAmd VsfUl n wUd sEv lOdz v tFm. enIwun els TiNk His wUd bI a gUd FdIa? it wUd YlsO riplEs 'W' pxfektlI (n aprOprIatlI) on H 'Sift-w' paziSan.
/hV

wFl F agrI HAt "W" iz not Vsful Az defFnd, F kontinV t Vz it t stAnd fP "Ia" sins that iz a vXI komun sQnd. F kwescund HAt VseJ mFself, but fQnd Az F wuz prMfrIdiN "pit n H penJMlum", n rIplEsiN "W" wXevx F fQnd it, F sMn fQnd HAt F rIlI didn't lFk sIing "Ia" in HOz plEsis. sO wFl "W" mE not "propxlI" bIlYN in H wxds "sencxWn", P "histXW", F dOn't mFnd sIiN it HX At Yl. Hen agen, "VsiJ mEks it rFt" n if HAt's hQ pIpl wx t AkcMelI Vz it Hen it wxks.

Az fP "hw" F pxsunelI find it t bI An RkEik sQnd. E wuz rEzd t prOnQns it in wxdz lFk "hwX" n "hwen", but fQnd Ovx H jCz HAt H distinkSun betwIn "wX" n "hwX" iz rXlI mEd enImP, n sins H identitI v H wxd iz YlwEz klC frum H kontekst, it iz supxflMus. n in prAktis F fFnd HAt H distinkSun is OnlI mEd bF pIpl v mF grAndpXent's JenxESun.

but in H lYN run F suspekt HAt /SEvWn wil nevx bI muc mP HAn an intxestiN sFdbR in H histPI v H laNgwiJ, relegEtid t HOz fV od indiviJMelz hO plE wiT it Just fP fun, P Vz it OnlI t kIp HX dFXIs sFf frum kAZMel prFiN Fz. n Ivin if its Vs wx t bIkum wFdspred it wUd lFklI sMn cFnJ in wFz HAt nun v us wUd aprMv f. aftx Yl, H OnlI tM konstents in lANgwiJ R HAt it wil cFnJ, at Hat Ic JenxFSun wil bI Ofendid bF H canJiz intrOdMst bF H nekst juNgx JenxFSun.

--gXI


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gErI rOt:

"in H lYN ran, /SEvIan wil bI ... an intDestIN sFdbR in H histYrI v H lANwiJ"
HAt mE bI trM dM t vestd intDests v HOz involvd in tIcIN plas H OvD`elmIN (sYrI fYr H letD "ghOtI" wOn't displE. it's "hw". F kastamErilI mEk HAt distiNSan n hAv not disFdd it's RkEik Jast jet.) inDSa v Yl H pIpul wiT nO intDest in mEkIN i IzID fYr evarwan t lDn /iNliS Yr in mEkiN cEnJaz HAt wD YlredI nIdd `eG /SEkspir'z tFm.

gErI n Jon:

in Vr rIsant pOsts, F fIl j hAv bin tYkIN pAst ic aHD sam`at. let mI Ad mF pDspektiv t H miks. /Jon hAs bin prFmErilI wDkIN on /JarOm, a font intendd fYr js wiT /kwikskript. F nO mOst v j hAv vErI litul familjIEritI wiT His Alfabet. it z signifikantlI IzID t rFt wiT pen Yr pensul in kwikskript HAn in /SEvIan. H letDz v H alfabet R IzI t Jqn tageHD. i apCans hFlI kDsiv. /Jon'z font rekanFzaz His fAkt, n hI hAs wDkt hRd t tEk AdvAntiJ v i. mac v /kwikskripts apIl n pleZD in rFtIN hAz bin kApcMrd in His font. t d His, hI dizFnd n mApt t H kIbOrd H hAf-letDz n H kambFnd letDz wiT ligacDz. At lIst sam v HIz R mApt t difDant kIz HAn H stAndDd mApIN V'v bin VzIN wiT /SEvIan sO i daz not intDfID wiT His bIIN cENJd t ghOtI n red bF samwan not Ebl t rId /kwikskript IzalI. H pqnt z HAt HIz kambFnd letDz, sac Az "C", "Yr," "D," ets. dOn't hAv t bI TYt v Az a "letD v H Alfabet" sins a letD, prazMmablI, reprizints a siNgl fOnIm. HE R Jast letDz HAt kAn IzalI fYrm kanekSanz, n in /kwikskript HE d, sO it's fan HOz sEm kanekSanz kAn bI mEd on H kampVtD. H letDz wD intendd t bI separat in /SEvIan, n His mE hAv led j t TiNk v H fYrmz kambFnIN tM letDz Az separat letDz in HEr On rFt. F Jast sI Hem Az H nAcarul kanekSanz Hat fYrm bitwIn H letDz v His bVtiful alfabet, n if w kAn dMplikEt Hoz SEps on H kempVtD wiT YltDnat letDz, HAt's kMl!

