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Thanks for the information. I was surprised and interested to learn
that the pin-pen merger is becoming more widespread. I try to avoid
being judgmental about anyone's dialect. Language is a human construct
of amazing complexity, but also arbitrariness. A particular dialect may
be considered "standard," because more people speak it, but that does
not make it better than a less widely spoken dialect. I do not believe
there is any independent measurement of a dialect's "worth." An
individual's negative statements regarding a particular dialect strike
me as more revealing of that person's prejudices, which are probably
rooted in their class and social position, than of any objective
measurement of dialect worth.

I view the pin-pen merger in my speech as a regionalism. Referring to
it as a "weed" was intended to be humorous and indicative of the
difficulty of changing a characteristic of long standing. If I could
alter my speech to pronounce short-e before a nasal rather than short-i,
then my speech might sound less regional, but it doesn't really bother
me greatly one way or the other.

Here is a story you might find interesting: a few years ago while
vacationing in Hilton Head, I had the occasion to talk with a South
Carolina or Georgia native (I forget which), who had a doctorate degree
and a delightful Southern accent. She stated she had always been proud
of her accent and had never tried to change it, despite having married a
Yankee and living up North for a number of years. She was annoyed at
the stereotype of the dumb Southerner, however. She stated that on more
than one occasion she had been at social gatherings in (I believe)
Connecticut in which topics of the day were being discussed. After she
joined in the conversation for the first time, she noticed that the
Connecticut natives suddenly started talking more slowly and using
simpler words when addressing her as if she were a simpleton. She was
convinced that her accent caused this sudden change in attitude toward
her.

Paige

dshepx wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:shawalphabet%40yahoogroups.com>, long-time
> --- (and in my opinion always sensible) contributor
> --- pgabhart wrote:
>
> >" I should note that that I have the pin-pen merger in my
> > dialect. Now that I have become aware of it, I have been
> > attempting to root (it) out, but I find it a stubborn weed."
>
> The test is whether you distinguish, on a regular basis,
> without conscious effort, between the vowels of "thin"
> and "then".
>
> But do not be too overly alarmed. According to Wlliam
> Labov of the University of Pennsylvania, whose speciality
> has long been American accents, and as reported in
> William MacNeil's "Do You Speak American?", a sequel of
> sorts to his earlier "The Story of English" the pin/pen
> merger, or to be be more exact, an i/e merger before
> nasals, is spreading, perhaps unnoticed, throughout the
> United States, and may in fact already be the majority
> pronunciation. Moreover, the speech area from whence
> it originated, the Inland South, again as reported in the
> book mentioned above, may well become, in time, the
> new Standard American, as surveys reveal that, while it
> is not the preferred speech-form to be learned by
> aspiring television anchors, is the speech-form most
> used, admired, or imitated by "ordinary" people with
> ordinary jobs. Perhaps one could say a parallel
> development to the growth of Estuary English in
> England, undermining RP.
>
> This particular accent, or dialect, whichever definition
> one prefers, is the speech of Bill Clinton, the recent
> Oscar-winner George Clooney, and aspiring Presidential
> candidate Bill Frist, currently Senate majority leader, and
> therefore bi-partison in scope. It also reflects the growing
> political clout of the southern states, whose assent
> apparently is now needed for any policy changes the
> United States may desire to undertake (or president it elects).
> The so-called sun-belt states continue to grow in both wealth
> and population as opposed to the midwest, the home-base
> of the so-called General American accent, and this growth
> will necessarily result in cultural changes, whether one
> approves or not. I hope this does not upset you too much,
> but change seldom does.
>
> with regards,
> dshep
>
>

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- pgabhart <pgabhart@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the information. I was surprised and interested
> to learn that the pin-pen merger is becoming more widespread.
> I try to avoid being judgmental about anyone's dialect. Language
> is a human construct of amazing complexity, but also arbitrariness.
> A particular dialect may be considered "standard," because more
> people speak it, but that does not make it better than a less widely
> spoken dialect. I do not believe there is any independent
> measurement of a dialect's "worth." An individual's negative
> statements regarding a particular dialect strike me as more
> revealing of that person's prejudices, which are probably rooted
> in their class and social position, than of any objective
> measurement of dialect worth.

