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To this elderly American speaker with parents who spoke the cultivated rural
New England English favored in Oregon a century ago, pronouncing the "t" in
"often" is definitely substandard. The term "hypercorrection" is sometimes used
to describe pronunciations like "oftten". Speakers such as my parents were
very prone to hypercorrection, but what hypercorrections were correct was to a
considerable degree determined by social class, with "oftten" definitely declass
é.

Bob Richmond

Hi Hugh
Ah, yes.
We would all like to believe that writing/spelling does not influence
pronunciation.
That would be putting the cart before the horse.

The truth of the matter, is that young children persist in attempting to
make
their pronunciation more consistent/simple and have to be corrected until
they incorporate all
the exceptions.

Overall, widespread writing/literacy seems to be useful factor in keeping
the English language from haring off into such wide variation, that it would
be unintelliagable after a few generations in any place a few miles away
from home.
Regards, Paul V.
_____________________attached___________________________________________

>From: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
>Reply-To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
>To: <shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com>

>Over here in the UK, schoolchildren who "erroneously" pronounce the 't' are
>also told off, but any adults who still do so are still told off or looked
>down on. It's very much seen as an error here, not a dialectal difference.

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But does pronunciation sometimes prevent people from writing what they
intend? If not, what should one make of this kind of error which I
excerpted from spam received yesterday.

"Well, 14 months later and where still together and planning our marriage
for later this year."

It seems obvious that auditory memory trumps visual memory for many people.
How could one not recognize "where" as an adverb rather than a contracted
subject-verb? Is this, at least partially, a result of "wh" disappearing
from so many people's list of useful phonemes? And, did it not occur to the
writer that there ought to be an apostrophe in there somewhere?

For me, the vowel in "where" and "wear" are identical, but the vowel in
"we're" is not the same. Do some people pronounce all three words the same?
If not, then it makes the error even more difficult to justify.

Paige


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
To: <shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: [shawalphabet] Re: Most Common English Words 301-400


> Hi Hugh
> Ah, yes.
> We would all like to believe that writing/spelling does not influence
> pronunciation.
> That would be putting the cart before the horse.
>
> The truth of the matter, is that young children persist in attempting to
> make
> their pronunciation more consistent/simple and have to be corrected until
> they incorporate all
> the exceptions.
>
> Overall, widespread writing/literacy seems to be useful factor in keeping
> the English language from haring off into such wide variation, that it
would
> be unintelliagable after a few generations in any place a few miles away
> from home.
> Regards, Paul V.
> _____________________attached___________________________________________
>
> >From: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
> >Reply-To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com>
>
> >Over here in the UK, schoolchildren who "erroneously" pronounce the 't'
are
> >also told off, but any adults who still do so are still told off or
looked
> >down on. It's very much seen as an error here, not a dialectal
difference.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet
has
> to offer.
>
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID94&DI34&SU=htt
p://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
> Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the
> first two months FREE*.
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
>

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- Scott Harrison <nik@m...> wrote:


> There are a few conventions in Shavian of which one should be aware:
>
> the ð?`ž (H)
> of ð?`? (v)
> and ð?`¯ (n)
> to ð?`` (t)
>
> I would suggest we all stick to these conventions no matter what
> dialect we speak.
>
> Now, I always thought that dark was done as ð?`›ð?`¸ð?`' (dRk)
> instead of as above. And I also do things differently with words
> like little as well.
>

I am aware, but I disagree.

regards,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- wurdbendur@g... wrote:


> My signature is in Unicode. If it's not showing up, then it's either
> getting destroyed in transit (this has happened inexplicably a few
> times before), or you may lack a font containing Unicode Shavian. I
> also realized it was set to an unusual font (MPH 28 Damase) which most
> people won't have. Perhaps it will work now.
>
> Now I'll test some fonts, just to see what happens:
> His iz a test v H /AndraklIz font.
> His iz a test v H /fiS font.
> His iz a test v H /SY sAns # 2 font.
> His iz a test v H /lFanzpY font.
>
> Regards,
> Joseph Spicer
> ð?`¡ð?`´ð?`•ð?`©ð?`" ð?`•ð?`?ð?`²ð?`•ð?`¼

Thank you for the reply, but none of these worked for me no matter what
font or encoding I selected in my browser. Nor does your signature work.
I have Shaw Sans 2, that is unicode isn't it? I also have Lionspaw and Androcles.

