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"it iz rIli veri frustrEtiN wen jM nO Yl H Anserz, but nObodi boHerz
t Ask jM H
kwesconz .............................................................
........ At lIst HAt iz wat mF grAndmY telz mI.

`
=====================
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
>
> hF /kristal
> mF pDsanAl upinyun, iz HAt H pIpal HAt hI felt
> respynsibal fP n hM hI rIct Qt t wD H pP sinxz
> n Qtkasts v H /JViS pIpal liviN in /izrAel.
> esenSylI, menI JVz in /IzrAel At HAt tFm hAd
> bakum eksklVdad frum PgAnIzd reliJan n nIdad help
> rIkOnektiN t /gYd. wut wiT H trubald pOlitakAl
> tFmz kulminEtiN in H destrukSun v H tempal,
> V kAn sI wF.
> ________________atAct_______________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "krstl quinn" <kris.quin@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > a kwescon abQt 4:
> >
> > ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI"
> >
> > hM wer HIz pIpel?
> >
> > -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
> In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, lin jansen <histnjeog@> wrote:
> > >
> > > in rIdiN /ITAn'z trAnsliterESon (liNks):
> > > F hAv a kwescon abQt Jenesis 4:
> > > hM iz referd t bF H wOrdz "evri won"???
> > >
> > > 4:14 bIhOld, HQ hAst drivan mI Qt His dE frum Hu fEs uv HI xT;
> And
> > frum HF fEs SAl F bI hid; And F SAl bI u fVJitiv And u vAgubynd
in
> HI
> > xT; And it SAl kum tM pAs, HAt evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI SAl slE mI.
> > >
> > > ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI" hM wer HIz pIpel?
> > > -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Get your own web address.
> > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
> > >
> >
>

Hi Ethan
Thanks for the information.
You do seem to have a few touches of Canadian
or quazee British pronunciation
in your speech.
I find that unless I am speaking very slowly and deliberately,
I tend to make a lot more use the Array (Better) sound.
In fact in my normal speaking voice, I say yer instead of your (jP).
Unless I was stressing the word "your", as in, "It's your problem";
when I would go back to pronouncing it (JP).
Sorry to trouble you.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan Lamoreaux <ethanl@...>
wrote:
>
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > > > Do you have any Idea of the relative proportions.
> > Is your use of Urge (stressed) relatively rare compared
> > to your use of the more ubiquitous Array?
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > P.S. I would guess that you say "pMD" instead of "pP" in
> > your Western American accent.
> >
> It's no trouble, really! That's what the list is here for.
>
> I've never paid much attention to the proportions of Urge vs.
Array (or
> Better, as I like to call it.) It seems like I type Better more
often,
> but Urge gets its fair share of use as well.
>
> As for the word Poor, I pronounce it to rime (if Coleridge could
do it,
> I can too!) with Boar and Bore, and the same as Pour: pP
(ð`ð`¹). I
> don't pronounce my words quite the same as westerners (not
southwestern,
> but say, Californian) do, but it's close. Mine is mostly
midwestern
> American, though I did grow up with some foreign influences; My
mom came
> from Florida, and her family came from New York, and I had
relatives who
> spoke Finnish a lot, though I doubt that had much influence. Also
I
> grew up listening to Canadian radio and TV (and a British uncle
who
> lives in Canada) as well as other Canadians from northern Ontario,
Sault
> Ste. Marie area.
>
> --
> Ethan
>
> He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt
thou trust --Psalm 91:4a
>

