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Hi Steve
I took a look at
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/
shaw-pref-2.html#39sodif42

and it appears that Shaw had a simpler Vowel Structure in mind.
At one point it is 18 letterand in another Diagram you show only 22
Distinct letters. How did it get bumped up to the 24 Vowel letters and
Combined Vowels found in the original Shavian?

Seems like someone messed with the base design requirements.
I also notice that Ian is the considered the same as the Non-Rhotic Ear.
And Err and Air are also considered the same sound in some accents.
Comments?
Regards, Paul V.
_____________attached___________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Scott Harrison <nik@m...> wrote:
If anyone is interested, please let me know.
>
> --
> Scott

Paul,

Good question.
"How did the number of phonemes get bumped up?"

I can only speculate.
I think the will specified a minimum number of characters not a maximum.

This piece was written about ten years before Shaw's death.
His views may have been revised in the interim period.


--Steve

Hi Steve
I took a look at
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/
shaw-pref-2.html#39sodif42

and it appears that Shaw had a simpler Vowel Structure in mind.
At one point it is 18 letterand in another Diagram you show only 22
Distinct letters. How did it get bumped up to the 24 Vowel letters and
Combined Vowels found in the original Shavian?

Seems like someone messed with the base design requirements.
I also notice that Ian is the considered the same as the Non-Rhotic Ear.
And Err and Air are also considered the same sound in some accents.
Comments?
Regards, Paul V.

Hi Steve
Thanks for responding. I think that it was very important to include
the stock of Shavian Vowel letters, to include the basic Rhotic Vowel
Sounds, whatever that number might be.
Originally, I thought it would suffice to have
Array, Are, Air and Or, and skip the Err(Urge) and Ear.
I heard words including that sound, such as Ear as two distinct
sounds. Eat+Array
But then I noticed a few unstressed "ir" sounds where the sound
became somewhat reduced (unstressed) and sounded more like a unique
sound.
Cyril, Mirror, Teardrop, Career,
In words like Chirp, Stir, quirk, the unstressed "ir" sound has
devolved down to the Array sound, in any case.
Practically, we could just use the Appropriate Vowel letter + Array
when ever there is a compound sound or Syllabic R sound.
Which is what we do anyway with the more complicated R-sounds.
such as flower (flQD) fire (fFD) mayor (mED)
we would just add beer (bID) steer (stIr) sheer (SID) urge (DJ)
dirge (dDJ) purge (pDJ)
I don't know if we really need a bound form (Array) and an unbound
form (Err(Urge)) for the common "er" vowel sound.
I find the current rule based on stress to be confusing.
I presume there is a more obvious sound distintion in British
accented English.

Anyway, I just wish to point out that in the Original Design by GBS,
these Vowel distinctions where not made.
Regards, Paul V.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> Paul,
> Good question.
> "How did the number of phonemes get bumped up?"
>
> I can only speculate.
> I think the will specified a minimum number of characters not a
maximum.
>
> This piece was written about ten years before Shaw's death.
> His views may have been revised in the interim period.
> It appears that G.B. Shaw had a simpler Vowel Structure in mind,
originally.
> At one point it is 18 letters and in another Diagram you show only
22
> Distinct letters. How did it get bumped up to the 24 Vowel letters
and
> Combined Vowels found in the original Shavian?
>
> Seems like someone messed with the base design requirements.
> I also notice that Ian is the considered the same as the Non-
Rhotic Ear.
> And Err and Air are also considered the same sound in some accents.
> Comments?
>

On Jul 24, 2005, at 11:35 PM, paul vandenbrink wrote:

> Hi Joseph
> Welcome back.
> We have been in the Doldrums of Summer, over here. Just too Damn Hot,
> even up here in Toronto Canada. The States are cooking.
> Without Air-conditioning, we'd be in big trouble.

It's definitely been hot here in southern Indiana.

> We were looking at an alternate Shavian Keyboard mapping a little
> while ago.
> You seemed to be interested. It is mostly tweaking, but you do you
> think it is significantly easier to learn and use?

I do think the new adjustments could make the layout easier for those
who are new to Shavian, but I still don't like using the semicolon for
Oak. While it may be easier to type, it's probably not easier to
learn. I would suggest moving Oak to a shifted position since it's
really not especially common. Q might be a good key, since it
resembles O.

As for the rest, I guess I'd have to try it before I comment on the
specifics.

