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>
> (Though he does add,
>
> "But by all means _write_ as you think fit, and leave experts to
> standardize printers' spelling.")
>
> Basically, my interpretation of this is that a text intended for a
> publication for a wide audience is better off using a standardised
> spelling, rather than to use a spelling representing "the [speech]
> you
> use every day", though that is fine for more personal missives such
> as
> letters or messages to a mailing list -- and I've taken "Northern
> English" as a _de facto_ basis for such a standardised spelling, on
> the basis of the passage above. (Which, by a happy coincidence, is
> fairly close to my own speech *cough*, though I believe it merges
> TRAP
> and BATH, which I keep separate.)
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
>

Right, and in that case, I don't count myself as an expert, and being a
rather inexperienced American, I couldn't tell you the difference
really between King George V's English, QEII's english, or that of John
Cleese. However, I can tell you that the midwestern american is the
clear favorite for American RP, and I can tell you where practically
anyone in the south learned to speak by state if not by county or even
valley in the case of the Appalachians. My own home town was the
subject of some debate, name wise and was on the national news at one
point. Maryville? Mar-uh-vul? Murvuhl?

Returning from my tangent, I think I'd rather leave standardization to
the experts (of which I am not one) and at least get our number to
settle on those few of our debate points and focus on building a
database of transliterated works to add to our own ability to read and
write the darn thing. Now where did I put that keyboard arrangement
again :)

--Star

=========
"Oh, how awful. Did he at least die painlessly? To shreds, you say. Well, how is his wife holding up? To shreds, you say."
--Professor Hubert Farnsworth, Futurama

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How true how true, and in the same way my english teacher pronounced
Mephistopholese as "Meh-fist-oh-phylis" I figure we'll work it out or
ask our local religious person how they pronounce it.

--Star, also in K-ville, TN

--- RSRICHMOND@... wrote:

> Not the least of problems in transliterating the English Bible into
> Shaw Alphabet is pronouncing all those unfamiliar biblical names the
> Hebrew Bible bristles with - the long strings of begats, the names of
>
> tribal chieftains, and such.
>
> Each of these names has a received English pronunciation, though I
> understand there was disagreement about a good many of them. The
> Gideon
> Bible in my hotel room, a King James of course, marks syllabic accent
>
> but nothing else. A "pronouncing King James" - I have one at home -
> gives a full pronunciation, using a complex diacritical markup - if
> the
> font has a name I've never found it - that has largely disappeared
> from
> dictionaries, and is probably quite a challenge to learn if you
> didn't
> learn it as a child, as I did around 1948.
>
> I'd certainly use the English received pronunciation of obscure
> Biblical names, rather than trying to conform to the original Hebrew
> or
> to an imagined Latin.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville, Tennessee
>
________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
> free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>


=========
"Oh, how awful. Did he at least die painlessly? To shreds, you say. Well, how is his wife holding up? To shreds, you say."
--Professor Hubert Farnsworth, Futurama

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad



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Were I to try to transliterate part of the Bible, I should begin with
The New Testament In Scots (the one where the Deil speaks English).
Sample (from front cover of Penguin edition):
GIN I SPEAK WI THE TUNGS O MEN AN ANGELS BUT HAE NAE LUVE I MY HAIRT
I AM NO NANE BETTER NOR DUNNERIN BRESS OR A RINGIN CYMBAL
The translator, W. L. Lorimer, has attempted a synthesis of Scottish
dialects, and it is a delight to see the familiar text in fresh
clothes. Note that Scots (Lallands, Doric, the language of Burns,
Sassenach) has not been standardised in the way of literary English.
There is no need for uniformity.
Note that Shaw, as dramatist, needed to assign social and regional
dialects to his characters. This is done through various methods in
the typography. Without such variety the plays would sound monotonous.
It is not necessary for a character to speak dialect all the time. In
fact one or two stock phrases are enough to label the character, if
used sparsely. Cockneys don't have to drop all their aitches. (Horace
complained of that in Roman dialects - there seems to be something
special about capital cities.)
And these are just a few of the things to consider when writing
Shavian. Here's another: how do you write bad Shavian, suggesting
someone uncultivated and ignorant? The French convention is to write
correct spoken French, omitting all the silent letters and
grammatical endings. Good Shavian practice, in other words. Ironical,
no?
jb