hF /meN
F luv t Ask kwesconz, Az wel t Az AnsDiN Hem
wwn F kAn.
fD eksAmpal, wX did V lxn t spIk /iNgliS sO wel?
V sIm t hAv hAd H benafits v a /britiS edVkESun.
rigRdz, /pYl /vI.
/pI. /es. kyngracMlESunz t yD grAndmY f tIciN V
a TiN P tM.
__________________atAct____________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "meN makOtO" <ljptbgx@...>
wrote:
>
> "it iz rIli veri frustrEtiN wen jM nO Yl H Anserz, but nObodi
boHerz
> t Ask jM H
> kwesconz
> At lIst HAt iz wat mF grAndmY telz mI
> ====++++++++++++=====================
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink11@> wrote:
> >
> > hF /kristal
> > mF pDsanAl upinyun, iz HAt H pIpal HAt hI felt
> > respynsibal fP n hM hI rIct Qt t wD H pP sinxz
> > n Qtkasts v H /JViS pIpal liviN in /izrAel.
> > esenSylI, menI JVz in /IzrAel At HAt tFm hAd
> > bakum eksklVdad frum PgAnIzd reliJan n nIdad help
> > rIkOnektiN t /gYd. wut wiT H trubald pOlitakAl
> > tFmz kulminEtiN in H destrukSun v H tempal,
> > V kAn sI wF.
> > ________________atAct_______________________
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "krstl quinn" <kris.quin@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > a kwescon abQt 4:
> > >
> > > ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI"
> > >
> > > hM wer HIz pIpel?
> > >
> > > -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
> > In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, lin jansen <histnjeog@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > in rIdiN /ITAn'z trAnsliterESon (liNks):
> > > > F hAv a kwescon abQt Jenesis 4:
> > > > hM iz referd t bF H wOrdz "evri won"???
> > > >
> > > > 4:14 bIhOld, HQ hAst drivan mI Qt His dE frum Hu fEs uv HI
xT;
> > And
> > > frum HF fEs SAl F bI hid; And F SAl bI u fVJitiv And u
vAgubynd
> in
> > HI
> > > xT; And it SAl kum tM pAs, HAt evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI SAl slE
mI.
> > > >
> > > > ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI" hM wer HIz pIpel?
> > > > -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Get your own web address.
> > > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

t /lFonel wiH afekSon:

a kAni juN fiSer nEmd /fiSer wuns fiSd on H eJ v a fiSur. a fiS wiH a grin puld H fiSermAn in--nQ Her fiSiN H fiSur* fOr /fiSer`.
* fissure ` fischer. __________________k.g.


---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- "paul vandenbrink" wrote:
--- (concerning the sounds and stress patterns of
--- SEARCHing for THIRsty PURple TURtles")

> First the stress for me is not always on the first syllable.
> I would say, ser-CHING for thur-a-STY per-pal tur-tals.

That's interesting. I don't believe I've ever met anyone who gave the
second syllable of those words more emphasis than the first.

The Oxford Canadian Dictionary indicates that stress is applied to the
first syllable. Are you sure you pronounce it serCHING?

Incidentally, this dictionary further also indicates in its
pronunciation
key the existence of what must be the short-o in words of the "what/pot"
group, as it uses the reverse (backwards) script-a, just like its
parent,
the OED, to indicate the sound of the vowel in these words, and thus
differentiates between the vowel of "arm", indicated by the normal
script-a of "arm".

Moreover, this same pronunciation guide displays two different "eye"
vowels: namely, \ai\ with the key word "my", and \@i\ with the key
word "pipe" (@ = the schwa). Could you comment on this?

> Both "pur" and "tur" seem to be insufficiently stressed to give them
> the primary stress in my accent.

Well, stress is not all one thing or the other. There are shades of
emphasis.
In the test sentence above I probably would not give the first
syllables of
"purple" and "turtle" as much stress as that of "searching", but
still a good
more than the final syllables. Something like this: SEARCHing for
THIRsty
PURple TURtles (SEARCH should be in bold). It seems to me that the
second syllable of both words fade away, and are not nearly as distinct
as the first. This is in keeping with traditional English sentence
tone pattern
in which the beginning of any statement tends to be overloaded while the
remainder diminishes in force, in some people's speech ending in a
mumble.

However, I note that your Canadian dictionary does appear to indicate a
more even stress level.

> And certainly not the accentuated and longer sound that I associate
> with Err/Urge.

I think this because "err/urge " are one-syllable words, which
necessarily
receive more emphasis than a similar sound contained in a two-syllable
word.

> Perhaps you have a better example word.

A good test word I think is "murmur", or as I would say it, "MU(R)m@
(r)".
Other examples, which display both one- and two-syllable varieties, are
merge/merger; work/worker; search/searcher; stir/stirrer; bird/birder.
I believe birder is now an accepted word for bird-watcher.

