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Just some thoughts.

I guess it all depends on if the text is understandable.

Just like with Carl's Shavian 38 where no abbreviations are
used. The words are still understandable. Like for the word
"the" represented as Ha in Shavian 38 or H in Shavian.
Everyone knows that the symbols represent the word "the".
The text is understandable. I think you have to accept different
representations with a phonetic alphabet.

With the different spellings of Shavian. Everyone knows what
the symbols represent - "shavian"

Regards,
Brian

Sorry - yes, you're right. As long as there are multiple possible
pronunciations for different words, there will be spelling variations in
Shavian. The reason why I advocate the AHD as a guide to spelling Shavian is
because not only does its pronunciation guide match the Shavian phoneme set,
it does list the most common variations (e.g. lieutenant as
'lootenant'/'leftenant'), so you can choose that which best suits your
dialect.



I don't use Ian because I see it as a ligature of "if" + "ado", whereas I
believe most people these days say "eat" + "ado". I'm probably alone on
this, but I don't believe it should be appropriated for a sound it doesn't
represent out of convenience.



Hugh B



_____

From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Brian Algeri
Sent: 03 October 2006 15:01
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: Pronunciation and spelling of "Shavian"



Hi Hugh,



I mean that words in general (not the Shavian word) between dictionaries

can and do have different and even multiple pronunciations per word.



Even SEvWn is represented differently as you spell it without the "ian"

like SEvIan. Where I would spell it with the "ian"





Regards,

Brian

hF /hV
TANks f H hedz up.
F nevD rEalFzd HAt it wuz prOnQnst GSEvIan.
F Vst t gO wiT /SYvIan
lUkiN At hiz piktxz, hM wUd ges?
hI YlwEz lUkt lFk hI nIdad a SEv, nyt HAt hI wuz wun.
wQ, SY iz a SEv-Ian.
enIwE, kidiN asFd, F wil endevD t vz H kDekt pranQnsIESun
frum nQ yn.
rigRdz, /pYl /vI.
______________________________atAct____________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@...> wrote:
> I too have seen it written with various different vowels, but
there's only
> one correct pronunciation: GSEvIan. The confusion over the
pronunciation of
> the 'a' perfectly highlights the inadequacies of the Roman
alphabet.

hF /kyral
F sapOz HAt it iz trM HAt HX R nO raqwFDments
t Vz Ivan H kYman 5
abrIvIESunz, & it iz YlsO trM HAt
abrIvIESunz R mP Vsfal in a SPthAnd,
P kDsiv SEvIan, AZ apOzd t H printad SEvIan
HAt wI R diskusiN, His kwestjan in.
stil, Yl in Yl, F lFk t Vz abrIvIESanz
& H SY R-sQnd vQwal letxz.

if enIwun fFndz H mikstjD v bOT abrIvIEtad
& unabrIvIEtad fPmz kynfVziN, let mI nO,
& F wil rIvizit His kwestjan.

rigRdz, pYl /vI.
____________________atAct_____________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@>
> wrote:
> > Ha rIzan HAt F dOnt jMz Ha abrIvIESanz wiT SyvIan 38 iz HAt F
> fFnd Ham bI an anneseserI SOrthAnd. F fil OnlI SOrthAnd SUd jMz
> abrIvIESanz. wer Az SyvIan iz a lyNhAnd sistam. its Just a
> prefrans yn mF pyrt HO. Fm Sar HAt Her yr ybJektiv rIzanz fOr
jMziN
> Ham.
>

Brian Algeri wrote:
> I have seen Shavian represented as SyvWn, SYvWn and SEvWn.
> Plus I am sure there are move variations that people use. This
> is one problem with a phonetic alphabet. Everyone pronounces
> differently so you have multiple representations for a single word.
> Even different dictionaries have different pronunciations.
>
> Regards,
> Brian
Did anyone besides Brian get my original post on this? I didn't get it
myself, but obviously Brian did, since he responded.