Interesting thoughts, JB, I personally will start with my favorite
book, Leviticus. Don't ask me why, it's just an interesting book of
Mosean laws. I think I'll translate it into my own strange cross of RP
and Southern American. I'm talking to my husband who does
computery-web-thingies like online databasing, and I'm figuring out the
best way for us to conglomerate a large project like the bible or any
other book. I think I have a way of doing it where the whole group can
add pieces of books ect.

--Star

--- John Burrows <burrows@...> wrote:

> Were I to try to transliterate part of the Bible, I should begin with
>
> The New Testament In Scots (the one where the Deil speaks English).
> Sample (from front cover of Penguin edition):
> GIN I SPEAK WI THE TUNGS O MEN AN ANGELS BUT HAE NAE LUVE I MY HAIRT
>
> I AM NO NANE BETTER NOR DUNNERIN BRESS OR A RINGIN CYMBAL
> The translator, W. L. Lorimer, has attempted a synthesis of Scottish
>
> dialects, and it is a delight to see the familiar text in fresh
> clothes. Note that Scots (Lallands, Doric, the language of Burns,
> Sassenach) has not been standardised in the way of literary English.
>
> There is no need for uniformity.
> Note that Shaw, as dramatist, needed to assign social and regional
> dialects to his characters. This is done through various methods in
> the typography. Without such variety the plays would sound
> monotonous.
> It is not necessary for a character to speak dialect all the time. In
>
> fact one or two stock phrases are enough to label the character, if
> used sparsely. Cockneys don't have to drop all their aitches. (Horace
>
> complained of that in Roman dialects - there seems to be something
> special about capital cities.)
> And these are just a few of the things to consider when writing
> Shavian. Here's another: how do you write bad Shavian, suggesting
> someone uncultivated and ignorant? The French convention is to write
>
> correct spoken French, omitting all the silent letters and
> grammatical endings. Good Shavian practice, in other words. Ironical,
>
> no?
> jb
>
>


=========
"Oh, how awful. Did he at least die painlessly? To shreds, you say. Well, how is his wife holding up? To shreds, you say."
--Professor Hubert Farnsworth, Futurama

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad



____________________________________________________________________________________
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Hi DaShep
First the stress for me is not alaways on the first syllable.
I would say,
ser-CHING for thur-a-STY per-pal tur-tals.
Both "pur" and "tur" seem to be insufficiently stressed to give them
the primary stress in my accent.
And certainly not the accenuated and longer sound that I associate
with Err/Urge.
Two different things in my mind.
Perhaps you have a better example word.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Curious to hear how you represent the "er" sound.
You don't use the normal convention?
Are you into the Read Alphabet?
____________attached______________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
>
>
> Try this, in one-two syncopation:
>
> SEARCHing for THIRSty PURple TURtles.
>
> Wouldn't you agree that the first syllable, as is common in
English,
> receives more emphasis than the second? If so, then there is a need
> for a stressed er-sound, because if not, the above sentence would
> contain no stressed vowels.
>
> Of course, it is a little peculiar for me to be making this point,
as I
> do not use the Shavian letter for 'err' anyway, preferring a
substitute.
> Still, it contains a stressed vowel.
>
> syncopatedly,
> dshep
>