The Oxford Canadian, as well as the Oxford American, use the same
vowel symbol in "murmur", but with an indication of initial stress, as
follows: \'m@rm@r\

> You don't use the normal convention?

No.

> Are you into the Read Alphabet?

By this I guess you must mean Read's third alphabet, in which he
reverted
in part back to standard letters. I find it interesting because its
existence
could perhaps reveal some frustration on Read's part, perhaps having
to do
with problems encountered, or other personal dissatisfaction with his
Shavian
and Qwikskript (sp?) alphabets. While I am a great admirer of Read's
graphic
forms, it has to be admitted that they are no more easier to write
than standard
letters, and perhaps Read came to feel that way too. What else would
be the
reason for his three attempts to get it right (or were they just
alternatives?).

wondringly,
dshep

in respons t H kwescon v elementari edjMkESon v /meN: sI fFl 927meN
in fOlder 900-999.
___________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
>
> hF /meN
> F luv t Ask kwesconz, Az wel t Az AnsDiN Hem
> wwn F kAn.
> fD eksAmpal, wX did V lxn t spIk /iNgliS sO wel?
> V sIm t hAv hAd H benafits v a /britiS edVkESun.
> rigRdz, /pYl /vI.
> /pI. /es. kyngracMlESunz t yD grAndmY f tIciN V
> a TiN P tM.
> __________________atAct____________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "meN makOtO" <ljptbgx@>
> wrote:
> >
> > "it iz rIli veri frustrEtiN wen jM nO Yl H Anserz, but nObodi
> boHerz
> > t Ask jM H
> > kwesconz
> > At lIst HAt iz wat mF grAndmY telz mI
> > ====++++++++++++=====================
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
> > <pvandenbrink11@> wrote:
> > >
> > > hF /kristal
> > > mF pDsanAl upinyun, iz HAt H pIpal HAt hI felt
> > > respynsibal fP n hM hI rIct Qt t wD H pP sinxz
> > > n Qtkasts v H /JViS pIpal liviN in /izrAel.
> > > esenSylI, menI JVz in /IzrAel At HAt tFm hAd
> > > bakum eksklVdad frum PgAnIzd reliJan n nIdad help
> > > rIkOnektiN t /gYd. wut wiT H trubald pOlitakAl
> > > tFmz kulminEtiN in H destrukSun v H tempal,
> > > V kAn sI wF.
> > > ________________atAct_______________________
> > > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "krstl quinn" <kris.quin@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > a kwescon abQt 4:
> > > >
> > > > ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI"
> > > >
> > > > hM wer HIz pIpel?
> > > >
> > > > -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
> > > In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, lin jansen <histnjeog@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > in rIdiN /ITAn'z trAnsliterESon (liNks):
> > > > > F hAv a kwescon abQt Jenesis 4:
> > > > > hM iz referd t bF H wOrdz "evri won"???
> > > > >
> > > > > 4:14 bIhOld, HQ hAst drivan mI Qt His dE frum Hu fEs uv HI
> xT;
> > > And
> > > > frum HF fEs SAl F bI hid; And F SAl bI u fVJitiv And u
> vAgubynd
> > in
> > > HI
> > > > xT; And it SAl kum tM pAs, HAt evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI SAl slE
> mI.
> > > > >
> > > > > ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI" hM wer HIz pIpel?
> > > > > -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > Get your own web address.
> > > > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

