Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

For those of you who are not on the Read_Alphabet list as well, I'm repeating (or restating)
the announcement here: I have created a small script which will take Shavian/QS text and
render it to images, allowing one to read messages even from computers which do not have
the fonts installed (writing messages, however, would still be difficult, thus this message is in
Standard).

http://slate.langan.net/qs.php

Note that large messages are likely to be slow, despite cacheing, because this is hosted on a
slow computer on a slow and busy DSL connection.

Enjoy!

oliver

In the post, I noticed that the voiced characters were almost
completely gone.  Particularly s.  Most of them need to be a z, H 'u' a' U'( F TINk),...

the u
a U
(I think).



Brian Algeri wrote:


hF SyvWn grMp,



wQ mF first pOstiN in SyvWn! hOpfulI H fxst v menI.



F stRted t lern SyvWn lAst spriN. F hAv bin duiN sO

of n on sins Hen. F lxnd abQt SyvWn AftD getiN

intxested in SPrthAnd sistems. won v H lInks F

kEm akros was t a SYvWn pEg.



F kAn rId SyvWn IsalI AftD a lot of prActis . F YlsO

wud lFk t spId up mF wrFtiN wic is stil slO n kontEns

mistEks. F fFnd mFself sQndiN Qt H wxds wen wrFtiN,

insted of Just writiN Hem dQn. F ges H mP F praktis

H betD F wil get. Just lik AnITiN els.



F wud ylsO lFk t HEnk evrIwon f H Ansxs F rIsIvd

abQt pOstiN t H grup in SyvWn.



t help in mF prAktis F hAv dIsFded t stRt tranlitxEtiN

pAsages intM SyvWn cArAktxs. F wil bI pOstiN HIs on

 mF webpEJ At:



http://www.brightstar.curvedspaces.com



regRds,

brFAn

Jeff wrote:



In the post, I noticed that the voiced characters were almost
completely gone.  Particularly s.  Most of them need to be a z, H 'u' a' U'( F TINk),...

the u
a U
(I think).




hF Jef



HEnks f H koments.  F Am not sx wat V mIn hC.  kAn V eksplFn fxHD.  F
Am writiN H wxrds as F wUld spIk Hem.  HAts a problem F sI wen VsiN
SyvWn.  evrIwun hAs a difxent lOkAl dFalekt .   it ylsO mE bI mistFks F
Am mEkiN wen VsiN H SYvWn kImAp.  F Am getiN betD H mP F prAktis.



HEnks.

brFAn

OkE, wen jM wUd sE /z/, jM SUd pUt a 'z', for
instans.  jM ylsO sIm t spel 'write'
Az 'wrFt.  His is ylsO rYN.  it SUd bI
speld mP lFk, 'rFt'.







okay, when you would
say /z/, you should put a 'z', for instance.  You also seem to
spell 'write' as 'wrFt'.  This is also wrong.  It should
be spelled more like, 'rFt'.




Brian Algeri wrote:



Jeff wrote:



In the post, I noticed that the voiced characters were almost
completely gone.  Particularly s.  Most of them need to be a z, H 'u' a' U'( F TINk),...

the u
a U
(I think).




hF Jef



HEnks f H koments.  F Am not sx wat V mIn hC.  kAn V eksplFn fxHD.  F
Am writiN H wxrds as F wUld spIk Hem.  HAts a problem F sI wen VsiN
SyvWn.  evrIwun hAs a difxent lOkAl dFalekt .   it ylsO mE bI mistFks F
Am mEkiN wen VsiN H SYvWn kImAp.  F Am getiN betD H mP F prAktis.



HEnks.

brFAn

Such a tool should prove quite useful. I'm wondering, though, is there
a way that you could make the script accept data given in the URL? If
so, we could create links that would lead directly to that page and
fill in the desired text. I know it can be done, but I wouldn't have
any idea how.

Regards,
Joseph Spicer
·𐑡𐑴𐑕𐑧𐑓 ·𐑕𐑐𐑲𐑕𐑼

On Aug 24, 2005, at 6:56 PM, oliver langan wrote:

> For those of you who are not on the Read_Alphabet list as well, I'm
> repeating (or restating)
> the announcement here: I have created a small script which will take
> Shavian/QS text and
> render it to images, allowing one to read messages even from computers
> which do not have
> the fonts installed (writing messages, however, would still be
> difficult, thus this message is in
> Standard).
>
> http://slate.langan.net/qs.php
>
> Note that large messages are likely to be slow, despite cacheing,
> because this is hosted on a
> slow computer on a slow and busy DSL connection.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> oliver

dshepx wrote:

