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Star Raven wrote:

>Question: How can Urge be unstressed if it is a one syllable word? If
>you are going to use an example of a schwer, it should be on a multi
>syllable word.
>
>--Star
>
You must have misunderstood me, if indeed you are responding to
something I wrote - you didn't quote what you were responding to.

Answer:
Urge is always stressed. Schwer is not Urge, it's Better (or Array) -
that is, schwer is always unstressed. I'm not sure what to call Urge,
but it's definitely not a schwer! It's written in the IPA as a
"backwards epsilon" with a "rhotic hook" attached, whereas Schwer is
written as a Schwa (upside-down e) with a "rhotic hook".

--
Ethan Lamoreaux - ·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 ·𐑤𐑨𐑥𐑩𐑮𐑴

F'd sqtanlI lFk t sI suc a gFd. if

I'd certainly like to see such a guide.

paul vandenbrink wrote:

> Hi Philip
> Thanks for providing a clear sample word that demonstrates where
> the sound of the "Array" letter, can be used at the beginning of a
> word.
> I defininately use that sound when I pronounce ar-ise and ar-range,
> but
> not arouse. I make the syllable break at a-rouse and ca-rouse, so I
> use
> ado instead of array for those words.
> Perhaps, Ethan, as he mention earlier (Every second or third letter)
> make consistent use of the Ado sound at the beginning of the word,
> rather than the "array" sound. Syllable boundaries are important in
> Shavian.
> Clarification or confirmation? Anyone?
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. I could make an attempt at providing a guide for simplified
> English pronunciation, with standard rules for syllable boundaries,
> if anyone is curious.
> It might sound a little mechanical, but it would be clear to our
> American cousins.
> It would also simplify when to use the Extra R-sound letters in Shaw.
> _____________________attached___________________________________
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Philip Newton
> <philip.newton@g...> wrote:
> > On 8/28/05, Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> > > Ah, but then you have confusion with Urge. Ergo, Earl, Ursilla
> and
> > > Hercules are all Urge words in my dialect. In fact, in my
> dialect,
> > > Array never comes at the beginning of a syllable.
> >
> > Not even if the syllable is unstressed, as in "arrange"?
> > --
> > Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
>
>
>
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This is an unforseen use of the page that I made... I thought people would use it to paste text
from this newsgroup into the page so they could read it; but in fact pasting images that the
page makes into a page makes sense too.

I updated the color scheme to black-on-white, so it should work a little better. I also added
spaces between the images, so that should render a bit better too.

(can't paste into this web-form, alas.)

oliver

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...> wrote:
> On 8/30/05, Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> > So, I need to change to a white-on-black scheme
>
> Hee -- Gmail doesn't honour the background colour, so your text was
> white-on-white :) But a secondary email account made it legible.
>
> Ideally, though, someone could come up with a similar program that
> uses white-on-black images.

-- ITan,

MMMMMS --

in raspons tM jOr wundDmant, Yr
pDNAps kamplEnts, abQt a rIsant
pOstih ov mFn, F kAn onli sE HAt
F Am simpli apYld bF He Sir numbD
ov mistEks, Ha prodakt not onli ov
insafiSant konsantrESan, but ov simpal
kerlasnas And NEst Az wel; He razult
iz ambArasih. it iz, At lIst in mF
kEs, a veri bAd FdIa tM trF tM pUt
HIz misavz tageHD lEt At nFt Nwen
wun's brEn (mFn surtanli) iz Ivan les
ralFabal HAn VZMal.

Onli a fV ov He divurJansaz V NAv
ramyrkt apon NAv F balIv tM dM wiH
pranunsiESan: F stil, fYr ekzAmpal,
dastihgwiS batwIn Yr And Or, HO sO
meni uHD pIpal sAdli nO lYhD dM sO;
NQevD, neglaJans And pranunsiESan
asFd, meni ov He pDtikVlD letD-cqsaz
V kwescan wur not unintencanal. V mE
not NAv notist Ha nEcD ov /pv's
inkwFri, intendad SMrli tM alisat He
respons it rasIvd: F did not wiS tM
disapqnt.

>> iz it kYld /hFkM?

>jes, NFkM.