900-999 = fFl fOlder 9.......927meN



--- In shawalphabet@...m, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
>
> hF /meN
> F luv t Ask kwesconz, Az wel t Az AnsDiN Hem
> wwn F kAn.
> fD eksAmpal, wX did V lxn t spIk /iNgliS sO wel?
> V sIm t hAv hAd H benafits v a /britiS edVkESun.
> rigRdz, /pYl /vI.
> /pI. /es. kyngracMlESunz t yD grAndmY f tIciN V
> a TiN P tM.
> __________________atAct____________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "meN makOtO" <ljptbgx@>
> wrote:
> >
> > "it iz rIli veri frustrEtiN wen jM nO Yl H Anserz, but nObodi
> boHerz
> > t Ask jM H
> > kwesconz
> > At lIst HAt iz wat mF grAndmY telz mI
> > ====++++++++++++=====================
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
> > <pvandenbrink11@> wrote:
> > >
> > > hF /kristal
> > > mF pDsanAl upinyun, iz HAt H pIpal HAt hI felt
> > > respynsibal fP n hM hI rIct Qt t wD H pP sinxz
> > > n Qtkasts v H /JViS pIpal liviN in /izrAel.
> > > esenSylI, menI JVz in /IzrAel At HAt tFm hAd
> > > bakum eksklVdad frum PgAnIzd reliJan n nIdad help
> > > rIkOnektiN t /gYd. wut wiT H trubald pOlitakAl
> > > tFmz kulminEtiN in H destrukSun v H tempal,
> > > V kAn sI wF.
> > > ________________atAct_______________________
> > > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "krstl quinn" <kris.quin@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > a kwescon abQt 4:
> > > >
> > > > ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI"
> > > >
> > > > hM wer HIz pIpel?
> > > >
> > > > -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
> > > In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, lin jansen <histnjeog@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > in rIdiN /ITAn'z trAnsliterESon (liNks):
> > > > > F hAv a kwescon abQt Jenesis 4:
> > > > > hM iz referd t bF H wOrdz "evri won"???
> > > > >
> > > > > 4:14 bIhOld, HQ hAst drivan mI Qt His dE frum Hu fEs uv HI
> xT;
> > > And
> > > > frum HF fEs SAl F bI hid; And F SAl bI u fVJitiv And u
> vAgubynd
> > in
> > > HI
> > > > xT; And it SAl kum tM pAs, HAt evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI SAl slE
> mI.
> > > > >
> > > > > ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI" hM wer HIz pIpel?
> > > > > -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > Get your own web address.
> > > > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi Dashep
Glad to hear from you.
First we have to realize that accent in English is fairly
fluid thing. If we want to give a word an ironic twist,
or make it into a question
we add a rising accent to the end. (ky-miN/co-MING?)
The rising accent trumps the regular pronunciation.
I feel more comfortable saying ser=ChING than SERCH=ing
but both are acceptable.
And as you say,
"Well, stress is not all one thing or the other. There are shades of
emphasis."

As for the fact that the Oxford Canadian dictionary indicates in its
> pronunciation
> key the existence of what must be the short-o in words of
the "what/pot", I would disregard this.
You have to see if that backward "a" symbol is ever in fact used in
any
common Canadian English words. In Canada, "what" is pronounced "wut".

