Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

Hi circtf,

> Any of you using a Mac and could tell me where the fonts go

Not using a Mac but for OS-X use this:
http://www.myfonts.com/support/help_install_mac.html

> You checked the consonants page, right?

Yes, very good information!


Regards,
Brian

Hi Yayah
Thanks for the feedback and bit of personal history.
I am surprised that an early introduction to Phonetics,
in any way impinged in any way on their H.S. Reading ability.
French immersion Schools in Canada works better at teaching reading,
even when the English reading class is taught as a second Language.
The problem tends to show itself in their writing,
especially the spelling. Thank G-d we have spelling checkers now, and
no one is considered illiterate, when can't figure out when to
write "than" or "then".
It is amazing how well something can work with picked classes and
dedicated Graduate students, falls down when you give it to
the regular teachers don't know what the heck they are supposed to be
teaching.
Regards, Paul V.
P. S. I notice kids have no trouble figuring out Pitman messages.
They treat it as a game or a puzzle.
Adults get bogged down. As we get older our eyes get drawn to the
discrepensies, and we can't get past it.
_______________________________________________attached_____________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" <yahya@...> wrote:
> The ITA, as we knew it, was introduced into the teaching of reading
> in schools in Tasmania in, I believe, around 1957; my two cousins,
> younger than me by two & three years, were introduced to reading
> using the ITA when they started primary school. Two years later,
> they had to change to the standard English alphabet. As a
> consequence, most of the kids in their age group finished Grade 6
> unable to read, write and spell to a standard deemed acceptable to
> begin high school. Schools had to organise remedial reading skills
> classes for them, and the experiment was called off ... So, not to
> be cntentious, but I'm not convinced that the ITA was such a good
> thing. Perhaps the teachers were inadequately prepared to teach
> it?

My understanding of the impact that the ITA had when tested was that the
students learned to read faster and more proficiently with the ITA than
students reading TO. They were able to write stories about things that
interested them without worrying about the spelling, i.e. being
restricted to a small list of words whose spelling they had memorized.
However, the problem came when it was time to shift to TO. What they
had learned in ITA proved to be of little help in reading TO due to the
inherent problems of TO, which did not disappear just because they had
learned a _different_, albeit related, system initially. Reading the
equivalent of "tho" for a few months does not help you figure out
"though." I would imagine a rational six-year old would assume that the
three extra letters surely must have some effect on the pronunciation!
Who would guess that they have _no effect_ and serve no purpose other
than tradition and the cold, dead hand of the past come to plague the
present?

Regarding Paul's comment about confusing "then" and "than." These two
words are clearly distinguishable to me by their pronunciation. Is
there a dialect that pronounces both words the same? If not, I would
find it surprising that anyone has trouble distinguishing them any more
than they would have trouble distinguishing "man" from "men."

Paige

paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> Hi Yayah
> Thanks for the feedback and bit of personal history.
> I am surprised that an early introduction to Phonetics,
> in any way impinged in any way on their H.S. Reading ability.
> French immersion Schools in Canada works better at teaching reading,
> even when the English reading class is taught as a second Language.
> The problem tends to show itself in their writing,
> especially the spelling. Thank G-d we have spelling checkers now, and
> no one is considered illiterate, when can't figure out when to
> write "than" or "then".
> It is amazing how well something can work with picked classes and
> dedicated Graduate students, falls down when you give it to
> the regular teachers don't know what the heck they are supposed to be
> teaching.
> Regards, Paul V.
> P. S. I notice kids have no trouble figuring out Pitman messages.
> They treat it as a game or a puzzle.
> Adults get bogged down. As we get older our eyes get drawn to the
> discrepensies, and we can't get past it.
> _______________________________________________attached_____________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:shawalphabet%40yahoogroups.com>, "yahya_melb" <yahya@...> wrote:
> > The ITA, as we knew it, was introduced into the teaching of reading
> > in schools in Tasmania in, I believe, around 1957; my two cousins,
> > younger than me by two & three years, were introduced to reading
> > using the ITA when they started primary school. Two years later,
> > they had to change to the standard English alphabet. As a
> > consequence, most of the kids in their age group finished Grade 6
> > unable to read, write and spell to a standard deemed acceptable to
> > begin high school. Schools had to organise remedial reading skills
> > classes for them, and the experiment was called off ... So, not to
> > be cntentious, but I'm not convinced that the ITA was such a good
> > thing. Perhaps the teachers were inadequately prepared to teach
> > it?
>
>

Good thing too. With some phonetic self training I was able to
write Shavian fluently in a week. Perhaps if it took less than four
years to learn reading and writing phonetics might be fitted in
somehow.
Since T.O. is mostly the writing system for English's closest
realative (which it evolved from) and many of the conventions present
in it were introduced by Dutch printers and French scribes a change is
needed.
Besides, Shavian is better.
did thee maeker ov this sistum rilee meen for it tù com tù this?