>--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>iz it kYld /hFkM?
>>
>>
>
>
>jes, NFkM.
>
>
>ariJanali it wyz, apArantli, but Ha Opanih pyrt
>ov muc lOhgar pOams, but at sum tFm sevaral
>Nundred jirz agO bakEm an indapendant And
>muc-luvd pOatik form, TAnks prFmarali to a
>wyndarih munk nEmd /mAtsMO /kinsykM, NM
>tUk Ha nEm /bySO.
>
>Niz poams ar YlwEz reprasentad in evari AnTolaJi
>ov /JApanIz litaratUr, And espaSali Ha folOwih pOam,
>Nwic trAnslEtad litarali iz az folOz:
>
>brEkih He sFlans
>ov an Encant pond,
>a frog Jumpt intM wytar--
>a dIp resanans.
>
>VZali His apirz in its litarari (az apozd tM
>litaral) translESan:
>
>lisan! a frog
>Jumpih intM Ha stilnes
>ov an Encant pond.
>
>F NAv ylso sIn a vurZan Nwere Ha furst
>wurd, insted ov "lisan", waz simpli "plop!".
>
>
>kUriasli, Ha ariJanal, in .JApanIz, cAn bI writan
>Vzih He SY Alfabet:
>
>fMrMIke Jy,
>kywyzM tObikOmM,
>mizM nO OtO.
>
>(kQnt He numbar ov vQwalz tM daturmin
>Ha numbar ov silabalz.
>
>And ov kOrs, thIz pOamz wur YlwEz in Ha form
>ov kaligrafi, turnih Hem intM dubal yrt formz.
>
>
>fun, E?
>
>
>ragyrdz,
>dSep
>
dshep, I have to say that your spelling method in Shavian is the
strangest I have ever seen! I'm not sure if it's your pronunciation
which is so different, your use of the letters, typos, or all three. I
just wanted you to see what I see when I read your writing. Even though
I can read it fairly accurately, it is still very difficult for me to
read your writing as opposed to most people's.

I've been meaning to do this for some time, but never got around to it.
Here's your message above, as I read it. Words I have no trouble with
are spelled normally. Those which cause problems are marked with an
asterisk, and written as I see them.

Yes, *ngaiku.

Originally it was, apparently, but the *openih *pah-r't
of much *lowga-r' *poemss, but *'t some time several
*ngundred *yih-r'z ago became an independant and
much-loved *PO-a-tic forum, *than-ks *prima-rully *taw a
*wanda-rih *mun-k named Matsuo Kinsaku, *ngu
took the name Basho.

*ngiz *paw-umz *a-r' always *repra-cented in every anthology
*ov Japanese *lita-ra-too[short]-r', and *ESPa-shully the *follo-wih poem,
*ngwich translated literally is as follows:

Breaking *theh silence
*ov an ancient pond,
a frog jumped into *wata-r'--
a deep *ressanance.

Usually this *apih-r'z in its literary (*uz *apawzd to
literal) *trunslation:

Listen! A frog
*Jumpih into the stillness
*ov an ancient pond.

I *ngav *alsaw seen a *vuh-r'-zhan *ngweh-reh the *fuh-r'st
*wuh-r'd, unstead *ov "listen", was simply "Plop!".

*coo[short]-riously, the original, in Japanese, *chan be *w'ritan
*usih *theh shaw alphabet:

Furuike ja,
kawazu tobikomu,
mizu no oto.

(count *theh *numba-r' *ov vowels to *datuh-r'min
the *numba-r' *ov syllables.

And *ov *co-r's, *t-heez poems *wuh-r' always in the forum
*ov calligraphy, *tuh-r'nih them into double *ah-r't forums.

Fun, eh?

*ragah-r'dz,
dshep

--
Ethan Lamoreaux - �???? �??????

dshepx wrote:

>That's a possibility, rhythmical alternation:
>pea-bay, tea-day, key-,
>or let's try pea-buy, tea-die (or dye), key-guy.
>
>
>
It's so sad. Gay used to be so non-controversial, now we rarely can use
it in its original (happy or colorful) sense. I hate it when language
changes that way!

>>Also note that in general, the names of plosives given in Androcles
>>begin and end with the same sound, while the fricatives don't.
>>
>>
>
>Church and judge are fricatives.
>
>
To be more accurate, they are africates, combining a plosive with a
fricative.