/pEg


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----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Shannon <mailto:reboot@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


'W' iz H OnlI inaprOprIat kAriktD in H Alfabet. trM, it duz lUk pritI kMl, but in VsiJ it duz lital mP HAn get in H wE.
F wUd RgV HAt 'R' n 'P' R inklMdid in H Alfabet bikoz HE R rOtisFzd ikwivalants (not rIalI difToNz) v sQndz HAt R sIn Az siNgal fOnImz. 'W' iz nuTiN v H sPt, it hAz nO 'ikskVs' - it iz simplI 'I' wiH an 'a' stuk on H end. it lUks kMl but HAt's OnlI bikoz HOz letDz hApan t fit tageHD betD HAn mOst.
'x', 'X' m 'C' R sumwot difDant. HX R nO un-rOtik vxZanz - HX iz nO loN 'u', nO loN 'e', nO loN 'i' (At lIst not in koman VsiJ). but if V lUk in H pranunsIESan gFdz v H maJoritI v (rOtik /iNgliS) dikSanerIz, HE tM R listid Az difFnd fOnImz. sI http://www.dictionary.com/help/ahd3key.html fP an igzympal.
it mFt bI pqntid Qt bF sum HAt sumtFmz a loN 'i' duz akx in sum pIpal'z spIc, HXfP pravFdiN a propD 'fOnImik' Vs fP 'W' - suc Az in H wxd 'vWmantlI' ('W' iz Vzd hC t reprazent His sQnd), Az spOkan bF sum pIpal. but Ivan in HOz pIpalz' spIc, His sQnd OnlI akxz in a hAndfUl v wxdz Qt v miljanz - iz HAt JustifikESan fP a sepDat kAriktD t reprazent suc a rX sQnd? F hRdlI bilIv sO mFself. mOst pIpal pranQns HAt wxd 'vIamantlI' enIwE, sO HAt mEks H sQnd Ivan rXD on H hOl. YlsO - sumtFmz a loN 'e' akxz tM, suc Az in H SPtand fPm v 'jes': 'jea'. but His iz OnlI wun wxd. H sEm gOz fP H loN 'u' sQnd, Az hxd wen sumwun iz TiNkiN abQt sumTiN ("uuu... F dOnt nO"). SUd HX bI a sepDat kAriktD fP His sQnd tM?
sO His SUd prMv mF pqnt HAt evrI siNgal letD in H /SY Alfabet iz sIn Az a sepDat fOnIm, bR wun - 'W'. F TiNk V wil fFnd HAt nO pranunsIESan gFd in enI rOtisFzd dikSanerI difFnz it Az a fOnIm.
p.s. F TiNk HAt if enI ekstra kompQnd kAriktD SUd bI inklMdid insted v 'W', it SUd bI /kwikskript's inJInIas 'hw' kAriktD. HAt At lIst wUd bI dAmd VsfUl n wUd sEv lOdz v tFm. enIwun els TiNk His wUd bI a gUd FdIa? it wUd YlsO riplEs 'W' pxfektlI (n aprOprIatlI) on H 'Sift-w' paziSan.
/hV

wFl F agrI HAt "W" iz not Vsful Az defFnd, F kontinV t Vz it t stAnd fP "Ia" sins that iz a vXI komun sQnd. F kwescund HAt VseJ mFself, but fQnd Az F wuz prMfrIdiN "pit n H penJMlum", n rIplEsiN "W" wXevx F fQnd it, F sMn fQnd HAt F rIlI didn't lFk sIing "Ia" in HOz plEsis. sO wFl "W" mE not "propxlI" bIlYN in H wxds "sencxWn", P "histXW", F dOn't mFnd sIiN it HX At Yl. Hen agen, "VsiJ mEks it rFt" n if HAt's hQ pIpl wx t AkcMelI Vz it Hen it wxks.

AkSalI it duzant rIalI 'wxk'. akPdiN t V wun wUd rFt '/mAfIa' Az '/mAfW', '/SEvIan' Az '/SEvWn', 'sencUDIan' Az 'sencUDWn', rFt? but in HAt kEs hQ wUd V rFt 'brEnID', 'linID', 'silID'? HX iz nO wE v rOtisFziN H letD. bifP it iz menSand, it iz not kDekt t Vz 'C', Az HAt reprazents a rOtik loN 'i' sQnd (wic iz a verI koman sQnd in H lANgwiJ n iz listid in mOst rOtisFzd dikSanerIz' pranunsIESan gFdz), n nevD 'I' plus 'D' - it iz Just lFk 'X' n 'x' in His rispekt. sO His mEks 'W' YkwDd t Vz t sE H lIst. it duzant fit.