Indeed, much of North America pronounce them the same way. I assume
that "than" was the first to change, since it's not a long trip from A to e. Then with the
pin-pen merger, both vowels may become i.
It's rare for me to meet someone in person who actually knows there's a
difference at all.

In context I distinguish them primarily by stress: "then" is stressed
while "than" is not, and the latter consequently has a schwa as Han, while the former remains Hen.
But on their own I clearly say Hen and HAn, which is also how I spell them.



Regards,

Joseph Spicer

JOsaf spFsD



pgabhart wrote:





Regarding Paul's comment about confusing "then" and "than."  These
two
words are clearly distinguishable to me by their pronunciation.  Is
there a dialect that pronounces both words the same?  If not, I would
find it surprising that anyone has trouble distinguishing them any more
than they would have trouble distinguishing "man" from "men."



Paige

I agree with you that "than" in an unstressed position tends toward a
schwa. The Merriam-Webster online dictionary lists the vowel as a
schwa or a short-a. It does not list a short-i as an acceptable
pronunciation. On the other hand, "then" is listed with a short-e vowel
with no alternative. People who have the pin-pen merger would tend to
pronounce the short-e as a short-i, but that peculiarity of dialect does
not affect the pronunciation of "than." I should note that that I have
the pin-pen merger in my dialect. Now that I have become aware of it, I
have been attempting to root out, but I find it a stubborn weed. Even
though my natural tendency is to pronounce "then" with a short-i vowel,
I still spell it in QS with a short-e vowel in recognition of the fact
that that is the standard pronunciation. And I certainly distinguish
between the two words in my pronunciation despite the pin-pen merger.

Regarding your comment that you rarely meet someone who knows there is a
difference: I was not sure whether you meant they don't know there is a
difference in meaning between the two words, or they make no distinction
in pronunciation. If you meant the latter, Merriam-Webster does not
list a common pronunciation for the two words, so your suggestion that
"much of North America pronounces them the same way" seems unlikely to
me. If you meant the former, I have to wonder how often the topic comes
up, i.e. do you really have much data to support your supposition. I
have occasionally seen people mistake the two words in writing, but I
cannot ever remember questioning anyone whether they know they are two
different words. This makes the validity of your investigation seem
questionable to me unless you interrogate your friends and acquaintances
more than I, or most people, do about the vagaries of their pronunciation.

Perhaps those of us who care about these sorts of things are more
attuned to the manner in which people talk, but it seems to me that the
general level of speech and the ability to write has declined...or maybe
I am just becoming an old curmudgeon.

Paige

Joseph Spicer wrote:
>
> Indeed, much of North America pronounce them the same way. I assume
> that "than" was the first to change, since it's not a long trip from A
> to e. Then with the pin-pen merger, both vowels may become i. It's
> rare for me to meet someone in person who actually knows there's a
> difference at all.
> In context I distinguish them primarily by stress: "then" is stressed
> while "than" is not, and the latter consequently has a schwa as Han,
> while the former remains Hen. But on their own I clearly say Hen and
> HAn, which is also how I spell them.
>
> Regards,
> Joseph Spicer
> JOsaf spFsD
>
> pgabhart wrote:
>
>> Regarding Paul's comment about confusing "then" and "than." These
>> two words are clearly distinguishable to me by their pronunciation.
>> Is there a dialect that pronounces both words the same? If not, I
>> would find it surprising that anyone has trouble distinguishing them
>> any more than they would have trouble distinguishing "man" from "men."
>>
>> Paige
>>
>

helO grMp,

hC iz anaTx trAnzlitarESen.

************
fram: /iNgliS fXI n aTx fOlk tElz
bF /edwin sidnI hRtlAnd [1890]

/JAk H JFent-kilx

pRt 1

in H rEn v /kiN /RTx, HX livd in H kantrI v /kPnwYl, nC H /lAnd'z /end
v /iNlAnd a welTI fRmx hO hAd wan sun kYld /JAk. hI waz brisk n v a
redI lFvlI wit, sO HAt watevx hI kUd not pxfPm bF fPs n streNkT hI
kamplIted bF inJInjus wit n polisI. nevx waz enI pxsen hxd v HAt kUd
wxst him, n hI vXI often Iven bAfld H lxnd bF hiz SRp n redI inventSen.