However, the curious thing is that Ethan's reply and signature (message
1402) does come through in shavian in what appears to be Androcles.
I say appears because if transferred to a word-processing document the
font cannot be identified. And, as in Kirk's original message, no matter
what font or encoding I change to, it remains in shavian. Mysterious.

regards,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
>
> We ascertained months ago that anyone using Windows XP and Outlook or
> Outlook Express (a lot of people I can imagine) will simply not be able to
> view or write in Unicode Shavian. This will not change until Microsoft do
> something about it.

I use Mac's Safari browser and Mac's mail application Mail, both of which are
supposed to be unicode-friendly. The curious bit about this is that some
messages (1376 and 1402) have come through in shavian on the yahoo
interface, others not. The two test messages I sent , written in Shaw Sans 2,
I also first e-mailed to myself, with results in shavian. Neither test however
survived translation to either the yahoo interface or the e-mail digest.

persistently confounded,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
>
> dshepx wrote:
>
> >I think it interesting that you and I seem to be the only ones (?) who received
> >Kirk's message as intended. I have no idea why this should be so.
> >
> >regards,
> >dshep
> >
> >
> F got it tM. it sDprFzd mI, tM, but OnlI bIkuz it wuz in H /AndraklIz
> font, lFk His.
>
> --
> Ethan Lamoreaux - in Shavian, ·???? ·??????
>
> The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
> The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
> The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.


Ethan,

Your message (and signature) came through as intended. Do you do
anything special to make this work? Why should Androcles work and
not the others, I wonder. Also, did you reply in the yahoo interface or
through an e-mail?

regards,
dshep

On Jan 24, 2006, at 10:00 PM, shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>>> Have you ever heard someone say off=ten with the t-sound?
--- Yes, orphan. (Pirates of Penzance)

Sorry, used to know the dialogue by heart.
But really I wanted to say:
𐑙𐑨𐑐𐑰 𐑯𐑿 𐑘𐑽
𐑡𐑪𐑯 𐑚𐑳𐑮𐑴𐑟

(Mac OS X, pasted in using Special Characters box in mailer)
- and my copy of Damase v2 shows Arabic. Why?

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
>
> To this elderly American speaker with parents who spoke the cultivated rural
> New England English favored in Oregon a century ago, pronouncing the "t" in
> "often" is definitely substandard. The term "hypercorrection" is sometimes used
> to describe pronunciations like "oftten". Speakers such as my parents were
> very prone to hypercorrection, but what hypercorrections were correct was to a
> considerable degree determined by social class, with "oftten" definitely declass
> é.
>
> Bob Richmond


I've also heard the term "spelling pronunciation" to identify such usage. Whenever
I hear ofTen I write out the word "answer" and ask the speaker to pronounce that.
Giggles usually result.

Did your parents use the "New England short-o" in words such as "stone"?

regards,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> >
> > dshepx wrote:
> >
> > >I think it interesting that you and I seem to be the only ones (?) who received
> > >Kirk's message as intended. I have no idea why this should be so.
> > >
> > >regards,
> > >dshep
> > >
> > >
> > F got it tM. it sDprFzd mI, tM, but OnlI bIkuz it wuz in H /AndraklIz
> > font, lFk His.
> >
> > --
> > Ethan Lamoreaux - in Shavian, ·???? ·??????
> >
> > The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
> > The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
> > The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
>
>
> Ethan,
>
> Your message (and signature) came through as intended. Do you do
> anything special to make this work? Why should Androcles work and
> not the others, I wonder. Also, did you reply in the yahoo interface or
> through an e-mail?
>
> regards,
> dshep
>

This is odd. Your original message came through in shavian, but my reply,
which contained your message, converted your text to keyboard romanji,
if that is what keyboard shavian is called.

regards again,
dshep