YahooGroup Archive

From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2007-05-07 17:21:06 #
Subject: Re: standard spelling with shavian

Toggle Shavian

Hi Paige
My mistake.
I was not aware that Read's last alphabet reverted to Roman letters.
In fact, I was looking at some of the earlier changes from Shavian
to the Read Alphabet, and assumed that they were made to make the
cursive writing smoother and easier.
My definition of Shorthand is a system of rapid handwriting
employing additional symbols to represent words, phrases
in an economical easy to write way, that is faster than normal
cursive script.
A Shorthand also incorporates a simple method of making
Abbreviations.
At the time, that Kingsley Read was introducing these changes to the
Read Alphabet, the possibility of word processing with multiple
fonts/alphabets for a single document did not as yet exist.

His object seemed to be to produce a simple method of writing that
significantly reduced the number of symbols needed to record English
text to 60% of what was required using the Roman Alphabet.
Sorry if was using the word Shorthand in an inexact way.
Regards, Paul V.
+++++++++++++attached++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@...>
wrote:
>> Your comment regarding Read tinkering with the alphabets to turn
them
> into a "personal shorthand" seems off the mark to me. Do you view
> Shavian as a personal shorthand? While Quikscript may be faster
to
> write than Shavian because it is easy to connect letters to each
other
> that does not give it the characteristics of a successful
shorthand --
> i.e. the ability to take down spoken speech at normal speeds..
Read's
> last alphabet, which reverted to Roman letters, certainly was not
a
> shorthand.
>
> Paige
>
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > P.S. as to your last question about Kingsley Read, I expect that
as
> > he made more and more use of each of the different versions of
the
> > Alphabets, he attempted to refine the structure, to make it more
> > easy to use as a personal Shorthand.
> > Unfortunately as a result, his constant tinkering tends to weaken
> > the obvious benefits of his original Shavian Alphabet.
> >
> > *
> > 1
> > New Files
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJoMmk4OG
FhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzOTQ5MDI2BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEzNjM4MgRzZWM
DdnRsBHNsawN2ZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTE3ODUzMTE1Mg-->
> >
> > Visit Your Group
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet;_ylc=X3oDMTJmaGZxNmRoBF9T
Azk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzOTQ5MDI2BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEzNjM4MgRzZWMDdnRsB
HNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExNzg1MzExNTI->
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> > * Corporate culture
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNzY1M3ZuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF
9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTM5NDkwMjYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTM2MzgyBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGl
tZQMxMTc4NTMxMTUy?
t=ms&k=Corporate+culture&w1=Corporate+culture&w2=Tissue+culture&w3=Sh
aw&w4=Alphabet&c=4&s=67&g=2&.sig=KOAFKE_mkAPpDnT41adUSA>
> > * Tissue culture
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMnJkbXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF
9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTM5NDkwMjYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTM2MzgyBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGl
tZQMxMTc4NTMxMTUy?
t=ms&k=Tissue+culture&w1=Corporate+culture&w2=Tissue+culture&w3=Shaw&
w4=Alphabet&c=4&s=67&g=2&.sig=ZLmKIJzoogoWMcwotRZimA>
> > * Shaw
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkY2dnMWw1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF
9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMTM5NDkwMjYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTM2MzgyBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGl
tZQMxMTc4NTMxMTUy?
t=ms&k=Shaw&w1=Corporate+culture&w2=Tissue+culture&w3=Shaw&w4=Alphabe
t&c=4&s=67&g=2&.sig=ALPrdJvBfpx69ULU-UJ7ug>
> > * Alphabet
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdWE0a201BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF
9wAzQEZ3JwSWQDMTM5NDkwMjYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTM2MzgyBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGl
tZQMxMTc4NTMxMTUy?
t=ms&k=Alphabet&w1=Corporate+culture&w2=Tissue+culture&w3=Shaw&w4=Alp
habet&c=4&s=67&g=2&.sig=U2-90wzsXi5GcN-vgv4Alw>
> >
> > Got Yodel?
> >
> > Best Yahoo! Yodel
> >
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j1829he/M=493064.10322722.10977640.970
6568/D=groups/S=1705136382:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1178538352/A=4438979/R=0/SI
G=111c4ieer/*http://www.bix.com/contest/5416>
> >
> > Give us your best
> >
> > yodel and win!
> >
> > Yahoo! Finance
> >
> > It's Now Personal
> >
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jhrtfeb/M=493064.10512181.11138666.867
4578/D=groups/S=1705136382:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1178538352/A=4507179/R=0/SI
G=12de4rskk/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=50284/*http://finance.yahoo.c
om/personal-finance>
> >
> > Guides, news,
> >
> > advice & more.
> >
> > Yahoo! Mail
> >
> > You're invited!
> >
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ickqmdr/M=493064.9803214.10510208.8674
578/D=groups/S=1705136382:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1178538352/A=3848569/R=0/SIG
=12jcbehhh/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42410/*http://advision.webeven
ts.yahoo.com/handraisers>
> >
> > Try the all-new
> >
> > Yahoo! Mail Beta
> >
> > . _,_._,___
>