F trF tM YlwEz inklMd a refarans on
VsaJ, but fDgot it His tFm -- sori! F
sapOz V must NAv mist an urliD daspVt
abQt defanit inkansistansiz And probabal
tFpagrAfikal erDz -- luki V! but if V
yr intrestad Yr mirli kVrias V kUd
rafur tM mesaJaz 50, 116, And subsakwant
ekcAnJaz in He yrkFvz. HAr woz An Ivan
urliD diskuSan in Ha prIvaus grMp Az
wel.

a ravV ov Ha topiks diskust in Hoz
debEts SUd eksplEn sum ov Ha kanfVZan:
fYr Ha ramEndD F kAn Onli apolaJFz.
in HIz urliD konfrantESanz F mEd Nwot
F NOpt tM bI a rIzanabal, but pDNAps
OvDli pASanat, yrgVmant fYr He nId ov
a TurO-gOih kansistansi, a kanstrEnt
HAt uHD membDz ov Ha grMp kansidD
tM bI ov lital Yr nO impYrtans, but
Nwic F fir tM bI asenSal if wI yr
tM evD saksId in arQzih Ha sastEnabal
intrest ov a mOstli indifarant (At best)
publik tM Ha advAntaJez ov Vzih Ha
/SY Alfabet -- And tM dM His, F kantend,
obvaus flYz SUd bI karektad; uHDwFz
dasmisal ov kansidarESan, aspeSali bF
eJVkEtDz, NM kUd bI grEt AlFz, wil bI
Yl HAt muc IziD. if F mE mEk a fIbal
atemt At NVmD, in unkonSasli AdNirih
tM His prinsipal apArantli, in Ic ov Ha
sevaral mesaJez F pOstad dVrih Ha wIk
in kwescan F mAnaJd tM pravFd mistEks
in Yl, kansistanli.



jOr raAkSan tM yl His, F kAn YlmOst
pradikt, wil dapend apon Nwot V ragyrd
Az Ha purpas, if eni, ov Ha /SY Alfabet.

meni ragyrdz,
/dSep


To those of you who are recent newcomers,
the text above should appear less strange
once you have converted it to Shawscript.
Then you should see that only some simple
transposition and substitution is involved.
This annoys the older members, but as it
was a reply to a comment to a reply I
thought it justified in using these forms
as they were, in a way, part of the original
bantering that prompted this particular
series. If you care to indulge in esoteric
disputes you may consult the archives to
learn the details.

keep on truckin'
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan wrote:

> dshepx wrote:
>
> >That's a possibility, rhythmical alternation:
> >pea-bay, tea-day, key-,
> >or let's try pea-buy, tea-die (or dye), key-guy.


> It's so sad. Gay used to be so non-controversial,
> now we rarely can use it in its original (happy or
> colorful) sense. I hate it when language chnges
> that way!

What about liberal? Once a generally positive description
no one would have reason to object to; and now a term of
abuse.


> >Church and judge are fricatives.

> To be more accurate, they are africates, combining a
> plosive with a fricative.

Yes indeed, the alert Philip Newton caught that within
minutes of its being posted.

regards,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan wrote:


> Joseph Spicer wrote:
>
> > On Aug 17, 2005, at 3:29 PM, dshepx wrote:
> >
> > Ethan contributed:
> >
> > All plosives thus begin and end with the same
> > sound, and eachpair uses the same vowel.
> >
> Sorry, but that was not my contribution!


No, I was the guilty party. The object of this exercise
was if possible to find suitable key-words that could
by their very structure indentify the nature of the sub-
group in question. That is, whether plosive, fricative,
etc. It does not appear to be easily done.


dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Philip Newton wrote:

> On 8/28/05, paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@h...> wrote:
> > I make the syllable break at a-rouse and ca-rouse, so I
> > use ado instead of array for those words.
> > Perhaps, Ethan, as he mention earlier (Every second or third
letter)
> > make consistent use of the Ado sound at the beginning of the word,
> > rather than the "array" sound. Syllable boundaries are important
in
> > Shavian.
>
> Syllable boundaries involving "r" are places where I'm also often
> unsure whether to use the rhotic letter or non-rhotic letter + r,
> especially since my native 'lect is non-rhotic.


A case in point -- the model supplied by my dictionary for a word
where this problem arises, say "reference" was this:

ref-@-rens

even though reference is an expansion of the word "refer" = \rafD\


regards,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" wrote:

> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Philip Newton wrote:

> > On 8/28/05, paul vandenbrinkwrote:

> > > Syllable boundaries are important in Shavian.

> > Syllable boundaries involving "r" are places where I'm also
> > often unsure whether to use the rhotic letter or non-rhotic
> > letter + r, especially since my native 'lect is non-rhotic.
>
> A case in point -- the model supplied by my dictionary for a
> word where this problem arises, say "reference" was this:
>
> ref-@-rens
>
> even though reference is an expansion of the word "refer" > \rafD\


Correction:

refer, of course, is not \rafD\ but roar-ago-fief-urge,
second syllable stressed. Haste not only makes waste
but all too often silly error as well.

The point that i was attempting to illustrate was that
in the process of syncopated stress that occurs when
a word is lengthened the result that one might expect
does not necessarily follow. In the case above, and
similar words, the stressed syllable does not weaken
to its unstressed counterpart, but relinquishes its 'r' in
rhotic speech to the following syllable, or in non-rhotic
speech re-introducing an 'r', again for the following
syllable. Could this possibly be the origin of the linking-r?

dshep

On Sep 4, 2005, at 8:08 PM, dshepx wrote:
>> A case in point -- the model supplied by my dictionary for a
>> word where this problem arises, say "reference" was this:
>>
>> ref-@-rens
>>
>> even though reference is an expansion of the word "refer" =
>> \rafD\
>
>
> Correction:
>
> refer, of course, is not \rafD\ but roar-ago-fief-urge,
> second syllable stressed. Haste not only makes waste
> but all too often silly error as well.

I'd be tempted to spell it \rifx\ (rifx), which seems like it would fit
right in with Androcles-style spelling. Whether this matches any other
accent besides mine, I can't say.

> The point that i was attempting to illustrate was that
> in the process of syncopated stress that occurs when
> a word is lengthened the result that one might expect
> does not necessarily follow.

In this case, the words were formed before the Great Vowel Shift, which
caused the sounds to change differently according to context. Thus the
final -r of refer is lost in non-rhotic dialects, but survives when
it's not final. The shift in stress from the second syllable to the
first probably explains some of the other vowel differences, as you
suggest below.

> In the case above, and
> similar words, the stressed syllable does not weaken
> to its unstressed counterpart, but relinquishes its 'r' in
> rhotic speech to the following syllable, or in non-rhotic
> speech re-introducing an 'r', again for the following
> syllable. Could this possibly be the origin of the linking-r?
>
> dshep

This is probably the case. It's not unusual in many languages to either
drop or keep final sounds depending on the word that follows. This is
especially noticeable in French, which does this with several
consonants. But the connecting -r, being a relatively unique situation
in English, was extended in some dialects to other words ending with a
schwa, even where there never used to be an -r. I believe this is a
linguistic process called "analogy" by which words of different classes
are adjusted to match.

Regards,
Joseph Spicer
·𐑡𐑴𐑕𐑧𐑓 ·𐑕𐑐𐑲𐑕𐑼

It's been quite a while since I started this project, and I'm just
beginning to see the results. I'm planning to post the upright font in
the files of this group for trial after it's complete enough to be
useable.

More information and a sample picture here:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/shavian/1696.html

Regards,
Joseph Spicer
·𐑡𐑴𐑕𐑧𐑓 ·𐑕𐑐𐑲𐑕𐑼

On Mar 25, 2005, at 3:59 PM, Joe wrote:

> It’s finally arrived:  I ordered a copy of Androcles and the Lion
> from a book store in Rugby in early February, and now I’ve finally got
> it.  And I have to say, the typography is somewhat nicer than I
> imagined.  I’ve already scanned one page at 1200 dpi (almost clearer
> than I can see it!), and I’m going to begin reproducing digital
> versions of Read’s fonts, as accurately as I can.  I have a lot of
> other things going on, though, so this may take some time.
>
> Now one point remains:  By what names would Read want his fonts to be
> called?