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paul vandenbrink wrote:

>Hi Ethan
>Nice to see you are getting back into the swing of things.
>Unfortuantely, I can't answer all your questions in one post.
>I will try to reply to the remaining ones later.
>
>First, is there such a thing as a Roman to Shavian
>translation/transliteration program?
>
>I think we are just developing the design at this point.
>It would be a two step process.
>As we discussed in my last post.
>The first step is to translate all of the known words through
>a program. The program would also mark all un-translated words
>either with a leading and following Asterisk and all words with
>multiple Shavian interpretation with the different Shavian words
>enclosed in curly braces. This would be the rough translation.
>Any abbreviations, mis-spellings or new words be flagged.
>
>The rough translation would be run through another interactive
>program,
>where an educated literate English speaker would pick the appropriate
>Shavian word from the list and expand the Abbreviations into normal
>words or an acceptable abbreviation from the Shavian Database.
>
>Your second question I am answering, is why was I asking
>How many additional letters, would have to be added to Shavian
>to allow a Roman equivalent pronunciation?
>
>This question refers back to our, so far, imaginary Roman to Shavian
>translation/transliteration program. In particular, the first part
>that does the rough translation. If the program gets a mis-spelling
>or some new English word or Abbreviation, that it can not
>automatically figure
>out an equivalent Shavian translation for, it should pass the word
>through untouched in Shavian letters. That would better than having
>to fiddle with 2 Fonts.
>
>The Roman Letter equivalents in Shavian are as follows:
>
>Roman Shavian
>a => Age
>b => Bib
>c => ?
>d => Dead
>e => Eat
>f => Fee
>g => Gag
>h => Ha-ha
>i => Ice
>j => Judge
>k => Kick
>l => Loll
>m => Mime
>n => Nun
>o => Oak
>p => Peep
>q => ?
>r => Roar
>s => So
>t => Tot
>u => Yew
>v => Vow
>w => Woe
>x => ?
>y => Yea
>z => Zoo
>
>
>
>>Offhand, I would think we would only need to find a way to
>>represent the C, Q and X Roman Letters in Shavian.
>>All the other Roman Letters have Shavian
>>Equivalents. See above.
>>Then we wouldn't have to fiddle with 2 different Fonts.
>>
>>
>
>Regards, Paul V.
>
>P.S. I suppose we could use the # (Pound), $ (Dollar) and % (Percent)
>signs to represent Q, C, and X respectively.
>They are not used much in normal English.
>Any other suggestions? Concerning the way the rough transliteration
>should look that is.
>
>

Thanks, Paul. I will have to see if there's something I can do with
this. I definitely am interested in having a way to do automated
translation into Shavian, because I have a lot of translation to do. I
was studying some information I found on programming, and I believe I
might have an inkling of how to make it work in a program. Your ideas
are definitely a help - the more ideas we get, the better chance of
creating something everyone can use.

--
Ethan


>_______________attached________________________
>--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
>Now, since I didn't catch a bunch of messages from that
>time last year, did anybody actually do anything with the suggestions
>that were made?
>Do we have such a thing as a Roman to Shavian
>
>
>>translation program? I've been pondering the possibility of making
>>
>>
>such
>
>
>>a thing for a while now, even though I'm not much of a programmer
>>myself. I kind of like the idea of having a program which can
>>
>>
>operate
>
>
>>with a designated substitution list, or will make a list by
>>
>>
>prompting
>
>
>>the user if none has been supplied ahead of time.
>>
>>Embedding the alternates in the the output text, using curly
>>
>>
>brackets,
>
>
>>sounds like a good idea to me. It requires no user intervention
>>
>>
>during
>
>
>>the conversion process, thus makes it possible to run lots of text
>>through the convertor without interruption. Then the only thing
>>necessary is to open the text with a text editor and do a search
>>
>>
>for
>
>
>>curly brackets, and change each word to the one the context demands.
>>
>>I'm not quite sure I follow you regarding the adding of C, Q, and X
>>
>>
>to
>
>
>>Shavian. Could you explain that a bit further?
>>
>>

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sun flQerz, lIf arEnJments on stYks, /mOtzyrt, /bEtOven, insekt
segments, H pyrTenon, n a hjMmAn lFiN in a spred-Igeld poziSon wiH H
nEvel bIiN H egzAkt senter v H sirkel drYn arQnd H bodi?