....

I agree entirely with the above. I'm sure that you have heard an
old saying that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy
to support and enforce it.

....

> I view the pin-pen merger in my speech as a regionalism.
> Referring to it as a "weed" was intended to be humorous and
> indicative of the difficulty of changing a characteristic of long
> standing. If I could alter my speech to pronounce short-e before
> a nasal rather than short-i, then my speech might sound less
> regional, but it doesn't really bother me greatly one way or the
> other.

....

I was not necessarily defending the pin/pen merger, only
commenting upon the inescapable fact that language changes,
and if one is fortunate to live long enough one will almost
certainly witness changes that are not always personally
agreeable. For myself I regret deeply the general loss of
aspiration in what/why/where words, but hwat can one do
in the face of such widespread neglect? For hwat it's worth
Shaw's own Professor Henry Higgins would surely have been
appalled and exasperated. The pin/pen merger is however
interesting because it is one that has proceeded largely
unnoticed, as you yourself have perhaps discovered in your
own speech, a development opposed to, say, the deliberate
choice of some people now to pronounce the 't' in "often, or
to pronounce "forehead" as "4head", examples of spelling
pronunciation assumed to be somehow more correct.

Incidentally, the newscaster Dan Rather, lately of CBS, and
a Texan, went to great lengths to alter his natural inclination
to pronounce pen as pin, as Texans generally do, so that it
always came out as a very pronounced form something like
pEn; very funny.
....

> Here is a story you might find interesting: a few years ago
> while vacationing in Hilton Head, I had the occasion to talk
> with a South Carolina or Georgia native (I forget which), who
> had a doctorate degree and a delightful Southern accent.
> She stated she had always been proud of her accent and
> had never tried to change it, despite having married a Yankee
> and living up North for a number of years. She was annoyed at
> the stereotype of the dumb Southerner, however. She stated
> that on more than one occasion she had been at social gatherings
> in (I believe) Connecticut in which topics of the day were being
> discussed. After she joined in the conversation for the first time,
> she noticed that the Connecticut natives suddenly started talking
> more slowly and using simpler words when addressing her as if
> she were a simpleton. She was convinced that her accent caused
> this sudden change in attitude toward her.
>
> Paige

....

I know of similar encounters, one especially I remember from
an account by and about an esteemed linguist named Raven
McDavid, who was a key contributer to a multi-volume work
entitled American Regional English, who apparently spoke in
a deep-south fashion, and in spite of his academic credentials
(and accomplishments) was according to legend routinely
regarded as semi-literate whenever meeting people at various
social gatherings at northern universities, to everyone's
amusement (or later embarrassment). Southern politicians
have learned to use this expected response to great effect
by, as it were, playing dumb while acting smart, thus getting
their way when you've stopped paying attention. Whether the
current President is actually playing or not you must decide
for yourself.

Inland Southern however is not quite the same as the traditional
concept of the southern accent. While it does share many
characteristics it is, unlike the speech of the deep south,
generally rhotic, though not as much so as can be found in
other parts of the country. It is, according to Robert MacNeil's
book (and accompanying television series) now largely disseminated
by truckers and the like who move freely about the country (taking
country music with them), a social movement that largely escapes
the attention of (or is ignored by) the academic world.

This may be a regular occurrence in the life of any particular
culture. Dictionaries once either did not recognize, for example,
the cot-caught merger, or the pronunciation of 'new' as 'noo', or
if they did, strongly disapproved; today's dictionaries record this
as normal. It would appear that the speakers that spoke that way
and prevailed did not let the lack of scholarly approbation deter
them; I suspect today's truckers are similarly unaffected.

c'est la vie.
dshep

************
pRt 3

His dredfUl nqz hAd YlmOst distrAted /JAk, hO, gOiN t H windO, biheld
afR of H tM JFAnts kamiN tPdz H kAsl. "nQ," kwOT /JAk t himself, "mF
deT P mF dilivxens iz At hAnd." nQ, HX wx stroN kPdz in a kPnx v H rMm
in wic /JAk waz, n tM v HIz hI tUk, n mEd a stroN nMs At H end; n wFl
H JFAnts wx unlokiN H Fxn gEt v H kAsl hI HrM H rOps Ovx Ic v HX
hedz. Hen drYiN H aTx endz akros a bIm, n pUliN wiT Yl hiz mFt, hI
Hrotld Hem. Hen sIiN HE wx blAk in H fEs, n slFdiN dQn H rOp, hI kEm t
HX hedz, wen HE kUd not difend Hemselvz, n drYiN hiz sPd, slM Hem
bOT. Hen, tEkiN H JFAnt'z kIz, n unlokiN H rMmz, hI fQnd HrI fX lEdIz
tFd bF H hX v HX hedz, YlmOst stRvd t deT. "swIt lEdIz," kwOT /JAk, "F
hAv distrqd His monstx n hiz brMtiS braHx, n abtEnd jx libxtIz." His
sed, hI prizented Hem wiT H kIz, n sO prOsIded on hiz JxnI t
/wElz. hAviN but litl manI, /JAk fQnd it wel t mEk H best v hiz wE bF
trAvliN Az fAst Az hI kUd, but lMziN hiz rOd, hI waz binFted, n kUd
not get a plEs v entxtEnment until, kamiN intM a nXO vAlI, hI fQnd a
lRJ hQs, n bF rIsan v hiz prezent nIdz tUk kxEJ t nok At H gEt. but
wat waz hiz sxprFz wen HX kEm fPT a monstrus JFAnt wiT tM hedz; jet hI
did not apC sO fFxI Az H aTxz wx, f hI waz a /welS JFAnt, n wat hI did
waz bF prFvAt n sIkret mAlis undx H fYls SO v frendSip. /JAk, hAviN
tOld hiz kandiSen t H JFAnt, waz SOn intM a bedrMm, wX, in H ded v
nFt, hI hxd hiz hOst in anaTx apRtment mutxiN HIz wxdz --

"HO hC V loJ wiT mI His nFt
V SAl not sI H mPniN lFt:
mF klub SAl dAS jx brEnz QtrFt!"

sE'st HQ sO," kwOT /JAk; HAt iz lFk wan v jx /welS triks, jet F hOp t
bI kuniN Inaf f V." Hen gitiN Qt v bed, hI lEd a bilit in H bed in his
sted, n hid himselv in a kPnx v H rMm. At H ded tFm v H nFt in kEm H
/welS JFAnt, hO struk sevral hevI blOz on H bed wiT hiz klub, HinkiN
hI hAd brOken evrI bOn in /JAk'z skin. H neks mPniN /JAk, lAfiN in hiz
slIv. gEv him hRtI HANks f hiz nFt's loJiN. "hQ hAv V rested?" kwOT H
JFAnt; "did V not fIl enITiN in H nFt?" "nO," kwOT /JAk, "naTiN but a
rAt, wic gAv mI tM P TrI slAps wiT hx tEl" wiT HAt, grEtlI wandxiN, H
JFAnt led /JAk t brekfAst, briNiN him a bOl kantEniN fP gAlanz v hEstI
pUdiN. bIiN lOT t let H JFAnt HiNk it tM muc f him, /JAk pUt a lRJ
leTx bAg undx hiz lMs kOt, in suc a wE HAt hI kUd kanvE H pUdiN intM
it wiTQt its bIiN pxsIvd. Hen, teliN H JFAnt hI wUd SO him a trik,
tEkiN a nFf, /JAk ripd Open H bAg, n Qt kEm Yl H hEstI pUdiN. wXupon,
sEiN, "odz splutxz, hx kAn dM HAt trik hxself," H monstx tUk H nFf, n
ripd Open hiz belI, fel dQn ded.

nQ, it fel in Hez dEz HAt /kiN RTx'z OnlI san rikwested hiz fYHx t
fxniS him wiT a lRJ sum v manI, in Pdx HAt hI mFt gO n sIk hiz fPcen
in H prinsipAlitI v /wElz, wX livd a bVtifal lEdI pOsesd wiT seven
Ival spCitz. H kiN did hiz best t pxswEd hiz san fram it, but in vEn;
sO At lAst grAnted H rikwest, n H prins set Qt wiT tM hPsez, wan lOded
wiT manI, H aTx f himself t rFd upon. nQ Aftx sevral dEz trAvl, hI kEm
t a mRket-tQn in /wElz, wX hI biheld a vAst konkPs v pIpl gATxd
tMgeTx. H prins dimAnded H rIsan v it, n waz tOld HAt HE hAd arested a
kPps f sevral lRJ sumz f manI wic H desIsd Od wen hI dFd. H prins
riplFd HAt it waz a pitI kreditxz SUd bI sO krMal, n sed, "gO bXI H
ded, n let hiz kreditxz kam t mF loJiN, n HX dets SAl bI discRJd." HE
akPdiNlI kEm, but in suc grEt numbxz HAt bifP nFt hI hAd YlmOst left
himself manIles.

************
bitmAp -- pRtz 1 HrM 3:
http://img482.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jack3pq0.png

************

regRdz,
/brFAn /AlJxI
http://shavian.metabright.com/

It scares me to think that the one of the contributing factors for
the many variations in vowel production and recognition in English,
is that the normal growth and simplification of pronunciation is totally
unchecked by the lack of a common phonetic spelling for English words.
Nobody has any recourse to any ideal or standard spoken version of English.
There is a standard written form, but no standard for pronunciation.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I am not against dialects or other forms of variation or
simplification.
I am just not ready to abandon, some arbitary standard to measure
these dialects against.
P.P.S Unchecked Dialects evolve into new languages
that are incomprensable. For example, Latin evolved into about 10 distinct
and different Romance languages.
__________________attached________________________
>From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>
>Reply-To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
>To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: Apologies
>Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 05:21:33 -0000
>
>--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
>--- pgabhart <pgabhart@...> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the information. I was surprised and interested
> > to learn that the pin-pen merger is becoming more widespread.
> > I try to avoid being judgmental about anyone's dialect. Language
> > is a human construct of amazing complexity, but also arbitrariness.
> > A particular dialect may be considered "standard," because more
> > people speak it, but that does not make it better than a less widely
> > spoken dialect. I do not believe there is any independent
> > measurement of a dialect's "worth." An individual's negative
> > statements regarding a particular dialect strike me as more
> > revealing of that person's prejudices, which are probably rooted
> > in their class and social position, than of any objective
> > measurement of dialect worth.
>
>....
>
>I agree entirely with the above. I'm sure that you have heard an
>old saying that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy
>to support and enforce it.
>
>....
>
> > I view the pin-pen merger in my speech as a regionalism.
> > Referring to it as a "weed" was intended to be humorous and
> > indicative of the difficulty of changing a characteristic of long
> > standing. If I could alter my speech to pronounce short-e before
> > a nasal rather than short-i, then my speech might sound less
> > regional, but it doesn't really bother me greatly one way or the
> > other.
>
>....
>
>I was not necessarily defending the pin/pen merger, only
>commenting upon the inescapable fact that language changes,
>and if one is fortunate to live long enough one will almost
>certainly witness changes that are not always personally
>agreeable. For myself I regret deeply the general loss of
>aspiration in what/why/where words, but hwat can one do
>in the face of such widespread neglect? For hwat it's worth
>Shaw's own Professor Henry Higgins would surely have been
>appalled and exasperated. The pin/pen merger is however
>interesting because it is one that has proceeded largely
>unnoticed, as you yourself have perhaps discovered in your
>own speech, a development opposed to, say, the deliberate
>choice of some people now to pronounce the 't' in "often, or
>to pronounce "forehead" as "4head", examples of spelling
>pronunciation assumed to be somehow more correct.
>
>Incidentally, the newscaster Dan Rather, lately of CBS, and
>a Texan, went to great lengths to alter his natural inclination
>to pronounce pen as pin, as Texans generally do, so that it
>always came out as a very pronounced form something like
>pEn; very funny.
>....
>
> > Here is a story you might find interesting: a few years ago
> > while vacationing in Hilton Head, I had the occasion to talk
> > with a South Carolina or Georgia native (I forget which), who
> > had a doctorate degree and a delightful Southern accent.
> > She stated she had always been proud of her accent and
> > had never tried to change it, despite having married a Yankee
> > and living up North for a number of years. She was annoyed at
> > the stereotype of the dumb Southerner, however. She stated
> > that on more than one occasion she had been at social gatherings
> > in (I believe) Connecticut in which topics of the day were being
> > discussed. After she joined in the conversation for the first time,
> > she noticed that the Connecticut natives suddenly started talking
> > more slowly and using simpler words when addressing her as if
> > she were a simpleton. She was convinced that her accent caused
> > this sudden change in attitude toward her.
> >
> > Paige
>
>....
>
>I know of similar encounters, one especially I remember from
>an account by and about an esteemed linguist named Raven
>McDavid, who was a key contributer to a multi-volume work
>entitled American Regional English, who apparently spoke in
>a deep-south fashion, and in spite of his academic credentials
>(and accomplishments) was according to legend routinely
>regarded as semi-literate whenever meeting people at various
>social gatherings at northern universities, to everyone's
>amusement (or later embarrassment). Southern politicians
>have learned to use this expected response to great effect
>by, as it were, playing dumb while acting smart, thus getting
>their way when you've stopped paying attention. Whether the
>current President is actually playing or not you must decide
>for yourself.
>
>Inland Southern however is not quite the same as the traditional
>concept of the southern accent. While it does share many
>characteristics it is, unlike the speech of the deep south,
>generally rhotic, though not as much so as can be found in
>other parts of the country. It is, according to Robert MacNeil's
>book (and accompanying television series) now largely disseminated
>by truckers and the like who move freely about the country (taking
>country music with them), a social movement that largely escapes
>the attention of (or is ignored by) the academic world.
>
>This may be a regular occurrence in the life of any particular
>culture. Dictionaries once either did not recognize, for example,
>the cot-caught merger, or the pronunciation of 'new' as 'noo', or
>if they did, strongly disapproved; today's dictionaries record this
>as normal. It would appear that the speakers that spoke that way
>and prevailed did not let the lack of scholarly approbation deter
>them; I suspect today's truckers are similarly unaffected.
>
>c'est la vie.
>dshep
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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http://q6trivia.imagine-live.com/enca/landing

Hi Folks,

I've recently completed a Sub-set of Shavian I've named Shavian 38,
because it uses 38 Letters, rather than the traditional 48 Letters.
I've even came up with a sequence for the 38 letters, in a fashion
similiar to Unifon's sequence. The names of the letters are the
same as the traditional example names of Shavian letters with 2
exceptions. Instead of "egg", I use "echo" and instead of "wool", I
use "book". The reason for the change is that it better matches my
Utahn Dialect of English. I pronounce "egg" like "AYg" rather
than "Ehg" -- so I use "Echo" for this vowels name. And I
pronounce "wool" like "wOHl" rather "wUHl" -- so I use "Book" for
this vowels name.

With Shavian 38, I use every phoneme that is found in my Utahn
Dialect of English. So I don't use "on" and "un". I use alot of
schwa's or "ado's". And of course I don't use the ligatures or
compound letters anymore.

For any questions or comments or corrections,

Give me a reply,

Best of regards,

Carl (Shavian Enthusiast)

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Carl G. Easton" wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I've recently completed a Sub-set of Shavian I've named Shavian
38, because it uses 38 Letters, rather than the traditional 48
Letters. I've even came up with a sequence for the 38 letters, in a
fashion similiar to Unifon's sequence. The names of the letters are
the same as the traditional example names of Shavian letters with 2
exceptions. Instead of "egg", I use "echo" and instead of "wool", I
use "book". The reason for the change is that it better matches my
Utahn Dialect of English. I pronounce "egg" like "AYg" rather
than "Ehg" -- so I use "Echo" for this vowels name. And I
pronounce "wool" like "wOHl" rather "wUHl" -- so I use "Book" for
this vowels name.
>
> With Shavian 38, I use every phoneme that is found in my Utahn
Dialect of English. So I don't use "on" and "un". I use alot of
schwa's or "ado's". And of course I don't use the ligatures or
compound letters anymore.
>
> For any questions or comments or corrections,
> Give me a reply,

Hey Carl!

Which 38, and what are their names?

Regards,
Yahya

Uh, Carl? I see an intrinsic issue with cutting down to 38 out of 48,
and that being that Shaw specifically said that there should be more
than 40 letters, if I recall correctly. Why not cut it down to 26
letters and... well, maybe not. But the point being that English is a
complex language, and paring down an alphabet seems like regression
back to the ill suited TO.

Most of the ones that you mentioned, while suited for you, are not
suited for others. I find myself using the rhotics because, as we all
learned when reading, a vowel + R combination makes a different sound
than a simple vowel, and it makes reading faster and easier at least
for me. The on/ah problem is going to persist for some, and not for
others, I think it's dependant on how varied your own vowel usage is,
and the up/ado problem is going to persist for those who can't figure
out stress. That's just going to happen, and if you want to learn how
to use the alphabet the way it was created, granted there are some
issues, but I find those are in a lack of letters, not in an
overabundance.

I could be wrong, I could be crazy. You pick.
--Star


=========
"Better wizards than you have lost buttocks, you know!"
--Alastor 'Mad-Eye' Moody

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

__________________________________________________
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Hi yahya,

Here is Shavian 38 in its sequence and letter names:

1. Ash
2. Age
3. Awe
4. Bib
5. Church
6. Dead
7. Echo (Egg)
8. Eat
9. Ado
10. Fee
11. Gag
12. Ha-ha
13. If
14. Ice
15. Judge
16. Kick
17. Loll
18. Mine
19. Nun
20. Hung
21. Ah
22. Oak
23. Book (Wool)
24. Out
25. Oil
26. Peep
27. Roar
28. So
29. Sure
30. Tot
31. They
32. Thigh
33. Ooze
34. Vow
35. Woe
36. Measure
37. Yea
38. Zoo

Hope this helps,

Carl (Shavian Enthusiast)
yahya_melb <yahya@...> wrote:
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Carl G. Easton" wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I've recently completed a Sub-set of Shavian I've named Shavian
38, because it uses 38 Letters, rather than the traditional 48
Letters. I've even came up with a sequence for the 38 letters, in a
fashion similiar to Unifon's sequence. The names of the letters are
the same as the traditional example names of Shavian letters with 2
exceptions. Instead of "egg", I use "echo" and instead of "wool", I
use "book". The reason for the change is that it better matches my
Utahn Dialect of English. I pronounce "egg" like "AYg" rather
than "Ehg" -- so I use "Echo" for this vowels name. And I
pronounce "wool" like "wOHl" rather "wUHl" -- so I use "Book" for
this vowels name.
>
> With Shavian 38, I use every phoneme that is found in my Utahn
Dialect of English. So I don't use "on" and "un". I use alot of
schwa's or "ado's". And of course I don't use the ligatures or
compound letters anymore.
>
> For any questions or comments or corrections,
> Give me a reply,

Hey Carl!

Which 38, and what are their names?

Regards,
Yahya






---------------------------------
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Hi Star,

Sorry for the Confusion. I should have told you guys, that I was making a sub-set of Shavian. Suitable to parallel the Deseret Alphabet, which has 38 Letters. However, I modified the Phoneme Assignment of the Deseret Alphabet to better suit, my Utahn Dialect of the English Language. Just like in Shavian; Deseret has three "ah" phonemes (ah, awe, on), and there is only two in Utahn (ah and awe). Also in the Deseret Alphabet there is no, "oil" phoneme. So, I reassigned the "on" letter as meaning "oil". And with Deseret there is no "ado" so I reassigned the "up" letter with "ado".

As for the rhotics, Utahn is a Rhotic Dialect. But since there is no Compound letters in Deseret, so I had to by default omit the ligatures. And in case you were wondering Star, I can write Fluently with all 48 Shavian letters, even if I don't precisely pronounce them all. Shavian 38 is a little pet project of mine for a possible Conlang I'll be inventing.