Hi Star
It is not really a problem for a Theology student.
We can go back to the original Hebrew or Greek pronunciation,
if there isn't an accepted English pronunciation (RP or otherwise).
I wouldn't use Latin myself, but perhaps for certain Christian
names.
Let me know which word pronunciation you need?
Regards, Paul V.
__________________attached_________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
> How true how true, and in the same way my english teacher
pronounced
> Mephistopholese as "Meh-fist-oh-phylis"
> I figure we'll work it out or
> ask our local religious person how they pronounce it.
______________________attached______________________
> > Not the least of problems in transliterating the English Bible into
> > Shaw Alphabet is pronouncing all those unfamiliar biblical names
the
> > Hebrew Bible bristles with - the long strings of begats, the names of
> >
> > tribal chieftains, and such.
> >
> > Each of these names has a received English pronunciation, though
I
> > understand there was disagreement about a good many of them.
The
> > Gideon
> > Bible in my hotel room, a King James of course, marks syllabic
accent
> >
> > but nothing else. A "pronouncing King James" - I have one at
home -
> > gives a full pronunciation, using a complex diacritical markup - if
> > the
> > font has a name I've never found it - that has largely disappeared
> > from
> > dictionaries, and is probably quite a challenge to learn if you
> > didn't
> > learn it as a child, as I did around 1948.
> >
> > I'd certainly use the English received pronunciation of obscure
> > Biblical names, rather than trying to conform to the original Hebrew
> > or
> > to an imagined Latin.

a kwescon abQt 4:

??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI"

hM wer HIz pIpel?

-----------lin jansen: histnjeog@...

_______________________________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, lin jansen <histnjeog@...> wrote:
>
> in rIdiN /ITAn'z trAnsliterESon (liNks):
> F hAv a kwescon abQt Jenesis 4:
> hM iz referd t bF H wOrdz "evri won"???
>
> 4:14 bIhOld, HQ hAst drivan mI Qt His dE frum Hu fEs uv HI xT; And
frum HF fEs SAl F bI hid; And F SAl bI u fVJitiv And u vAgubynd in HI
xT; And it SAl kum tM pAs, HAt evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI SAl slE mI.
>
> ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI" hM wer HIz pIpel?
> -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@...
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your own web address.
> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
>

hF /kristal
mF pDsanAl upinyun, iz HAt H pIpal HAt hI felt
respynsibal fP n hM hI rIct Qt t wD H pP sinxz
n Qtkasts v H /JViS pIpal liviN in /izrAel.
esenSylI, menI JVz in /IzrAel At HAt tFm hAd
bakum eksklVdad frum PgAnIzd reliJan n nIdad help
rIkOnektiN t /gYd. wut wiT H trubald pOlitakAl
tFmz kulminEtiN in H destrukSun v H tempal,
V kAn sI wF.
________________atAct_______________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "krstl quinn" <kris.quin@...>
wrote:
>
>
> a kwescon abQt 4:
>
> ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI"
>
> hM wer HIz pIpel?
>
> -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, lin jansen <histnjeog@> wrote:
> >
> > in rIdiN /ITAn'z trAnsliterESon (liNks):
> > F hAv a kwescon abQt Jenesis 4:
> > hM iz referd t bF H wOrdz "evri won"???
> >
> > 4:14 bIhOld, HQ hAst drivan mI Qt His dE frum Hu fEs uv HI xT;
And
> frum HF fEs SAl F bI hid; And F SAl bI u fVJitiv And u vAgubynd in
HI
> xT; And it SAl kum tM pAs, HAt evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI SAl slE mI.
> >
> > ??? "evrI wun HAt fFndiT mI" hM wer HIz pIpel?
> > -----------lin jansen: histnjeog@
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Get your own web address.
> > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
> >
>

I guess it is a common problem.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
> hF /filap
> F ofan mEk H sEm misTEk v rFtiN "HANks" insted v H mP
> kPekt prOnunsIESun v "TANks".
> F wil bI mP kXfal in H fVcD.
> duz eny wun els ramembD H mMvI, "Thank you all very much"
> "TANk V Yl vXI muc"
> wiT /sAndI /denis.
> it wuz set i /INglAnd but H /brits
> in H m<vI wD sO un-apEliN, HAt F wundxd
> if it evan gyt ralIst in /INglAnd.
> sI a sumDI v H mMvI in H pOst skript.
> F Tqt it wuz muc betD, HAn "swIt /nOvembD" P a "kOld dE in H
> pRk".
>
> ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
>
> /pI. /es.
> H mMvI "TaNk V Yl vXI muc" iz YlsO titled "a tuc v luv".
> His mMvI ralEts H stPI v a wUman hM dasFdz t kIp n rEz a bEbI
> bPn Qt v wedlyk. it iz a vXI gUd stPI.
> /sAndI /denis starz az /ryzalind, a grAdVet stMdent,
> hM haz a brIf afX wiT a telaviZan brydcastD,
> /JPJ plEd bF /Ian /mikelan).
> wen SI lxnz TAt SI iz pregnunt, hD frendz Yl udvFz hD
> t hAv an abPSun, but aftD sum cunfVZun SI dasFdz t hAv H cFld.
> SI duzant tel /JPJ abQt it, and HE lMz tuc.
> hD cFald iz bPn, but H lital gDal hAz a hRt cundiSun
> n Hen must undDgO delakut sRJarI.
> hD dytxz lFf iz avenValI sEvd, n /ryzalind pDsAvCz t
> cumplIt hD dyktDal dagrI.
> hD dytD iz a yC O0d we /ryzalind mIts /JPJ agEn
> n invFts him t hD hOm.
> hI rekegnFzaz HAt H bEbI iz prybablI hiz dytD,
> but cMzaz t avqd dIaliN wiT H sitVESun, P Ivan AskiN
> H YvIas kwestjun.
> H stPI wuz ritan bF /mRgDet /drAbal frum hD On nyval,
> h /milstOn.
> ____________________________attached__________________
> [shavian] Re: Web site question (again)
>
> F YlwEz spelt 'HANks' wiH a 'H' bikoz HAt's H wE F'v YlwEz spOkan
> it, n nO wun hAz evD karektid mI bifP... but nQ V pqnt it Qt, it
> iznt spelt HAt wE in '/AndraklIz n H lFan'. fxHDmP, evriwun F'v
hxd
> from (wiH rigRd t SEvian) spelz it difDantli frum mI. F ges F'm a
> mFnoriti hC, sO fP stAndDdFzESan'z sEk F SAl trF t spel it wiH
a 'T'
> in fVcD (but F'l stil sE it wiH a 'H').
>
> TANks,
>
> /hV
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Philip Newton [mailto:Philip.Newton@]
> > To: Hugh Birkenhead
> > Subject: Re: [shavian] Web site question (again)
> > Why do you always spell "thanks" with an initial 'H' instead
> of 'T'?
> > (Making the initial sound that of "that" rather than "thank" --
> sorry,
> > I don't know the names of the letters by heart).
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Philip
>

Hi Quozl
It has been a while.
Anyway as far as Keyboard mapping goes there is no strict standard.
We use the current Keyboard mapping, simply because it iz easy to
remember when typing and it is even easier to read, even if you are
not able to display the letters in a Shavian font.
I would only suggest using a different Capital letter to represent the
missing Slash symbol. To minimize confusion it is always better to add
something rather than change the meaning of an existingly known Key.
You also want to exagerate the size the new Slash Symbol, to prevent
confusion with "woe".

Regards, Paul V.
___________________________attached______________________
Due to the namer dot being on the forward-slash key, it means that
there's no puncuational forward-slash that is usable with Shavian
fonts.
Granted, it's very similar to "Woe", and by eliminating it,
we do eliminate any confusion between those 2 symbols,
but the slash does serve a useful punctuational purpose.

In particular, I am thinking of fractions (i.e. 1/2 2/3, etc)
and to indicate a more specific meaning, using a a word pair.
(i.e. I think of her as funny/ha-ha, not funny/peculiar.)
I hope others are familar with thsse usages?

My proposal is to move the namer dot to an alternate, unused key,
like "G"
(which Ross DeMeyere uses in the "Androcles" font), and restore the
forward
slash, either as a "short" Shavian character or as tall & deep as
the "tall" &
"deep" letters, combined... Thoughts?

D.M.Falk, aka Quozl