Hi - Sorry not to reply in Shaw Alphabet, but can't quite make it all work on
this list

1.618+ is the Fibonacci ratio, the ratio that the Fibonacci series converges
on with an increasing number of elements in the series.

When I was 15 living in Germany I bought a "goldene Zirkel" - golden compass
- a caliper that would draw the side of Fibonacci rectangle. I still have it
around someplace, I think, more than half a century later - I was a high school
student living in Germany back then - now I have such a compass in beautiful
hardowood, reposing on my desk at work.

Bob Richmond

Hi Ethan
The first issue that was brought up to produce some kind of
resolution to the design of the Shavian Ha-ha and Hung letters.
My suggestion was first to retain the Shape of the Ha-ha letter,
but align it differently. Move it upwards into the Tall position.
We could even make it into a new letter and call it, Ox and
make it into an Oval with 2 horns protruding
from the top of the oval.
As for Hung, I thought the shape of the letter should be changed to
eliminate any correspondence with Ha-ha or Ox,
since Ha-ha and Hung are not part of a
normal voiced/unvoiced Consonant Pair, like the rest of the
Shavian Consonants. I'd like to see it in the form of Short Letter,
preferably in something of the same shape as the Tilde.
But I am certainly open to other suggestions as to the the shape.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Another shape that comes to mind for Hung is the idealized fish
shape
that Chris+ians use.
____________________attached___________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
> Hi Ethan
> Nice to see you are getting back into the swing of things.
> Unfortuantely, I can't answer all your questions in one post.
> I will try to reply to the remaining ones later.
> _______________attached________________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethanl@> wrote:
> Now, since I didn't catch a bunch of messages from that
> time last year, did anybody actually do anything with the suggestions
> that were made?

Paul Vandenbrink brings up changing the alphabet once again:
>>to produce some kind of resolution to the design of the Shavian Ha-ha and
Hung letters.<< etc.

I really don't think we have the authority to change the Shaw Alphabet, in
spite of its obvious imperfections. As it turned out, even Kingsley Read didn't
have the authority to change it - he had no way to disseminate his changes,
and neither do we. Androcles remains the medium by which most people know about
the Shaw Alphabet, not Kingsley Read and not this forum.

An analogy - high school language teachers often think they have the
authority to change a foreign language, to make it easier for the students - I
remember in my high school a particularly bad Spanish teacher who announced that we
wouldn't learn the familiar ("tu") forms. - This problem is supposed to be rife
with ASL (sign language) teachers.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC

Just out of interest: (www.dictionary.com)

"translate": to render in another language, to express in different words
"transliterate": to represent (letters or words) in the corresponding
characters of another alphabet

Hugh B


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of paul vandenbrink
> Sent: 09 May 2006 05:43
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: Text conversion and homonyms
>
> Hi Ethan
> The first issue that was brought up to produce some kind of
> resolution to the design of the Shavian Ha-ha and Hung letters.
> My suggestion was first to retain the Shape of the Ha-ha letter,
> but align it differently. Move it upwards into the Tall position.
> We could even make it into a new letter and call it, Ox and
> make it into an Oval with 2 horns protruding
> from the top of the oval.
> As for Hung, I thought the shape of the letter should be changed to
> eliminate any correspondence with Ha-ha or Ox,
> since Ha-ha and Hung are not part of a
> normal voiced/unvoiced Consonant Pair, like the rest of the
> Shavian Consonants. I'd like to see it in the form of Short Letter,
> preferably in something of the same shape as the Tilde.
> But I am certainly open to other suggestions as to the the shape.
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. Another shape that comes to mind for Hung is the idealized fish
> shape
> that Chris+ians use.
> ____________________attached___________________________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
> > Hi Ethan
> > Nice to see you are getting back into the swing of things.
> > Unfortuantely, I can't answer all your questions in one post.
> > I will try to reply to the remaining ones later.
> > _______________attached________________________
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethanl@> wrote:
> > Now, since I didn't catch a bunch of messages from that
> > time last year, did anybody actually do anything with the suggestions
> > that were made?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

You know, I found while writing it, that those problems that we see
with it as a typed language seem to vanish. The ha-ha/hung debate seems
to change as it is easy to start a word with the ha-ha character, and
end with the hung character. I realise that typing changes everything,
but I have to be the devil's advocate and speak for those of us who
hand write.