Regards,
Joseph Spicer
·𐑡𐑴𐑕𐑧𐑓 ·𐑕𐑐𐑲𐑕𐑼

Hi Joseph
That is a very reasonable suggestion.
If we use Key "q" for Oak
and Shift Key "Q" for Oil,
because I would like to keep the Dipthong Oil together with Oak,
then we only have to find a good key to Map to the Out sound.
Thanks for the Idea, Joseph.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I will look for what is available for Out.
___________________________________attached____________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Spicer <wurdbendur@g...>
wrote:
> On Jul 24, 2005, at 11:35 PM, paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > Hi Joseph
> > Welcome back.
> > We have been in the Doldrums of Summer, over here. Just too Damn
Hot,
> > even up here in Toronto Canada. The States are cooking.
> > Without Air-conditioning, we'd be in big trouble.
>
> It's definitely been hot here in southern Indiana.
>
> > We were looking at an alternate Shavian Keyboard mapping a little
> > while ago.
> > You seemed to be interested. It is mostly tweaking, but you do you
> > think it is significantly easier to learn and use?
>
> I do think the new adjustments could make the layout easier for
those
> who are new to Shavian, but I still don't like using the semicolon
for
> Oak. While it may be easier to type, it's probably not easier to
> learn. I would suggest moving Oak to a shifted position since it's
> really not especially common. Q might be a good key, since it
> resembles O.
>
> As for the rest, I guess I'd have to try it before I comment on the
> specifics.
>
> Regards,
> Joseph Spicer
> ·ð`¡ð`´ð`•ð`§ð`" ·ð`•ð`ð`²ð`•ð`¼

Ha VzMal kwurks aplF:

... ... ... ...

let us ramembD,
Qr veri On /burnyrd /SY--
NMz burTdE it is.

... ... ... ...

a glIm in Niz F,
amMzd At Yl Qr foliz--
urJih us forward.

... ... ... ...

for HOz ov V, if eni, AZ jet anfamiljD
wiT His enJqabal meTad ov akspreSan,
Ha tradiSanal form is TrI lFnz ov fFv,
sevan, And fFv silabalz raspektavli.
Ta /JApanIz (NMz invenSan it is) kansidD His
Ha optimal utDans HAt kAn bI spOkan
IZali in a singal breT.

... ... ... ...

az YwEz,
dSep
... ... ... ...

Scott Harrison wrote:

>
> Speaking of fonts, is anyone interested in donating their Unicode
> Shavian fonts so they can be included in the base set of fonts that
> Apple ships with their machines? There would be no compensation for
> the fonts and I am unsure as how they would actually be integrated (in
> other words, they could be combined into another font, or installed on
> their own). I am sure there would have to be some official paperwork
> to fill out for release, etc. This would be a great opportunity since
> all Apple computers using the latest operating system would be able to
> have Shavian work right out of the box without the users needing to do
> anything. If anyone is interested, please let me know.
>
> --
> Scott

I'm interested, although I would have to do up a special font file for
them. My current product is a mixture of multiple alphabets, and I
would want to donate just the Shavian portion. Perhaps I should do up
such a dedicated font anyway.

--
Ethan Lamoreaux - ·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 ·𐑤𐑨𐑥𐑩𐑮𐑴

Joseph Spicer wrote:

> I'd be glad to donate some fonts. Unfortunately, though, I use
> FontLab, which apparently doesn't allow me to encode any Unicode
> points outside of plane 0. If anybody knows a way to do this, please
> let me know. If not, I'll just have to find another way to remap them.
> But if anybody wants to download and remap any of my fonts, that would
> be good, too.

I can remap fonts for anybody who wants it done. Just email me off list.

--
Ethan Lamoreaux - ·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 ·𐑤𐑨𐑥𐑩𐑮𐑴

I today received a posting from another yahoo group containing a few
lines of Cyrillic amid the English.
This time it was correctly rendered, a change from a similar posting
two weeks ago.
The header gave the Content-Type as: text/plain; charset=UTF-8.
It may be time to run a few more tests.
BTW - using Apple Mail and Mac OSX now and two weeks ago.
jb

hF /Sep
hC iz mF humbal Atempt. iz it kYld /hFkM?

Qr gYd lUkiN dQn
cEnJD wxds t bAbals ripliN
evD cEnJiN strIm

wxds kRvd in Old stOn
bQnsiN ripalz round nV cYm
entrOpI awEts
nyt lYN

ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
__________________attached_______________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
> Ha VzMal kwurks aplF:
>
> ... ... ... ...
>
> let us ramembD,
> Qr veri On /burnyrd /SY--
> NMz burTdE it is.
>
> ... ... ... ...
>
> a glIm in Niz F,
> amMzd At Yl Qr foliz--
> urJih us forward.
>
> ... ... ... ...
>
> for HOz ov V, if eni, AZ jet anfamiljD
> wiT His enJqabal meTad ov akspreSan,
> Ha tradiSanal form is TrI lFnz ov fFv,
> sevan, And fFv silabalz raspektavli.
> Ta /JApanIz (NMz invenSan it is) kansidD His
> Ha optimal utDans HAt kAn bI spOkan
> IZali in a singal breT.
>
> ... ... ... ...
>
> az YwEz,
> dSep
> ... ... ... ...