In Ontario and Western Canada, where the majority of the English
Speakers live American pronunciation is beginning to pre-dominate.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. as to your last question about Kingsley Read, I expect that as
he made more and more use of each of the different versions of the
Alphabets, he attempted to refine the structure, to make it more
easy to use as a personal Shorthand.
Unfortunately as a result, his constant tinkering tends to weaken
the obvious benefits of his original Shavian Alphabet.
"The best is the enemy of the good."
_____________________________attached________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- "paul vandenbrink" wrote:
> --- (concerning the sounds and stress patterns of
> --- SEARCHing for THIRsty PURple TURtles")
>
> > First the stress for me is not always on the first syllable.
> > I would say, ser-CHING for thur-a-STY per-pal tur-tals.
>
> That's interesting. I don't believe I've ever met anyone who gave
the
> second syllable of those words more emphasis than the first.
>
> The Oxford Canadian Dictionary indicates that stress is applied to
the
> first syllable. Are you sure you pronounce it serCHING?
>
> Incidentally, this dictionary further also indicates in its
> pronunciation
> key the existence of what must be the short-o in words of
the "what/pot"
> group, as it uses the reverse (backwards) script-a, just like its
> parent,
> the OED, to indicate the sound of the vowel in these words, and
thus
> differentiates between the vowel of "arm", indicated by the normal
> script-a of "arm".
>
> Moreover, this same pronunciation guide displays two
different "eye"
> vowels: namely, \ai\ with the key word "my", and \@i\ with the key
> word "pipe" (@ = the schwa). Could you comment on this?
>
> > Both "pur" and "tur" seem to be insufficiently stressed to give
them
> > the primary stress in my accent.
>
> Well, stress is not all one thing or the other. There are shades
of
> emphasis.
> In the test sentence above I probably would not give the first
> syllables of
> "purple" and "turtle" as much stress as that of "searching", but
> still a good
> more than the final syllables. Something like this: SEARCHing for
> THIRsty
> PURple TURtles (SEARCH should be in bold). It seems to me that the
> second syllable of both words fade away, and are not nearly as
distinct
> as the first. This is in keeping with traditional English
sentence
> tone pattern
> in which the beginning of any statement tends to be overloaded
while the
> remainder diminishes in force, in some people's speech ending in
a
> mumble.
>
> However, I note that your Canadian dictionary does appear to
indicate a
> more even stress level.
>
> > And certainly not the accentuated and longer sound that I
associate
> > with Err/Urge.
>
> I think this because "err/urge " are one-syllable words, which
> necessarily
> receive more emphasis than a similar sound contained in a two-
syllable
> word.
>
> > Perhaps you have a better example word.
>
> A good test word I think is "murmur", or as I would say it, "MU(R)
m@
> (r)".
> Other examples, which display both one- and two-syllable
varieties, are
> merge/merger; work/worker; search/searcher; stir/stirrer;
bird/birder.
> I believe birder is now an accepted word for bird-watcher.
>
> The Oxford Canadian, as well as the Oxford American, use the same
> vowel symbol in "murmur", but with an indication of initial
stress, as
> follows: \'m@rm@r\
>
> > You don't use the normal convention?
>
> No.
>
> > Are you into the Read Alphabet?
>
> By this I guess you must mean Read's third alphabet, in which he
> reverted
> in part back to standard letters. I find it interesting because
its
> existence
> could perhaps reveal some frustration on Read's part, perhaps
having
> to do
> with problems encountered, or other personal dissatisfaction with
his
> Shavian
> and Qwikskript (sp?) alphabets. While I am a great admirer of
Read's
> graphic
> forms, it has to be admitted that they are no more easier to
write
> than standard
> letters, and perhaps Read came to feel that way too. What else
would
> be the
> reason for his three attempts to get it right (or were they just
> alternatives?).

Paul:

Your comment regarding Read tinkering with the alphabets to turn them
into a "personal shorthand" seems off the mark to me. Do you view
Shavian as a personal shorthand? While Quikscript may be faster to
write than Shavian because it is easy to connect letters to each other
that does not give it the characteristics of a successful shorthand --
i.e. the ability to take down spoken speech at normal speeds.. Read's
last alphabet, which reverted to Roman letters, certainly was not a
shorthand.

Paige

paul vandenbrink wrote:

>
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. as to your last question about Kingsley Read, I expect that as
> he made more and more use of each of the different versions of the
> Alphabets, he attempted to refine the structure, to make it more
> easy to use as a personal Shorthand.
> Unfortunately as a result, his constant tinkering tends to weaken
> the obvious benefits of his original Shavian Alphabet.
>
> *
> 1
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You see? Tinkering isn't always the answer, we are the few and faithful who believe that Shavian is a better alternative to the "broken" TO. We have to believe that it's not broken itself.

If thy gallbladder offends thee, cut it out.
--Star, who is now recovering from an offending gallbladder.

=========
"Oh, how awful. Did he at least die painlessly? To shreds, you say. Well, how is his wife holding up? To shreds, you say."
--Professor Hubert Farnsworth, Futurama

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

----- Original Message ----
From: Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@...>
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 7, 2007 10:51:18 AM
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Re: standard spelling with shavian













Paul:



Your comment regarding Read tinkering with the alphabets to turn them

into a "personal shorthand" seems off the mark to me. Do you view

Shavian as a personal shorthand? While Quikscript may be faster to

write than Shavian because it is easy to connect letters to each other

that does not give it the characteristics of a successful shorthand --

i.e. the ability to take down spoken speech at normal speeds.. Read's

last alphabet, which reverted to Roman letters, certainly was not a

shorthand.



Paige



paul vandenbrink wrote:



>

> Regards, Paul V.

> P.S. as to your last question about Kingsley Read, I expect that as

> he made more and more use of each of the different versions of the

> Alphabets, he attempted to refine the structure, to make it more

> easy to use as a personal Shorthand.

> Unfortunately as a result, his constant tinkering tends to weaken

> the obvious benefits of his original Shavian Alphabet.

>

> *

> 1

> New Files

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