--- RSRICHMOND@... wrote:

> Paul Vandenbrink brings up changing the alphabet once again:
> >>to produce some kind of resolution to the design of the Shavian
> Ha-ha and
> Hung letters.<< etc.
>
> I really don't think we have the authority to change the Shaw
> Alphabet, in
> spite of its obvious imperfections. As it turned out, even Kingsley
> Read didn't
> have the authority to change it - he had no way to disseminate his
> changes,
> and neither do we. Androcles remains the medium by which most people
> know about
> the Shaw Alphabet, not Kingsley Read and not this forum.
>
> An analogy - high school language teachers often think they have the
> authority to change a foreign language, to make it easier for the
> students - I
> remember in my high school a particularly bad Spanish teacher who
> announced that we
> wouldn't learn the familiar ("tu") forms. - This problem is supposed
> to be rife
> with ASL (sign language) teachers.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC
>


=========
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RSRICHMOND@... wrote:

> Paul Vandenbrink brings up changing the alphabet once again:
> >>to produce some kind of resolution to the design of the Shavian
> Ha-ha and Hung letters.<< etc.
>
> I really don't think we have the authority to change the Shaw
> Alphabet, in spite of its obvious imperfections. As it turned out,
> even Kingsley Read didn't have the authority to change it - he had no
> way to disseminate his changes, and neither do we. Androcles remains
> the medium by which most people know about the Shaw Alphabet, not
> Kingsley Read and not this forum.
>
> An analogy - high school language teachers often think they have the
> authority to change a foreign language, to make it easier for the
> students - I remember in my high school a particularly bad Spanish
> teacher who announced that we wouldn't learn the familiar ("tu")
> forms. - This problem is supposed to be rife with ASL (sign language)
> teachers.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC

This is why I prefer to continue using the traditional forms, at least
until (and if) a consensus is made for a change. Changes can be made,
but there must be agreement, and it must go further than just this forum.

--
Ethan

paul vandenbrink wrote:

>Hi Ethan
>The first issue that was brought up to produce some kind of
>resolution to the design of the Shavian Ha-ha and Hung letters.
>My suggestion was first to retain the Shape of the Ha-ha letter,
>but align it differently. Move it upwards into the Tall position.
>We could even make it into a new letter and call it, Ox and
>make it into an Oval with 2 horns protruding
>from the top of the oval.
>As for Hung, I thought the shape of the letter should be changed to
>eliminate any correspondence with Ha-ha or Ox,
>since Ha-ha and Hung are not part of a
>normal voiced/unvoiced Consonant Pair, like the rest of the
>Shavian Consonants. I'd like to see it in the form of Short Letter,
>preferably in something of the same shape as the Tilde.
>But I am certainly open to other suggestions as to the the shape.
>Regards, Paul V.
>P.S. Another shape that comes to mind for Hung is the idealized fish
>shape
>that Chris+ians use.
>
>
That all sounds interesting, and may be useful. I would definitely not
be in favor of a simple switch or reversal of the haha/hung pair,
because that causes too much confusion. A new *short* form of hung
(making it comparable to mime and nun) might just do the trick, while
raising the haha to the tall position without changing its appearance.
Personally, though, I will continue using the existing letters as-is for
now, at least until someone develops a better means of writing them, in
which case, if there appears to be a consensus building, I would be
willing to change most likely.

You mentioned the tilde shape. It seems a bit long to me. Also the
fish symbol - the point makes it harder to write, plus it could be
considered offensive to some people (yes, the intolerant type, but we
need to be as inoffensive as possible) so what about something similar
to a lowercase Greek Alpha? Basically like a rounded fish symbol, or
Hung on its side. Or the reverse of that, with the "horns" on the left.

>____________________attached___________________________________
>--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
><pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi Ethan
>>Nice to see you are getting back into the swing of things.
>>Unfortuantely, I can't answer all your questions in one post.
>>I will try to reply to the remaining ones later.
>>_______________attached________________________
>>--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethanl@> wrote:
>>Now, since I didn't catch a bunch of messages from that
>>time last year, did anybody actually do anything with the suggestions
>>that were made?
>>
>>

Ethan says:

>>Changes can be made, but there must be agreement, and it must go further
than just this forum.<<

Alas, what is there beyond this forum?

Bob Richmond