in HOz dEz H /mQnt v /kPnwYl waz kept bF a hVJ n monstras JFent v
EtIn fIt in hFt, n abQt HrI jRdz in kampas, v a fCs n grim lontenAnts,
H tXx v Yl H nEbxiN tQnz n viliJez. hI livd in a lEv in H midst v H /mQnt,
n wUd not sufx enI wan els t liv nC him. hiz fMd waz aTx men'z kAtl,
wic often bikEm hiz prE, f wensOevx hI wYnted fMd hI wUd wEd Ovx t H mEn-
lAnd, wX hI wUd fxniS himself wiT watevx kEm hiz wE. H gUd fOk, At hiz
aprOc, fPsUk HX hAbitESenz, wFl hI sIzd on HX kAtl, mEkiN naTiN v kXIiN
hAf-a-dazen oksen on hiz bAk At a tFm; n Az f HX SIp n hogz, hI wUd tF
Hem rQnd hiz wEst lik a bunc v bAndOlCz. His kPs hI hAd folOd f menI
jCz, sO HAt Yl /kPnwYl waz impovriSd bF hiz depradESenz.

wan dE /JAk, hApend t bI prezent At H tQn hYl wen H mAJastrEtz wx sitiN in
kQnsal abQt H JFAnt, Askd wat riwPd wUd bI givin t H pxsan hO distrqd him
H JFAnt'z treZx, HE sed, waz H rekampents. kwOT /JAk, "Hen let mI
undxtEk it."

************
bitmAp:
http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jack1ga2.png

************

regRdz,
/brFAn /AlJxI
http://shavian.metabright.com/

************
pRt 2

sO hI fxniSd himself wiT a hPn, Savl, n pikAks, n went Ovx t H /mQnt
in H biginiN v a dRk wintx'z IvniN, wen hI fel t wPk, n bifP mPniN hAd
dug a pit twentI-tM fIt dIp, n nClI Az brod, kavxiN it Ovx wiT loN
stiks n strY. Hen strMiN a litl mOld upon it, it apCd lFk plEn grQnd.
His kamplIted, /JAk plEsd himself on H kontrXI sFd v H pit, fRTest
fram H JFAnt'z loJiN, n, Just At H brEk v dE, hI put H hPn t hiz mQT,
n blM, tAntivI, tAntivI. His unekspekted nqz arQzd H JFAnt, hO ruSd
fram hiz kEv, krFiN: "V inkPiJabl vilAn, R V kam hC t distxb mF rest?
V SAl pE dClI f His. sAtisfAkSen F wil hAv, n His it SAl bI, F wil tEk
V hOl n brql V f brekfAst," wic hI hAd nO sMnx utxd, HAn tumbliN intM
H pit, hI mEd H vXI fQndESenz v H /mQnt t SEk. "O, JFAnt," kwOT /JAk,
"wX R V nQ? O fET, V R goten nQ intM /lob'z /pond, wX F wil SxlI plEg
V f jx HretniN wxdz: wat dM V Hink nQ v brqliN mI f jx brekfAst? wil
nO aTx dFet sxv V but pUr /JAk?" Hus hAviN tAntalFsd H JFAnt f a wFl,
hI gEv him a mOst wEtI nok wiT hiz pikAks on H vXI krQn v hiz hed, n
kild him on H spot.

His dan, /JAk fild up H pit wiT xT, n went t sxc H kEv, wic hI fQnd
kantEnd muc treZx. wen H mEJastrEtz hxd v His, HE mEd a deklarESen hI
SUd hensfPT bI txmd /JAk H /JFAnt-kilx, n prizented him wiT a sPd n An
embrqdxd belt, on wic wx writen HIz wxdz in letxz v gOld --

"hC'z H rFt vAljent /kPniS mAn,
hO slM H JFAnt /kPmIlIAn."