F YlsO dOnt TiNk V'v rIalI got H mEn pqnt v mF lyst pOst - 'W' iz not kansidDd t bI a fOnIm, wXAz evrI uHD /SEvIan letD iz.

abQt H RgVmant HAt it lUks strEnJ t riplEs 'W' wiH 'Ia': His iz hRdlI a kEs fP kIpiN it. F'm SUD it wUd fIl Just Az strEnJ in H /rOman Alfabet t gO TrM riplEsiN 'x' wiH 'ks' - but it duzant mEk it enI les sensibal, Just bikoz it lUks strEnJ. it's OnlI bikzoz V'D nQ Vst t rFtiN 'W' in HOz plEsiz HAt it sImz strEnJ t Vz a propD kombinESan v letDz. indId, At fxst F dQnd it hFlI strEnJ (F Vst t vV it Az a stVpid prAktis) t Vz 'I' insted v 'i' in unstrest paziSanz - Ivan HO it iz fanImiklI kDekt t dM sO - Just bikoz F woz Vst t VziN 'i' insted bikoz F woz trFiN t rFt lFk /AndraklIz. but, Az F fQnd Qt, wiH a lital tFm F got Vst t H FdIa.

Az fP "hw" F pxsunelI find it t bI An RkEik sQnd. E wuz rEzd t prOnQns it in wxdz lFk "hwX" n "hwen", but fQnd Ovx H jCz HAt H distinkSun betwIn "wX" n "hwX" iz rXlI mEd enImP, n sins H identitI v H wxd iz YlwEz klC frum H kontekst, it iz supxflMus. n in prAktis F fFnd HAt H distinkSun is OnlI mEd bF pIpl v mF grAndpXent's JenxESun.

V mE pxsanalI bilIv HAt, n F kAn probablI undDstAnd wF, but H 'hw' sQnd iz not At Yl RkEik. it iz in fAkt pranQnst in menI difDant dFalekts TrMQt H /iNgliS-spIkiN wxld, suc Az skotiS, menI vDFatIz v suHDn m mPHDm iNgliS /iNgliS n menI amerikan dFalekts.

but V R rFt in HAt it iz not HAt impPtant fP mEkiN wxd mIniNz klC. F OnlI saJestid it Az a sensibal riplEsmant fP 'W', wic duz lital mP HAn get in H wE, n hAz nO fanImik kansistansI. At lIst a 'hw' letD wUd mEk fanImik sens.

but in H lYN run F suspekt HAt /SEvWn wil nevx bI muc mP HAn an intxestiN sFdbR in H histPI v H laNgwiJ, relegEtid t HOz fV od indiviJMelz hO plE wiT it Just fP fun, P Vz it OnlI t kIp HX dFXIs sFf frum kAZMel prFiN Fz. n Ivin if its Vs wx t bIkum wFdspred it wUd lFklI sMn cFnJ in wFz HAt nun v us wUd aprMv f. aftx Yl, H OnlI tM konstents in lANgwiJ R HAt it wil cFnJ, at Hat Ic JenxFSun wil bI Ofendid bF H canJiz intrOdMst bF H nekst juNgx JenxFSun.

F prifx t kIp mF opSanz Opan abQt H fVcD v /SEvIan. wF rFt it of nQ? nuTiN iz imposibal, Just verI difikalt. :)

--gXI



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----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Shannon <mailto:reboot@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


(snip)

wFl F agrI HAt "W" iz not Vsful Az defFnd, F kontinV t Vz it t stAnd fP "Ia" sins that iz a vXI komun sQnd. F kwescund HAt VseJ mFself, but fQnd Az F wuz prMfrIdiN "pit n H penJMlum", n rIplEsiN "W" wXevx F fQnd it, F sMn fQnd HAt F rIlI didn't lFk sIing "Ia" in HOz plEsis. sO wFl "W" mE not "propxlI" bIlYN in H wxds "sencxWn", P "histXW", F dOn't mFnd sIiN it HX At Yl. Hen agen, "VsiJ mEks it rFt" n if HAt's hQ pIpl wx t AkcMelI Vz it Hen it wxks.