--
Ethan Lamoreaux - ·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 ·𐑤𐑨𐑥𐑩𐑮𐑴

Joseph Spicer wrote:

> On Aug 17, 2005, at 3:29 PM, dshepx wrote:
>
> Ethan contributed:
>
> All plosives thus begin and end with the same sound, and each
> pair uses the same vowel.
>
Sorry, but that was not my contribution!

>
> This is probably a bad idea. In noisy environments, words (or letter
> names) with similar vowels will be difficult to distinguish. This
> problem exists with all the rhyming letter names we have in Roman. For
> example, I recently had to call my brother to get a serial number (I
> had lost mine) so I could reinstall Windows. Despite the fact that my
> phone is normally fairly clear, it was (very nearly) a miracle that I
> ended up with the right one.
> This is the reason for the so-called "phonetic", Alpha-Bravo-Charley
> type alphabets designed for use over radio. Ideally, this issue should
> be build into the names already. This is probably why Read used
> different vowels. While it's usually possible to determine the
> position of a consonant with a rhyming name, it's hardly ever possible
> to know if it's voiced in these situations.
> The system that Read later used in Shaw-Script often alternated
> vowels, as in pea-bay, tea-day etc. It isn't normally a problem that
> Pea and Tea have the same vowel because they're in different
> positions, but Pea and Bay need to be different. Of course, the names
> in /Androcles/ are even more distinct, but either should be
> sufficient. Then again, it wouldn't be unacceptable to have two sets
> of names for different purposes.

I must agree on this. It's better to keep the names distinctly
different in sound, for that very reason.

>
> Also note that in general, the names of plosives given in /Androcles/
> begin and end with the same sound, while the fricatives don't. This
> may relate to the fact that voiceless plosives in English are usually
> aspirated in initial position and nowhere else. A native speaker of a
> language that uses aspiration distinctively (Hindi, for example),
> would then be reminded that these letters stand for both sounds (which
> are the same in English). This is not necessary for fricatives.
>
> For the fricatives, one must choose between using the same
> vowel in each pair consistently, or beginning and ending some
> with the same sound, as above. An alternative would be:
>
>
> Neither is really necessary, but repeating the consonant sound in its
> name can't hurt.
>
> And for the vowels, again to further identify phonemic
> pairing and reinforce visual similarity:
>
> if eat (it eat, same ending)
> egg age (edge age, ditto)
> ash ice (ale isle, ditto)
> ado up (abut but, ditto)
> on oak (on own, ditto)
> wool ooze (pull pool, ditto)
>
> out oil (owl oil)
>
>
> I think some of these may be a little too similar, though the idea is
> good. And I believe "ale" should be El. "Abut" may also be confusing,
> but would be a good name if we ever wanted to throw out the letter Up
> entirely.

Sorry, but I'm not going to throw out any letters, so as long as I'm
writing in Shavian, they will all be used, nya nya nya! :p

>
> I personally think ah and awe are fine, as I distinguish the two
> sounds. But ah and all might do the trick for you, or father and
> falter. Of course, considering the original inspiration for this
> group, why not Shah and Shaw?
>
>
> I like /ah/ and /all/, though /Shah/ and /Shaw/ are too similar again.

How about "awl"? Yes, I know, it's pronounced the same as "all", but
perhaps some people don't pronounce "all" with an "awe". Still,
"awesome" is very distinct!

>
> are or √
> In my antiquated speech form I even distinguish or from ore.
>
>
> I do sometimes, though in my dialect it's usually by sentence stress,
> with /or/ being an unstressed word.
>
> air urge (Many people pronounce Err like Air)
>
> Yes they do. What about fair and fur?
>
Best if you can have letter names begin with their own sound. Air and
Urge are distinct and begin with their own sound. Otherwise, use the
same letter for all (far, for, fair, fur, fetter, fear, fian[?], few) as
mentioned below.

>
> These vowels are different enough that those names could work.
>
> better ear (Better is bettER than ARRay, which is not the right
> sound in all dialects)
>
> Good point, as most instances of this sound would appear to occur
> at the ends of words. What about better beer, just to be amusing?
>
>
> Or /bitter beer/. :)
>
> ian yew (few would be a more familiar word)
>
"You" is a pretty familiar word.

>
> Good point, and it would settle the issue of the /ew/ being spelled as
> a diphthong.

Yet it doesn't begin with its own sound.

