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----- Original Message -----
From: Hal Fulton <hal9000@... <mailto:hal9000@...> >
To: <shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> >
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 9:33 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: UNIFON

> >
> > I too pronounce 'our car' as 'are car'; however I pronounce 'the car
> is
> > ours' as 'the car is ow-ers'. It's just the way I was brought up I
> guess.
> > BUT I spell both 'our' and 'ours' with the Shavian 'out' letter, so
> as to
> > make my real meaning clearer to other readers.
> >
> > Hugh
>
> Now that is pretty interesting, too! You are from the UK, right?

jep, F'm from /iNgland.

> I've heard this done but I always thought it was an Americanism or
> even a Southernism, but obviously that was wrong.

H pranunsIESan iz in fAkt verI komanplEs hC! in fAkt F'm SUD it's mP koman HAn 'QD'.

> By the way, when I worked at Dell, they had these posters everywhere
> that said, "E-business is R-business." :) Pretty mystifying for the
> people who haven't heard that pronunciation, I would think.
>
> Obligatory on-topic stuff: Has anyone given additional thought to a
> Shavian game of Scrabble? (Someone had this neat idea a few weeks
> ago.) What are the design considerations? Has anyone ever measured
> the usage frequencies of the Shaw alphabet?

wUd it not bI kwFt difikalt in konsept? HX wUd bI menI, menI difDant wEz v speliN siNgal wxdz, n enIwun kUd RgV HAt enI wxd HAt HE pUt dQn SUd bI alQd.

> Hal
>
>
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Hal Fulton <hal9000@... <mailto:hal9000@...> >
To: <shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> >
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 9:33 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: UNIFON

> >
> > I too pronounce 'our car' as 'are car'; however I pronounce 'the car
> is
> > ours' as 'the car is ow-ers'. It's just the way I was brought up I
> guess.
> > BUT I spell both 'our' and 'ours' with the Shavian 'out' letter, so
> as to
> > make my real meaning clearer to other readers.
> >
> > Hugh
>
> Now that is pretty interesting, too! You are from the UK, right?

jep, F'm from /iNgland.

> I've heard this done but I always thought it was an Americanism or
> even a Southernism, but obviously that was wrong.

H pranunsIESan iz in fAkt verI komanplEs hC! in fAkt F'm SUD it's mP koman HAn 'QD'.

> By the way, when I worked at Dell, they had these posters everywhere
> that said, "E-business is R-business." :) Pretty mystifying for the
> people who haven't heard that pronunciation, I would think.
>
> Obligatory on-topic stuff: Has anyone given additional thought to a
> Shavian game of Scrabble? (Someone had this neat idea a few weeks
> ago.) What are the design considerations? Has anyone ever measured
> the usage frequencies of the Shaw alphabet?

wUd it not bI kwFt difikalt in konsept? HX wUd bI menI, menI difDant wEz v speliN siNgal wxdz, n enIwun kUd RgV HAt enI wxd HAt HE pUt dQn SUd bI alQd.

> Hal
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>

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> >
> > Obligatory on-topic stuff: Has anyone given additional thought to
a
> > Shavian game of Scrabble? (Someone had this neat idea a few weeks
> > ago.) What are the design considerations? Has anyone ever measured
> > the usage frequencies of the Shaw alphabet?
>
> wUd it not bI kwFt difikalt in konsept? HX wUd bI menI, menI difDant
wEz v speliN siNgal wxdz, n enIwun kUd RgV HAt enI wxd HAt HE pUt dQn
SUd bI alQd.
>

Sorry for not posting in Shavian... I don't have a font on this UNIX
machine and I'm afraid of making mistakes if I do it otherwise... :)

I think your point about Scrabble is a good one, but I think that it
would be necessary to play in order to find out how bad this was. If
all speakers were from the same dialect (probably a common
occurrence), their spellings might not vary so much. Or we could have
a large computer-searchable corpus and make the rule that any word
used *has* to be in there. (Like the dictionary rule.)

Of course, Scrabble often generates disagreements in Roman. :)

Just a thought.

Hal



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OnlI JOkiN! ;)
Just wiSiN evrIwun in H grMp a verI merI /krismas n a hApI nV jC! :)

/hV

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HANks, /hV!
sEm t V!
bF H wE, hApI nv milenWm!
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 6:33 PM
Subject: [shavian] More discussion on phonemes, dialect, rhoticism, use of ian, 'eat vs if'...




OnlI JOkiN! ;)
Just wiSiN evrIwun in H grMp a verI merI /krismas n a hApI nV jC! :)


/hV


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Regards,

acal@...

Hal Fulton wrote:
> Obligatory on-topic stuff: Has anyone given additional thought to a
> Shavian game of Scrabble? (Someone had this neat idea a few weeks
> ago.) What are the design considerations? Has anyone ever measured
> the usage frequencies of the Shaw alphabet?

This would probably also tie in to the quest for that elusive, holophonemic
sentence. Once we know the letter frequencies, it'll probably be easier to
construct such a sentence (especially if it is supposed to be fairly
short[1]) by trying to find words which combine uncommon letters.