From: dshep <dshep@...>
Date: 2007-05-10 04:33:38 #
Subject: Re: Standard spelling with Shavian

Toggle Shavian

Re: Standard spelling with Shavian

New mom Star wondered:

> Your point, I believe (is) that we have (in the Shavian alphabet) the
> stressed /ur/ sound as in URGE, and the /schwer/ or /schwa+r/
> sound.

Yes

> I am a big proponant of the unstressed letters, and I belive the
> original point of the schwa and the schwer included in the alphabet
> is to allow for stress

So am I. And I too believe that is exactly why such letters were
included.

> I think I'm missing the debate point.

No, that was it, whether or not stressed and unstressed versions of
the same vowel are to be found in, for example, the words “murmur,
merger, worker, lurker, shirker,” and others. PV doubts this, or
doesn’t hear the difference, or thinks it isn’t important, or something.

> What's your substitute?

I just use vowel plus the r-sign for stressed r-affected vowels ,
which means five less keyboard positions for my less than nimble mind
to recall. This vowel+r combination is then treated exactly the same
way as we do today with the standard alphabet; that is, the \r\
(which is not the same as an initial \r\ in anyone's speech) modifies
the preceding vowel either by altering the quality or the length,
depending upon whether one's speech is rhotic or not. So, no new
habits need be acquired; think: "rusty car." It is also the method
used by the Chambers Dictionary, which just might be the closest to
Northern English.

Regarding all r-vowels as equals eliminates the contrast between
those designated by a special letter: “ear/are/or/err/air,” the
latter two unhappily transposed, and those sounds for which there is
no special letter: “ire/our/tour/ore.” It also allows me to
distinguish between the vowels of “where” and “there." Other
possibilities exist as well.

belatedly,
dshep

From: dshep <dshep@...>
Date: 2007-05-10 04:33:49 #
Subject: Re: standard spelling with shavian

Toggle Shavian

Re: standard spelling with shavian

Star also wrote:

> You see? Tinkering isn't always the answer, we are the few and
faithful who > believe that Shavian is a better alternative to the
"broken" TO. We have to > believe that it's not broken itself.

Of course, everyone else in the English-speaking world would probably
regard what we are trying to do in this group as tinkering; tinkering
with a perfectly good writing system that hundreds of millions of
people use.

Tinker away, I say!
dshep

From: dshep <dshep@...>
Date: 2007-05-10 05:22:34 #
Subject: Re: standard spelling with shavian

Toggle Shavian

paul vandenbrink declared:

> As for the fact that the Oxford Canadian dictionary indicates in its

> > pronunciation key the existence of what must be the short-o in
words of
> > the "what/pot" group of words,

> I would disregard this. You have to see if that backward "a"
symbol is ever in > fact used in any common Canadian English words.
In Canada, "what" is > pronounced "wut".

What! (or should I say Whut?). Disregard an Oxford dictionary? You
can expect a late-night knock on your door from an Oxford hit-squad
specially trained to deal with "disregarders."

> In Ontario and Western Canada, where the majority of the English
> Speakers live American pronunciation is beginning to pre-dominate.