H nMz v /JAk'z viktPI sMn spred Ovx Yl H /west v /iNlAnd, sO HAt anaTx
JFAnt, nEmd /blundxbP, hCiN v it, vQd t bI rivenJd on H litl hCO, if
evx it waz his fPcen t lFt on him. His JFAnt waz H lPd v An encAnted
kAsl sicawEted in H midst v a lOnsam wUd. nQ /JAk, abQt fP manTs
Aftxwxdz, wYlkiN nC His wUd in hiz JxnI t /wElz, bIiN wCI, sIted
himself nC a plesent fQntAn n fel aslIp. wFl hI waz inJqiN his ripOz,
H JFAnt, kamiN f wYtx, HX diskavxd him, n nM him t bI H fR-fEmd JAk,
bF H lFnz writen on H belt. wiTQt adM, hI tUk /JAk on hiz SOldxz n
kXId him tPd hiz kAsl. nQ, Az HE pAsd HrM a Tiket, H rusliN v H bQz
awEkend /JAk, hO waz strEnJlI suprizd t find himself in H klutcez v H
JFAnt. hiz tXx waz not jet bigun, f on entxiN H kAsl, hI sY H grQnd
strMd wiT hVmAn bOnz, H JFAnt teliN him hiz On wUd x loN inkrIs
Hem. Aftx His H JFAnt lokd pUr /JAk in An imens cEmbx, lIviN him HX
wFl hI went t fec anaTx JFAnt liviN in H sEm wUd t SX in /JAk's
distrukSen. wFl hI waz gon, dredfUl SrIks n lAmentESenz afrFted /JAk,
ispeSlI a vqs wic kantinVlI krFd --

"dM wat V kAn t get awE,
P V'l bikam H JFAnt'z prE;
hI'z gon t fec hiz braHx, hM
wil kil, lFkwFz divQx V tM."

************
bitmAp -- pRtz 1 n 2:
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jack2qc6.png

************

regRdz,
/brFAn /AlJxI
http://shavian.metabright.com/

The following are some reference notes I made to get a shaw font
working with Gnu Emacs. I'll post these here for anyone else who
is interested.

If using unix/linux you will need to convert the font, I posted
instructions for this on a previous post using open-source tools.

**********************************************************************

Some notes for using a shaw font with Gnu Emacs - terse


First:
======

In your home directory add to the .emacs file:

For Windows the _emacs file:

(make-face 'shaw)
(set-face-font 'shaw "-*-shaw sans no. 2-*-*-*-*-*-140-*-*-*-*-*")

For Unix/Linux the .emacs file:


(make-face 'shaw)
(set-face-font 'shaw "-*-ShawSansNo2-*-*-*-*-*-140-*-*-*-*-*")

Next: Add the shaw tag to the enriched-text mode.
=====

Hack the file: lisp/enriched.el

1. Add to the function enriched-translation in the face section.

(shaw "shaw")

2. Then recompile with:

M-x byte-compile-file


To use:
=======

For Gnu Emacs 21 you can switch to the shaw face with:

M-m M-g o shaw

Or create a macro/global-key to do this with one keystroke.

You can switch back to the default roman face with:

M-m M-g d

For the beta Gnu Emacs 22 or 23 use:

M-o shaw

To save in enriched mode:
When prompted to make newlines between paragraphs hard, answer yes.

Overwrite the file:

M-x enriched-mode C-x C-s

New file:

M-x enriched-mode C-x C-w <file.txt>


To convert the file back to straight text, will strip out the enriched
tags and the hard newlines.

M-x format-write-file <file.txt>

**********************************************************************

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, long-time
--- (and in my opinion always sensible) contributor
--- pgabhart wrote:

>" I should note that that I have the pin-pen merger in my
> dialect. Now that I have become aware of it, I have been
> attempting to root (it) out, but I find it a stubborn weed."

The test is whether you distinguish, on a regular basis,
without conscious effort, between the vowels of "thin"
and "then".

But do not be too overly alarmed. According to Wlliam
Labov of the University of Pennsylvania, whose speciality
has long been American accents, and as reported in
William MacNeil's "Do You Speak American?", a sequel of
sorts to his earlier "The Story of English" the pin/pen
merger, or to be be more exact, an i/e merger before
nasals, is spreading, perhaps unnoticed, throughout the
United States, and may in fact already be the majority
pronunciation. Moreover, the speech area from whence
it originated, the Inland South, again as reported in the
book mentioned above, may well become, in time, the
new Standard American, as surveys reveal that, while it
is not the preferred speech-form to be learned by
aspiring television anchors, is the speech-form most
used, admired, or imitated by "ordinary" people with
ordinary jobs. Perhaps one could say a parallel
development to the growth of Estuary English in
England, undermining RP.

This particular accent, or dialect, whichever definition
one prefers, is the speech of Bill Clinton, the recent
Oscar-winner George Clooney, and aspiring Presidential
candidate Bill Frist, currently Senate majority leader, and
therefore bi-partison in scope. It also reflects the growing
political clout of the southern states, whose assent
apparently is now needed for any policy changes the
United States may desire to undertake (or president it elects).
The so-called sun-belt states continue to grow in both wealth
and population as opposed to the midwest, the home-base
of the so-called General American accent, and this growth
will necessarily result in cultural changes, whether one
approves or not. I hope this does not upset you too much,
but change seldom does.

with regards,
dshep