What I wondered was, do people pronounce Shavian different ways because
of confusion between the words Shaw and Shavian, and the fact that the
letter A has no standard pronunciation? And shouldn't we be able to
agree to pronounce (and thus spell) the word in at least a similar way?
I understand how some people might spell it with or without the "Ian",
that's not a bother to me. But the difference between SYvWn n SEvWn is
rather pronounced. Also, while the letter A has no standard
pronunciation, it is rare, if not unheard of, for an isolated A to be
pronounced as AW or AU. Of course, feel free to post examples if you
know of any.

Ethan

On 10/4/06, Ethan Lamoreaux <ethanl@...> wrote:
>
> while the letter A has no standard pronunciation, it is rare, if not unheard of, for an isolated A to be pronounced as AW or AU. Of course, feel free to post examples if you know of any.

The one that came to mind immediately was "water". And "was", for that
matter, has short-O for me, but likely has AH or AW for people who
have no separate short-O phoneme.

Also, L following the A can often change the sound to AW, as in also
(AW), alter (short-O), always, already, walk, talk (all AW).

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

hF /pyl,

Az V mFt nOtis F Am nQ VziN stAndDd SEvIan. Fm v kPs flMent wiT bOT stAndDd SEvIan n SEvIan 38 (wic iz mP P les 'kat SEvIan'). its strENJ HO wen F Vz stAndDd SEvIan bIkuz F fFnd a wE t Vz Yl v letDz, Ivan HO F dOnt prOnQns Hem Yl. wen F rFt wiT stAndDd SEvIan, F hAv nO pryblam wiT abrIvIESanz n aHD kanvenSanz. HE OnlI get in H wE wen F Vz SEvIan 38/kat SEvIan. Fm kamfxtabal wiT Yl fPmz v SEvIan, n Fm nQ bIginiN t spel/prOnQns it Az "SEvIan" rAHD HAn H wE F hAd prOnQnst it fP jCz, (Az SyvIan). sO in aHD wxdz, Fm Just Az PTOdyks wiT SEvIan Az H nekst SEvIan enTMzIast, eksept v kPs wen it kUmz t H hXetikal SEvIan 38.

pI.es. Just t bild mF kynfidens wUd samwan giv a list v H fynt kOdz n wat HE reprIsent. espeSallI sins Fm detDmind t mOstlI Vz stAndDd SEvIan hC wiT His fFn grMp yn mF fEvPit rFtiN sistam.

best v rIgRdz,

/kRal (SEvIan enTMzIast)

paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
hF /kyral
F sapOz HAt it iz trM HAt HX R nO raqwFDments
t Vz Ivan kYman
abrIvIESunz, & it iz YlsO trM HAt
abrIvIESunz R mP Vsfal in a SPthAnd,
P kDsiv SEvIan, AZ apOzd t H printad SEvIan
HAt wI R diskusiN, His kwestjan in.
stil, Yl in Yl, F lFk t Vz abrIvIESanz
& H SY R-sQnd vQwal letxz.

if enIwun fFndz H mikstD v bOT abrIvIEtad
& unabrIvIEtad fPms kynfVziN, let mI nO,
& F wil rIvisit His kwestjan.

rigRdz, pYl /vI.
____________________atAct_____________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@...>
wrote:
> Ha rIzan HAt F dOnt jMz Ha abrIvIESanz wiT SyvIan 38 iz HAt F
fFnd Ham bI an anneseserI SOrthAnd. F fil OnlI SOrthAnd SUd jMz
abrIvIESanz. wer Az SyvIan iz a lyNhAnd sistam. its Just a
prefrans yn mF pyrt HO. Fm Sar HAt Her yr ybJektiv rIzanz fOr jMziN
Ham.