Best of Regards,

Carl

Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
Uh, Carl? I see an intrinsic issue with cutting down to 38 out of 48,
and that being that Shaw specifically said that there should be more
than 40 letters, if I recall correctly. Why not cut it down to 26
letters and... well, maybe not. But the point being that English is a
complex language, and paring down an alphabet seems like regression
back to the ill suited TO.

Most of the ones that you mentioned, while suited for you, are not
suited for others. I find myself using the rhotics because, as we all
learned when reading, a vowel + R combination makes a different sound
than a simple vowel, and it makes reading faster and easier at least
for me. The on/ah problem is going to persist for some, and not for
others, I think it's dependant on how varied your own vowel usage is,
and the up/ado problem is going to persist for those who can't figure
out stress. That's just going to happen, and if you want to learn how
to use the alphabet the way it was created, granted there are some
issues, but I find those are in a lack of letters, not in an
overabundance.

I could be wrong, I could be crazy. You pick.
--Star

=========
"Better wizards than you have lost buttocks, you know!"
--Alastor 'Mad-Eye' Moody

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

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Carl,



Remember “Cut Shavian”, an almost identical 38-letter subset brought to the
list’s attention in 2003?



1. peep
2. bib
3. tot
4. dead
5. kick
6. gag
7. fee
8. vow
9. thigh
10. they
11. so
12. zoo
13. sure
14. measure
15. church
16. judge
17. yea - yonder, piano, million
18. woe - suede, suite
19. hung - think, linger, thankyou
20. ha-ha
21. loll
22. roar - car, traitor, marry, fervour
23. mime
24. nun
25. if
26. eat - queasy, sillier, seemly
27. egg
28. age
29. ash
30. eye
31. ado - us, murmurous, among, girder, offal, utter
32. oak
33. wool
34. ooze - superfluous
35. out
36. oil
37. ah - on, psalm, hot, part, palmolive
38. awe - paw, wrought, core, call, hawthorn



Hugh B



_____

From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of carl easton
Sent: 26 August 2006 22:53
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Re: Shavian 38



Hi Star,



Sorry for the Confusion. I should have told you guys, that I was making a
sub-set of Shavian. Suitable to parallel the Deseret Alphabet, which has 38
Letters. However, I modified the Phoneme Assignment of the Deseret Alphabet
to better suit, my Utahn Dialect of the English Language. Just like in
Shavian; Deseret has three "ah" phonemes (ah, awe, on), and there is only
two in Utahn (ah and awe). Also in the Deseret Alphabet there is no, "oil"
phoneme. So, I reassigned the "on" letter as meaning "oil". And with
Deseret there is no "ado" so I reassigned the "up" letter with "ado".



As for the rhotics, Utahn is a Rhotic Dialect. But since there is no
Compound letters in Deseret, so I had to by default omit the ligatures. And
in case you were wondering Star, I can write Fluently with all 48 Shavian
letters, even if I don't precisely pronounce them all. Shavian 38 is a
little pet project of mine for a possible Conlang I'll be inventing.



Best of Regards,



Carl

Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

Uh, Carl? I see an intrinsic issue with cutting down to 38 out of 48,
and that being that Shaw specifically said that there should be more
than 40 letters, if I recall correctly. Why not cut it down to 26
letters and... well, maybe not. But the point being that English is a
complex language, and paring down an alphabet seems like regression
back to the ill suited TO.

Most of the ones that you mentioned, while suited for you, are not
suited for others. I find myself using the rhotics because, as we all
learned when reading, a vowel + R combination makes a different sound
than a simple vowel, and it makes reading faster and easier at least
for me. The on/ah problem is going to persist for some, and not for
others, I think it's dependant on how varied your own vowel usage is,
and the up/ado problem is going to persist for those who can't figure
out stress. That's just going to happen, and if you want to learn how
to use the alphabet the way it was created, granted there are some
issues, but I find those are in a lack of letters, not in an
overabundance.

I could be wrong, I could be crazy. You pick.
--Star

==========

"Better wizards than you have lost buttocks, you know!"
--Alastor 'Mad-Eye' Moody

http://www.livejour <http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad>
nal.com/users/wodentoad

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