>
> better beer, or feather fear, if for the sake of uniformity one would
> prefer to have all the -r words begin with the same sound. Perhaps
> eventually some graphicallv gifted person might devise a new letter
> for us to convey the triphthong "fire".
>
>
> The letter Array (Better, Bitter, Feather — Letter?) can be used to
> form diphthongs and triphthongs in -/r/, of which English generally
> has two (sometimes three): FD (/fire/), UD (/poor/), sometimes OD
> (/four/—usually two syllables, or just fP).
> When I develop my Shavian handwriting a little more, I may just
> ligature these letters when it wouldn't bridge a syllable boundary.
> But this is probably just a matter of presentation. The only time a
> distinction might be necessary is perhaps if someone distinguishes
> words like /lyre/ and /liar/, which I for one don't.
>
> Regards,
> Joseph Spicer
> ·𐑡𐑴𐑕𐑧𐑓 ·𐑕𐑐𐑲𐑕𐑼
>
--

Ethan Lamoreaux - ·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 ·𐑤𐑨𐑥𐑩𐑮𐑴

C. Paige Gabhart wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Philip Newton <mailto:philip.newton@...>
> *To:* shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:54 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [shawalphabet] primer
>
>
> Others say, write the way you pronounce it, so if you merge "pen" and
> "pin", use one letter for both vowel sounds.
>
> For those who are more knowledgeable about Spanish (which
> is spoken over a large geographical area) than I am, does Spanish
> have as many dialectical differences as we seem to have with
> English? I have read that Spanish has a relatively simple set of
> symbol to sound correspondences so that a child hearing a word
> spoken can spell a word correctly if they hear it pronouned.
>
> This leaves me puzzled about the insistence that, despite using an
> improved alphabet, such as Shavian or QS, we still will be
> required to look up words in the dictionary on, apparently, a
> regular basis. Can Gen. Amer. and RP be truly that far apart that
> we are unlikely to grasp the meaning intended? If one writes
> "grahss" vs. "grass," do we really believe the meaning won't come
> through. Do the majority in this group think that
> an occasional reduction in reading speed would be more onerous to
> the writer than looking words up in the dictionary repeatedly? It
> seems to me that the latter choice would involve more loss of time
> for everyone.
>
> Another thought occurs: how is a writer supposed to know which
> words to look up? If he speaks an American dialect, is he
> supposed to memorize which words are written differently in the
> official "standard" from his dialect? That sounds like a lot of
> extra effort. I read letters years ago in QS written in a New
> Zealand dialect. Penmanship slowed me down more than the dialect
> did. In fact, I enjoyed the dialect coming through the spelling.
>
> I guess I'll never understand the compulsion and fascination with
> standardization.
>
>
> Though this will undoubtedly mean, for many writers, looking up words
> in a dictionary that makes those distinctions if their own 'lect
> doesn't make them, to see whether e.g. "grass" is written with "ash"
> or with "ah". (I'd say "grahss" and "mahster", but "crass" and
> "passta".)
>
> Even in TO, would it not make sense when English adopts a word
> from another language, to spell it in such a way that the
> pronunciation would remain close to the original, rather than
> using the spelling in the original language, such as "pasta" and
> then using English spelling conventions, such as they are, and
> messing up the pronunciation? I believe Spanish adjusts the
> spelling when it adopts a word to match Spanish conventions. It
> is my impression that the "ash" sound is not used in Italian so,
> perhaps, "pasta" should be spelled "pahsta" in English. No doubt,
> an Italian hearing someone say "passta" would be unlikely, without
> context, to know what was being referred to. In fact, without
> context, I probably would take a moment to figure out what
> "passta" referred to.
>
> Paige
>
Good points. I believe in spelling the way which is most natural to
you, and "standardization" should be secondary to ease of use.

I've always said 𐑐𐑭𐑕𐑑𐑩 (pahsta) rather than 𐑐𐑨𐑕𐑑𐑩 (passta). I
have heard other people say it the other way. I think I hear the
Italian way used on television most of the time.

--
Ethan Lamoreaux - ·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 ·𐑤𐑨𐑥𐑩𐑮𐑴

paul vandenbrink wrote:

>Hi Ethan
>As regards the tweeking.
>Beeb is too easily confused with with Peep, so let me re-consider
>that.
>Your list seems quite a bit better than the original.
>I have one suggestion though. Although Better is better at
>representing the minimal "er" than "Array", perhaps there might be
>something even better than better.
>Some possibilities. Er-go, Earl, Ur-silla and Herc-you-leez
>
>Regards, Paul V.
>
>
Ah, but then you have confusion with Urge. Ergo, Earl, Ursilla and
Hercules are all Urge words in my dialect. In fact, in my dialect,
Array never comes at the beginning of a syllable.

--
Ethan Lamoreaux - ·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 ·𐑤𐑨𐑥𐑩𐑮𐑴