---------------------------------
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hF /kRal
F am glAd t sI HAt V R flMant in bOT /SEvIan 38
& H mP PTOdyks /SEvIan.
F dOnt nO if wI kAn sE wI hAv a stAndxd SEvIan, At His pqnt
in /iNgliS histPI,
bakuz wI aksept a numbD v difDent /iNgliS prOnunsIESunz
Az vAlid,
& HE SO up Az a numbD v difDent /SEvIan speliNz f H sEm wxd.
H mOst V kAn sE iz wI hAv a stAndxd wE v rFtiN H sQndz v /iNgliS.
& v kPs wI hAv a stAndxd kI-bPd mApiN fP HOz letxz HAt reprazent
Yl H sQndz v /iNgliS.
hC HE R:
fxst, H wunz wX H kI-bPd mApiN mEk a lyt v sens.
a => Ado,
A => Ash,
b => Bib,
c => Church,
d => Dead,
f => Foe,
e => Egg(Echo),
g => Gag,
h => Ha-ha,
i => If,
J => Judge,
k => Kick,
l => Loll,
m => Mime,
n => Nun,
N => Hung(Ing)
O => Oak,
p => Peep,
r => Roar,
s => So,
S => Sure,
t => Tot,
T => Thigh,
u => Up,
v => Vow,
w => Woe,
z => Zoo,

sekund, H wunz V hAv t memarFz
j => Yea,
q => Oil,
x => Err(Urge),
y => Ah,

C => Ear,
D => Array(er),
E => Age,
F => Ice,
H => They,
I => Eat,
M => Ooze,
P => Or,
Q => Out,
R => Are.
X => Air,
U => Wool,
V => Yew,
Y => Awe,
Z => Measure(Genre),

Txd, H wunz I dOnt Vz mFself, bakuz v mF /AmXikun Aksent.
o => On,
W => Ian,
fPT, H wunz F fDgyt. plIz let mI nO if F Omitad a /SY letD,
P mEd a mistEk?

rigRdz, /pYl /vI.
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@...>
wrote:
> Az V mFt nOtis F Am nQ VziN stAndDd SEvIan.
> Fm v kPs flMent wiT bOT stAndDd SEvIan n SEvIan 38 (wic iz mP P
les 'kat SEvIan'). its strENJ HO wen F Vz stAndDd SEvIan bIkuz F
fFnd a wE t Vz Yl v letDz, Ivan HO F dOnt prOnQns Hem Yl. wen F rFt
wiT stAndDd SEvIan, F hAv nO pryblam wiT abrIvIESanz n aHD
kanvenSanz. HE OnlI get in H wE wen F Vz SEvIan 38/kat SEvIan. Fm
kamfxtabal wiT Yl fPmz v SEvIan, n Fm nQ bIginiN t spel/prOnQns it
Az "SEvIan" rAHD HAn H wE F hAd prOnQnst it fP jCz, (Az SyvIan). sO
in aHD wxdz, Fm Just Az PTOdyks wiT SEvIan Az H nekst SEvIan
enTMzIast, eksept v kPs wen it kUmz t H hXetikal SEvIan 38.

Just t bild mF kynfidens wUd samwan giv a list v H fynt kOdz n wat
HE reprIsent.
espeSallI sins Fm detDmind t mOstlI Vz stAndDd SEvIan hC wiT His fFn
grMp yn mF fEvPit rFtiN sistam.
kRal

Ethan, regarding not receiving your own posts through the group: I've
recently noticed this too. Has anyone else noticed it?



If it's not just you and me, perhaps Yahoo have changed their system. I can
see it becoming quite annoying when reading back through previous
conversations, not knowing what part you played in them.



Hugh B



_____

From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Ethan Lamoreaux
Sent: 04 October 2006 07:57
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Re: Pronunciation and spelling of "Shavian"



Brian Algeri wrote:

I have seen Shavian represented as SyvWn, SYvWn and SEvWn.

Plus I am sure there are move variations that people use. This

is one problem with a phonetic alphabet. Everyone pronounces

differently so you have multiple representations for a single word.

Even different dictionaries have different pronunciations.



Regards,

Brian

Did anyone besides Brian get my original post on this? I didn't get it
myself, but obviously Brian did, since he responded.

What I wondered was, do people pronounce Shavian different ways because of
confusion between the words Shaw and Shavian, and the fact that the letter A
has no standard pronunciation? And shouldn't we be able to agree to
pronounce (and thus spell) the word in at least a similar way? I understand
how some people might spell it with or without the "Ian", that's not a
bother to me. But the difference between SYvWn n SEvWn is rather
pronounced. Also, while the letter A has no standard pronunciation, it is
rare, if not unheard of, for an isolated A to be pronounced as AW or AU. Of
course, feel free to post examples if you know of any.