AkSalI it duzant rIalI 'wxk'. akPdiN t V wun wUd rFt '/mAfIa' Az '/mAfW', '/SEvIan' Az '/SEvWn', 'sencUDIan' Az 'sencUDWn', rFt? but in HAt kEs hQ wUd V rFt 'brEnID', 'linID', 'silID'? HX iz nO wE v rOtisFziN H letD. bifP it iz menSand, it iz not kDekt t Vz 'C', Az HAt reprazents a rOtik loN 'i' sQnd (wic iz a verI koman sQnd in H lANgwiJ n iz listid in mOst rOtisFzd dikSanerIz' pranunsIESan gFdz), n nevD 'I' plus 'D' - it iz Just lFk 'X' n 'x' in His rispekt. sO His mEks 'W' YkwDd t Vz t sE H lIst. it duzant fit.

F YlsO dOnt TiNk V'v rIalI got H mEn pqnt v mF lyst pOst - 'W' iz not kansidDd t bI a fOnIm, wXAz evrI uHD /SEvIan letD iz.

jP RgVments R sQnd, v kPs, but not H tFp v TiNz HAt wUd konsxn H AvxeJ litxet rIdx. F konsidx mFself fXlI wel edVkEtid (pOst-grAd enJinCiN dIgrI) n wiT brYd rIdiN tEsts. but until subskrFbiN t His grMp F hAd nevx hxd H txm "rOtisFz", n sCIuslI dQt if mOst pIpl hAv evx hAd OkEZun t run akros it. if /SEvWn wx t bIkum wFdlI Vzd it wUd bI Vzd prinsiplI bF pIpl fP hMm suc iSVMs wUd bI konsidxd "Akademik nitpikiN".

Az fP H wxdz V menSund abuv, F wUd spel Hem Az folOz: "brEnWr", "linWr", "silWr", ets. wic speliNz F'm SMr R rYN fP sum pxfektlI vAlid rIson hOz eksplenESun wUd probeblI bI Ovx mF hed. :)

abQt H RgVmant HAt it lUks strEnJ t riplEs 'W' wiH 'Ia': His iz hRdlI a kEs fP kIpiN it. F'm SUD it wUd fIl Just Az strEnJ in H /rOman Alfabet t gO TrM riplEsiN 'x' wiH 'ks' - but it duzant mEk it enI les sensibal, Just bikoz it lUks strEnJ. it's OnlI bikzoz V'D nQ Vst t rFtiN 'W' in HOz plEsiz HAt it sImz strEnJ t Vz a propD kombinESan v letDz. indId, At fxst F dQnd it hFlI strEnJ (F Vst t vV it Az a stVpid prAktis) t Vz 'I' insted v 'i' in unstrest paziSanz - Ivan HO it iz fanImiklI kDekt t dM sO - Just bikoz F woz Vst t VziN 'i' insted bikoz F woz trFiN t rFt lFk /AndraklIz. but, Az F fQnd Qt, wiH a lital tFm F got Vst t H FdIa.

H sEm RgVment kUd, F supOz, aplFz t VziN "W". enI konvenSun Vzd konsistenlI wUd evencMelI lUk kPekt. on H oHx hAnd, in 200 jCz, wen /iNgliS prOnunsIESun hAz cEnJd signifikentlI H /SEvWn letxz wil nO lYNgx bI vXI klOslI rIlEtid t HX sQndz, n wI wil agen hAv a sistm v speliN HAt duz not kPespond t H wE H laNgwiJ iz spOken.

Az fP "hw" F pxsunelI find it t bI An RkEik sQnd. E wuz rEzd t prOnQns it in wxdz lFk "hwX" n "hwen", but fQnd Ovx H jCz HAt H distinkSun betwIn "wX" n "hwX" iz rXlI mEd enImP, n sins H identitI v H wxd iz YlwEz klC frum H kontekst, it iz supxflMus. n in prAktis F fFnd HAt H distinkSun is OnlI mEd bF pIpl v mF grAndpXent's JenxESun.

V mE pxsanalI bilIv HAt, n F kAn probablI undDstAnd wF, but H 'hw' sQnd iz not At Yl RkEik. it iz in fAkt pranQnst in menI difDant dFalekts TrMQt H /iNgliS-spIkiN wxld, suc Az skotiS, menI vDFatIz v suHDn m mPHDm iNgliS /iNgliS n menI amerikan dFalekts.

but V R rFt in HAt it iz not HAt impPtant fP mEkiN wxd mIniNz klC. F OnlI saJestid it Az a sensibal riplEsmant fP 'W', wic duz lital mP HAn get in H wE, n hAz nO fanImik kansistansI. At lIst a 'hw' letD wUd mEk fanImik sens.

F Am sxtenlI not RgViN fP H abOliSun v H sQnd, OnlI pqntiN Qt HAt it iz a sQnd F, pxsunelI, wUd hAv nO Vs fP.

--gXI


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