Cheers,
Philip

[1] If you don't mind long sentences, you can undoubtedly concoct something
like "I peeped at the tot who was kicking his fat thigh so surely that the
church paster said, 'Yea, I have hung the bells and they shall toll for the
mime, if you bring me an egg and some ash on wool'. Without further ado, the
fathers said they are up in the air, in disarray, even Ian, with his dead
bib and the gag, though he vowed never to measure or judge any animal of the
zoo, lest woe befall him and they roar at him or even eat him. Better if
they eat ice, oaks, oil, or ooze, he urged all of them, grasping his ear and
kicking a yew."

I *think* this contains all letters of the alphabet as well as the four
standard abbreviations. If I've missed one, tell me! But this can
undoubtedly be made quite a lot shorter. Have fun trying :-)

> This would probably also tie in to the quest for that elusive,
holophonemic
> sentence. Once we know the letter frequencies, it'll probably be easier to
> construct such a sentence (especially if it is supposed to be fairly
> short[1]) by trying to find words which combine uncommon letters.

Funny you mention this - I did a little letter frequency analysis just
recently. I pulled together the content of all my larger Shavian texts and,
using the wonderful searching facilities of Textpad, counted the instances
of each and every letter within them. The results are at the end of this
post...

> [1] If you don't mind long sentences, you can undoubtedly concoct
something
> like "I peeped at the tot who was kicking his fat thigh so surely that the
> church paster said, 'Yea, I have hung the bells and they shall toll for
the
> mime, if you bring me an egg and some ash on wool'. Without further ado,
the
> fathers said they are up in the air, in disarray, even Ian, with his dead
> bib and the gag, though he vowed never to measure or judge any animal of
the
> zoo, lest woe befall him and they roar at him or even eat him. Better if
> they eat ice, oaks, oil, or ooze, he urged all of them, grasping his ear
and
> kicking a yew."

Masterpiece!! :)

> I *think* this contains all letters of the alphabet as well as the four
> standard abbreviations. If I've missed one, tell me! But this can
> undoubtedly be made quite a lot shorter. Have fun trying :-)

Nope it looks like you got em all. Couldn't have done a better job myself!

OK, here are the results of the frequency analysis I did on my own texts.
One thing I should point out, for the sake of fairness, is that I removed
all instances of the word 'vehicle' from the collated texts, as they made
the instances of the 'ian' character unproportionately high - the word
'vehicle' (in which I used 'ian') featured far too frequently in my 'Highway
Code' text (which weighed in at about 14,000 words). Another thing I should
point out is that the vast majority of the texts I pulled together were
written using my older spelling practices (e.g. 'if' instead of 'eat', using
'ian' *at all*).

These are in descending order of frequency:

i 889
n 881
t 859
s 825
d 810
r 808
l 801
a 788
k 786
z 728
e 706
H 686
m 647
f 646
o 642
E 637
D 636
p 632
w 621
A 621
O 618
F 616
v 611
b 595
P 584
N 580
u 546
I 542
V 528
S 478
g 414
h 402
M 399
U 368
J 353
R 349
c 320
x 313
Q 288
j 281
X 277
Y 218
y 168
C 159
T 153
q 88
Z 38
W 32

I hope these are useful. I hope to perform a more balanced frequency
analysis soon by pulling together as many Shavian texts as people are
prepared to submit and using the combined text as a basis for a character
count. Anyone game?

Hugh
www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk

Interesting. I was about to try the same thing myself, but glad you did it, since I'd probably never get around to it. I was surprised that IFwas in first place. Looks like Ado would come into first using AHD-esque EATishness over IFfy Androclesian spelling ? Not surprised Nun was the first consonant, Read said that it was in the QS manual, but didn't give any other details. Another interesting note is that from the Second Shaw/Quickscript point of view, where ADO and UP are consolidated into the same sound, ADO is overwhelmingly the leader, with 1334 occurrences.

I'm working on what will probably be the most massive Shavian transliteration to date when I'm done (/a k/rismas /kXul) but it will take time, and I've discovered that I do have a life to tend to, so not sure when I'll be finished.
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@... <mailto:mixsynth@...> >
To: <shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> >
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: UNIFON

> OK, here are the results of the frequency analysis I did on my own texts.
> One thing I should point out, for the sake of fairness, is that I removed
> all instances of the word 'vehicle' from the collated texts, as they made
> the instances of the 'ian' character unproportionately high - the word
> 'vehicle' (in which I used 'ian') featured far too frequently in my 'Highway
> Code' text (which weighed in at about 14,000 words). Another thing I should
> point out is that the vast majority of the texts I pulled together were
> written using my older spelling practices (e.g. 'if' instead of 'eat', using
> 'ian' *at all*).
>
> These are in descending order of frequency:
>
> i 889
> n 881
> t 859
> s 825
> d 810
> r 808
> l 801
> a 788
> k 786
> z 728
> e 706
> H 686
> m 647
> f 646
> o 642
> E 637
> D 636
> p 632
> w 621
> A 621
> O 618
> F 616
> v 611
> b 595
> P 584
> N 580
> u 546
> I 542
> V 528
> S 478
> g 414
> h 402
> M 399
> U 368
> J 353
> R 349
> c 320
> x 313
> Q 288
> j 281
> X 277
> Y 218
> y 168
> C 159
> T 153
> q 88
> Z 38
> W 32
>
> I hope these are useful. I hope to perform a more balanced frequency
> analysis soon by pulling together as many Shavian texts as people are
> prepared to submit and using the combined text as a basis for a character
> count. Anyone game?
>
> Hugh
> www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk <http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk>
>
>
>
>

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