Coca-Cola Imperialism! To be resisted, resented, or lamented. At
least, that's what most affected countries do. They do so in Quebec,
don't they?

. . . . . . .

I wonder though what Shaw would have thought about today's OED. The
edition available in his day, the 1st, was much more inclusive than
today's version, which recognizes only narrow RP. I think he would
have vigorously complained. At any rate he wrote frequently to the
Times and other journals mocking what he called the "Oxford accent",
an accent it would appear he considered artificial, contrived, and
deliberately used to mark class distinctions. Since then however, RP,
or modified RP as it is sometimes called, has become pretty much the
standard speech-form of most university students in Britain today,
unless they are Scots or Welsh nationalists.

dshep

From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
Date: 2007-05-10 12:53:36 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Re: standard spelling with shavian

Toggle Shavian

I claim that I was high on percocet when I wrote that, having just had my gallbladder removed. Yes, we should tinker and we should get it right, and then we should set our ideas down in soft stone so that we present a small but united front for change and let the pros get their hands on it to do what we could not, which is set things down and spread it to a wider audience.

--Star

========="Oh, how awful. Did he at least die painlessly? To shreds, you say. Well, how is his wife holding up? To shreds, you say."
--Professor Hubert Farnsworth, Futurama

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

----- Original Message ----
From: dshep <dshep@...>
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 12:33:38 AM
Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: standard spelling with shavian

Re: standard spelling with shavian

Star also wrote:

> You see? Tinkering isn't always the answer, we are the few and faithful who > believe that Shavian is a better alternative to the "broken" TO. We have to > believe that it's not broken itself.

Of course, everyone else in the English-speaking world would probably regard what we are trying to do in this group as tinkering; tinkering with a perfectly good writing system that hundreds of millions of people use.

Tinker away, I say!
dshep



____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097

From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2007-05-11 22:53:49 #
Subject: Re: Standard spelling with Shavian

Toggle Shavian

Hi Dashep & Star
I checked with Paul and in fact he also believes that there are
stressed and unstressed versions of the same r-based vowel sound
which can be found in many common English words.

Unfortunately, He is unable to discern any rhymne or reason as to
which syllable with the r-based vowel sound gets the stress.
He does find it hard to hear the difference in some words.
It seems to be simply the length of the Vowel sound.
He has to say the word to himself over and over until he can hear
the difference.
And there seems to be a lot of variation in whether the syllable
gets this stress between different speakers.
It is not nearly as consistent as the Rhotic / Non Rhotic
distinction.
So he hesitates to impose on a ESL English speaker, the necessity
of differentiating between these 2 sounds. These 2 sounds Array and
Err(Urge) seem to be like twins who occasionaly change places with
none the wiser.

But as always, he attempts to go with the Majority opinion in these
matters.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Congratulations Star for the new celestial object
_____________attached____________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
> New mom Star wondered:
>
> > Your point, I believe (is) that we have (in the Shavian
alphabet) the
> > stressed /ur/ sound as in URGE, and the /schwer/ or /schwa+r/
> > sound.
>
> Yes
>
> > I am a big proponant of the unstressed letters, and I belive
the
> > original point of the schwa and the schwer included in the
alphabet
> > is to allow for stress
>
> So am I. And I too believe that is exactly why such letters were
> included.
>
> > I think I'm missing the debate point.
>
> No, that was it, whether or not stressed and unstressed versions
of
> the same vowel are to be found in, for example, the
words "murmur,
> merger, worker, lurker, shirker," and others. PV doubts this, or
> doesn't hear the difference, or thinks it isn't important, or
something.

From: dshep <dshep@...>
Date: 2007-05-12 03:30:41 #
Subject: Re: standard spelling with shavian

Toggle Shavian

--- Star Raven explained that:

> I was high on percocet when I wrote that, having just
> had my gallbladder removed.

y -- pMr V! woz it pEnfal?