Ethan

hF /pyl,

TENks fP H list. V mEd nO mistEks; F kQntad 48 letDz wic iz kPekt. wat F ment bF stAndxd SEvIan iz VziN Yl 48 letDz Az best Az wan kAn alyN wiT Yl H kanvenSanz lFk H abrIvIESanz n nEmIN mRk.

Fal rFt mP lEtD,

best v rIgRdz,

/kRal (SEvIan enTMzIast)

paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
hF /kRal
F am glAd t sI HAt V R flMant in bOT /SEvIan 38
& H mP PTOdyks /SEvIan.
F dOnt nO if wI kAn sE wI hAv a stAndxd SEvIan, At His pqnt
in /iNgliS histPI,
bakuz wI aksept a numbD v difDent /iNgliS prOnunsIESunz
Az vAlid,
& HE SO up Az a numbD v difDent /SEvIan speliNz f H sEm wxd.
H mOst V kAn sE iz wI hAv a stAndxd wE v rFtiN H sQndz v /iNgliS.
& v kPs wI hAv a stAndxd kI-bPd mApiN fP HOz letxz HAt reprazent
Yl H sQndz v /iNgliS.
hC HE R:
fxst, H wunz wX H kI-bPd mApiN mEk a lyt v sens.
a => Ado,
A => Ash,
b => Bib,
c => Church,
d => Dead,
f => Foe,
e => Egg(Echo),
g => Gag,
h => Ha-ha,
i => If,
J => Judge,
k => Kick,
l => Loll,
m => Mime,
n => Nun,
N => Hung(Ing)
O => Oak,
p => Peep,
r => Roar,
s => So,
S => Sure,
t => Tot,
T => Thigh,
u => Up,
v => Vow,
w => Woe,
z => Zoo,

sekund, H wunz V hAv t memarFz
j => Yea,
q => Oil,
x => Err(Urge),
y => Ah,

C => Ear,
D => Array(er),
E => Age,
F => Ice,
H => They,
I => Eat,
M => Ooze,
P => Or,
Q => Out,
R => Are.
X => Air,
U => Wool,
V => Yew,
Y => Awe,
Z => Measure(Genre),

Txd, H wunz I dOnt Vz mFself, bakuz v mF /AmXikun Aksent.
o => On,
W => Ian,
fPT, H wunz F fDgyt. plIz let mI nO if F Omitad a /SY letD,
P mEd a mistEk?

rigRdz, /pYl /vI.
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@...>
wrote:
> Az V mFt nOtis F Am nQ VziN stAndDd SEvIan.
> Fm v kPs flMent wiT bOT stAndDd SEvIan n SEvIan 38 (wic iz mP P
les 'kat SEvIan'). its strENJ HO wen F Vz stAndDd SEvIan bIkuz F
fFnd a wE t Vz Yl v letDz, Ivan HO F dOnt prOnQns Hem Yl. wen F rFt
wiT stAndDd SEvIan, F hAv nO pryblam wiT abrIvIESanz n aHD
kanvenSanz. HE OnlI get in H wE wen F Vz SEvIan 38/kat SEvIan. Fm
kamfxtabal wiT Yl fPmz v SEvIan, n Fm nQ bIginiN t spel/prOnQns it
Az "SEvIan" rAHD HAn H wE F hAd prOnQnst it fP jCz, (Az SyvIan). sO
in aHD wxdz, Fm Just Az PTOdyks wiT SEvIan Az H nekst SEvIan
enTMzIast, eksept v kPs wen it kUmz t H hXetikal SEvIan 38.

Just t bild mF kynfidens wUd samwan giv a list v H fynt kOdz n wat
HE reprIsent.
espeSallI sins Fm detDmind t mOstlI Vz stAndDd SEvIan hC wiT His fFn
grMp yn mF fEvPit rFtiN sistam.
kRal






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