Ha rIzan for gYl blAdDz eskEps

mI, but wI sIm ta bI Ebal ta

liv wiHQt Ham.

mE V rakuvD kwikli,
/dSep

From: dshep <dshep@...>
Date: 2007-05-14 02:37:18 #
Subject: Re: Standard spelling with Shavian

Toggle Shavian

--- Paul Vandenbrink responds that:

> he also believes that there are stressed and
> unstressed versions of the same r-based vowel
> sound which can be found in many common
> English words.

> Unfortunately, He is unable to discern any
> rhyme or reason as to which syllable with
> the r-based vowel sound gets the stress.
> He does find it hard to hear the difference
> in some words. It seems to be simply the
> length of the Vowel sound. He has to say
> the word to himself over and over until he
> can hear the difference.

> ... ...

> But as always, he attempts to go with the
> Majority opinion in these matters.

I don't think that you should have to feel forced in this
matter: if you don't hear it, you don't hear it — and
should write accordingly. I only meant to bring the
subject up for discussion as it is I think an interesting
topic. Besides, Star and I may not represent the majority;
for example we are I believe the only two who advocate
the retention of an aspiration in words of the "what/when/
where/why" category. This was once a majority opinion,
I am certain, as the pronunciation "wot" was earlier
regarded as something of a shibboleth. I can claim age,
while Star will have to find another excuse. Incidentally,
that series of words comprise the basic instruction for
journalists and historians (follow the first three and be
careful with the fourth).

w(h)ishing everyone w(h)ell,
dshep

From: "yahya_melb" <yahya@...>
Date: 2007-05-14 15:01:48 #
Subject: Re: Standard spelling with Shavian

Toggle Shavian

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:

[snip]

> > But as always, he attempts to go with the
> > Majority opinion in these matters.
>
>
> I don't think that you should have to feel forced in this
> matter: if you don't hear it, you don't hear it — and
> should write accordingly. I only meant to bring the
> subject up for discussion as it is I think an interesting
> topic. Besides, Star and I may not represent the majority;
> for example we are I believe the only two who advocate
> the retention of an aspiration in words of the "what/when/
> where/why" category. This was once a majority opinion,
> I am certain, as the pronunciation "wot" was earlier
> regarded as something of a shibboleth. I can claim age,
> while Star will have to find another excuse. Incidentally,
> that series of words comprise the basic instruction for
> journalists and historians (follow the first three and be
> careful with the fourth).
>
> w(h)ishing everyone w(h)ell,
> dshep

;-)

FTR, I totally agree with keeping the aspiration. In formal
and careful speech, it would be totally inappropriate in most
places in Australia to use /w/ where the pronunciation
indicated by the (strangely reversed) spelling "wh" is /hw/.
True, amongst ourselves, informally, some of us get careless
and revert to /w/, but the "wh" spelling still reflects actual
usage for certain social situations and groups.

Regards,
YaHya (wHo lives in Melbourne, Australia)

PS - And yes, there's an "h" in my name, but very few Aussies can
pronounce it in a medial intervocalic position; funnily, tho,
they have no trouble saying "It's so hot!" - YA

From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
Date: 2007-05-14 16:54:24 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Re: standard spelling with shavian

Toggle Shavian

Gall bladders store bile to help process fatty and greasy foods. The liver, however, produces bile all the time, so digestion is not affected when the gallbladder is removed. I had it done laporoscopically which means instead of one long scar, a hospital stay and a long recovery, I have four cat scratches, came home the same day, and felt better a week later than I have in MONTHS!!! I took far less than the recommended dose of percocet, and now I'm back on top of my game.

Thanks for the well wishes!
--Star

========="Oh, how awful. Did he at least die painlessly? To shreds, you say. Well, how is his wife holding up? To shreds, you say."
--Professor Hubert Farnsworth, Futurama

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

----- Original Message ----
From: dshep <dshep@...>
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 11:25:11 PM
Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: standard spelling with shavian

--- Star Raven explained that:

> I was high on percocet when I wrote that, having just
> had my gallbladder removed.

y -- pMr V! woz it pEnfal?

Ha rIzan for gYl blAdDz eskEps

mI, but wI sIm ta bI Ebal ta

liv wiHQt Ham.

mE V rakuvD kwikli,
/dSep



____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/

Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser